COMMITTEE ON PROCEDURE AND PRIVILEGES (Sub-Committee on Seanad Reform) debate -
Thursday, 18 Sep 2003

Vol. 1 No. 3

Presentation by Trinity College.

Witnesses: Dr. John Hegarty, Professor Roger Stalley, Dr. Gerard Hogan and Mrs. Jean O'Hara.

Chairman

I welcome the representatives from Trinity College. We are an all-party sub-committee charged with considering the issue of Seanad reform. My colleagues are Senators Dardis, Brian Hayes, Ryan and O'Toole. We are grateful to our guests for the submission they put forward, for the care they put into its compilation and coming here today. It has been a lively week for the sub-committee and I have every expectation that this interchange will be lively.

Members of the sub-committee enjoy absolute privilege, while witnesses before it enjoy only qualified privilege. However, I am sure it will not come to such privilege being used. There are 20 minutes set aside for this slot. We have read the submission and would welcome it if the Provost would provide a synopsis and if his colleagues would also contribute. The main questioners on behalf of the sub-committee will be Senators Ryan and Dardis. However, all members will contribute.

Dr. Hegarty

I thank the Chairman for allowing us to come before the sub-committee to discuss this matter. We established a small group within Trinity, chaired by the registrar, Professor Stalley, one of the other members of which was Dr.Gerard Hogan, our expert on constitutional law, with whom, I presume, members are familiar.

As time is short, I will get straight to the point. With regard to university representation, we are proud of the way that the Dublin University Senators have contributed to the Seanad over the years. I would say the same about those Senators who have represented the NUI. As was noted previously by the all-party committee on the Constitution, the university contribution has been exceptional. That contribution has also been independent in nature and close to de Valera's concept of a Seanad based on the vocational sectors. It is my view that of all the constituencies in the Seanad, that represented by the universities has worked best. We would all agree that reform is necessary. In considering such reform, it would be our view that focusing on the areas that have not worked should be given high priority. The contribution of the university sector has worked and rather than trying to change that, we believe it would be most useful to build upon it.

We recognise that the current position is different from that which obtained in 1937. There were two universities then, there are many more now. The higher education sector has expanded to include all sorts of institutions. We would favour increasing the numerical representation from the higher education sector as a whole, not just the universities. In terms of achieving this, we would not see it as happening at the expense of the other panels in the Seanad. Neither do we see the overall number of Members of the Seanad, 60, as sacrosanct. An expansion of the total membership of the House should be considered. As members might expect, we favour retaining the number of Dublin University Senators at three for a number of reasons. One of these is viability. The election process is complicated and expensive and to be viable it needs to involve the election of more than one Senator. The historical connections Dublin University or Trinity College has had throughout the country are also important, particularly, as members will be aware, those with Northern Ireland.

Our view is that we should build on what has worked well and that the Seanad should be expanded and made more inclusive.

Chairman

I thank the Provost and ask Senator Ryan to put forward any questions he may wish to pose.

Senator Ryan

I thank the Provost for his presentation and welcome him and his colleagues to these proceedings. Since 1981 I have enjoyed the company of and the challenge of working with a variety of Senators representing Dublin University. I believe all of them are friends of mine and none is a rival as a result of the fact that there is a certain ease about the fact that they occupy a separate constituency.

Senator Dardis

Is the Senator uneasy about having Senator O'Toole sitting beside him?

Senator Ryan

No, I got used to him.

I am not precisely clear about what the representatives from Trinity College think should be the future of the third level or graduate constituency. Do they believe there should be more seats to cater for the new institutions or that - many are coming around to this view - there should be a single constituency, comprising the existing six seats, in which all graduates would have a vote? Our guests are obviously worried that the latter would dilute Trinity College's unique position. Perhaps they are still considering the matter but will they indicate what they would most like to see emerge, particularly in the light of the fact that they accept that graduates of all recognised institutions should have a vote? Have they thought about a structure within which this could be achieved?

Dr. Hegarty

The Senator referred to the dilution of the Trinity representation. Having a single and much enlarged constituency would certainly achieve this. It would also, perhaps, endanger the independence of the sector by creating one large constituency because it would be more like a political process.

Senator Ryan

I read the submission and I am aware of that. I am not clear about that of which the representatives are in favour.

Dr. Hegarty

Six Senators are currently elected under the two university structures. We would favour expanding this and advocate that Trinity would retain its three Senators. The NUI will have its own view on this matter. We would have no difficulty with the current number being doubled.

Senator Ryan

Is it correct that the Provost believes the solution is to increase the number of seats?

Dr. Hegarty

Yes.

Senator Ryan

Why do our guests believe a large constituency would dilute the independence of the sector? Most practising politicians would come to the entirely opposite conclusion, namely, that the bigger the constituency, the smaller the quota required and the better the chances of an individual being able to outmanoeuvre party forces. All of our experience in the universities has been that the parties have never been able to get party candidates elected; people with party affiliations are elected. Without claiming credit for myself, it is more to do with the individuals than it is to do with the parties. Why do the representatives believe that Independent Senators would be less likely to be elected in a six seater constituency?

Dr. Hegarty

I will ask my colleagues to contribute at this stage in order that it is not just my view which is being put forward.

Professor Stalley

We discussed that matter at some length. Perhaps our apprehension was wrong, but we felt that with one very large constituency it would be extremely difficult and expensive for individuals or independent candidates to campaign. Our assumption was that without considerable backing from some source, it would be difficult for an independent candidate to get elected. Another aspect is that we are sensitive to the fact that the association with particular institutions matters. We would be sorry to see, in any new arrangement, a complete breach with the result that there would just be representatives of graduates and that would be all. I would see a link with not one but several institutions as a strength and something that we would like to maintain.

It is worth pointing out that the Dublin University constituency is not limited to Trinity College. There are various associated colleges and, as members will be aware from the previous presentation, for many years those in the Dublin Institute of Technology were awarded degrees from the Dublin University. As far as I am aware, between 8,000 and 9,000 of those on the register of electors for the Dublin University are graduates of the Dublin Institute of Technology. We are familiar with a somewhat broader church than merely that of Trinity College.

Senator Ryan

Does that very fact not give the lie to the professor's argument about the uniqueness of Trinity College, as one fifth of its present constituency might never have put a foot inside its gates other than for a conferring?

Dr. Hegarty

The association is still there in students' eyes. Part of my job is to meet graduates all over the world. Their association is strong. Dublin Institute of Technology graduates' association with Trinity is not as strong as direct graduates with Trinity but, nevertheless, their association is significant. The future I envisage for third level education in its broadest sense is that everybody, by and large, will go on to third level education. Therefore, the constituency will expand to include the whole country. It would, therefore, become meaningless.

Chairman

It would be much more democratic.

Senator Dardis

I thank the representatives for their attendance and submission. I wish to go in a different direction because there are nuances in the questioning of Senator Ryan about which we could argue. We are fortunate the registrar is present, as he has experience of these elections.

Professor Stalley

I am afraid I am a recent appointment.

Senator Dardis

Nevertheless, the professor probably has views on the organisation of elections and so on. I am interested, for instance, in the level of participation of graduates in the polls and the proportion of overseas voters. The representation of emigrants is a live issue in many submissions. Professor Stalley has practical knowledge of how this can be organised.

The sub-committee has also received many submissions regarding wider representation from Northern Ireland in the Seanad. Many Trinity graduates are resident in Northern Ireland. To what degree have they participated in the electoral process? One of the contentions put forward is that the reluctance of Unionists to participate in the electoral system might not be as great as it is thought to be because anecdotal evidence has been provided that the Unionist community participates in the election of Trinity College Members.

Chairman

The college's returning officer is in the Visitors Gallery.

Professor Stalley

Officially, the Provost is the returning officer.

Chairman

The person who does the work is in the Visitors Gallery.

Senator O’Toole

I ask the representatives not to give too much information on this issue to political parties. If they could speak in riddles, it would be helpful.

Professor Stalley

I cannot tell the sub-committee the precise proportion of non-resident graduates who voted but we have a breakdown of the register. There are approximately 42,000 graduates on the latest register, of whom 36,000 are resident in the Thirty-two Counties, with 6,000 resident outside Ireland. I cannot tell the sub-committee exactly what the proportion is of Northern Ireland graduates.

Senator B. Hayes

The point raised by Senator Dardis is interesting because the postal ballot has been used in the European scenario for a number of years. It would be interesting to know how many people in Northern Ireland avail of the opportunity to vote.

Senator Dardis

The college's submission also refers to not voting through registered post because a number of those targeted do not get their post. However, if the ballot were conducted through regular post, there would be more capacity for abuse.

Professor Stalley

That is unquestionably true but, on the other hand - it was particularly the case in the most recent election - there is a higher proportion of returns, that is, undelivered votes, and it is a reflection of the way people live - in flats, blocks of flats and so on. Registered post and personal signing has become difficult to operate. That suggestion came from the office that is handling this and it was seen as one of the issues that needed to be confronted.

Chairman

The submission is keen to retain Trinity's status in the Seanad. Its Members are excellent. Does the college operate an active enrolment process in regard to the electoral register? Are graduates encouraged to vote? Is the register modernised? Registrations officers call on houses, for example, prior to general and local elections. While the college could not do that, is there a way to pep up its electorate if it is keen to maintain its numbers in the Seanad?

Dr. Hegarty

I will hand that question over to Mrs. Jean O'Hara, who has been associated with this for many years.

Mrs. O’Hara

I am not the returning officer. The Seanad electoral register is a subsection of the register of alumni and, therefore, everybody who is on it is written to at least once a year, not necessarily in connection with elections, but on alumni matters. They receive a magazine. The file is updated on a daily basis. Therefore, it is an active file to encourage people to become electors. The Seanad electoral claim form is included in graduation packs.

Chairman

When one graduates.

Mrs. O’Hara

In the University of Dublin, candidates must apply to be conferred with a degree. They receive a pack of forms, one of which is the Seanad electoral claim form.

Chairman

Do they only get that once?

Mrs. O’Hara

They get it initially and can have it any other time because it——

Chairman

What percentage of the college's electors vote?

Professor Stalley

It was 36.99% in the last election, 44% in the previous election——

Mrs. O’Hara

It was 49% in the one before that.

Senator Dardis

Does Professor Stalley have details on the way the 6,000 graduates outside the jurisdiction voted?

Mrs. O’Hara

We cannot answer that. We could, given time, give the sub-committee figures regarding the number of envelopes that were returned from outside the jurisdiction. Otherwise, we would break the ballot.

Senator Dardis

However, Mrs. O'Hara does not see a problem organising a ballot outside the jurisdiction.

Mrs. O’Hara

No. I have been dealing with this since 1981 and there has not been a difficulty. Graduates are usually more active and are looking for more information.

Dr. Hegarty

One of the candidates in the last Seanad election was from Boston and involved in organising support in that constituency, which is outside Ireland.

Senator Dardis

The difficulty of canvassing the constituency outside Ireland had not occurred me and I fully accept it but it could be argued, in the case of Trinity, that if one were to canvass Montreal, Toronto, New York and so on, an attendant and similar cost would be involved.

Senator B. Hayes

Is the register of electors open to everyone or is it only open to candidates at the Seanad election?

Mrs. O’Hara

It is a public document that can be purchased. Under the recent legislation, we must have two registers, one of which is commercial and one of which is not, because we must now give all voters the option of not being included on the public register, if they so wish. That comes into force this year.

Chairman

The college has enthusiasm, based on history and precedent, for its seats. I do not mean this to be castigatory but is the same enthusiasm shown for the register and the attendant issues that provoke people to vote?

Dr. Hegarty

Folding them into the university and participating in everything the university does is a high priority. Keeping an association and an identity with the university is important. It will be more important to us in the future as funding decreases, for instance.

Chairman

Attracting alumni?

Dr. Hegarty

Yes. Part of that is being involved in Seanad elections. If they vote in Seanad elections, it is an indication of an increased level of interest in the university. They are part and parcel of the same thing for the future. It is very important for all universities in future. There is no third level sector as such. It is a very diversified sector. The richness for the country is in diversity, not making the whole sector uniform. The richness will come from diversity which is where we are coming from to a certain extent.

Senator Dardis

In the witnesses' experience in conducting elections, is there anything they would change in the way university elections are conducted, leaving aside who the constituents would be and so on?

Mrs. O’Hara

In this day and age, registered post is very difficult for An Post to administer because it must be signed for all along the way. This is especially so in Dublin where there are all these new apartment blocks and the postmen cannot get in to get signatures. It is a big difficulty.

Senator Dardis

What would Ms O'Hara's view be on electronic voting?

Mrs. O’Hara

I would not have a problem with electronic voting.

Dr. Hegarty

It is the way of the future.

Mrs. O’Hara

I have already asked the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government about it because, if the Seanad or the Government were to fund e-mail for life for graduates, it could become the electronic voting system and do away with all the cost of the election. It would be a once-off.

Chairman

I thank the witnesses for attending. It has been very interesting and forward-looking. We appreciate the submission and will give the witnesses' deliberations some thought when we come to our conclusions.

The witnesses withdrew.