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COMMITTEE ON PROCEDURE AND PRIVILEGES (Sub-Committee on Seanad Reform) debate -
Thursday, 18 Sep 2003

Vol. 1 No. 3

Presentation by Dublin City University.

Witnesses: Dr. Gary Murphy and Ms Eilís O'Brien.

I welcome the delegation from Dublin City University. We thank the members for their submission which we have considered. They can take it that we have read it and perhaps give a synopsised form of what they want to say.

This is an all-party sub-committee considering proposals for reform of the Seanad. The members are Senators Dardis, Brian Hayes, Ryan, O'Toole and myself. The questioners in the main will be Senators Brian Hayes and O'Toole, but we hope others will also ask questions.

As Members of the Seanad, we have full privilege whereas the witnesses have qualified privilege. I hate saying that because I do not imagine anything of a nature that will involve that will arise. Perhaps the witnesses could begin their presentation.

Before we begin, the President of DCU, Professor Ferdinand von Prondzynski, sends his apologies. He is in north America on university business, which is the reason he is not present.

I hope he collects a great deal.

That is what he is doing.

Perhaps the witnesses would like to begin their presentation.

Is the documentation we have just received the same as the original?

A little extra has been attached.

There are a number of points we would like to raise in terms of our submission and on which we would like to elaborate. We are here to represent the 20,000 or so graduates of DCU since 1983 when we began as a very small university. From an institute of technology, we have grown to a university which, come October, will have graduated 20,000 students. They are disenfranchised in relation to the seventh amendment of the Constitution passed on 5 July 1979 by more than 92.4% of the electorate, albeit on a very small turnout of 28% or so, which allowed graduates of universities and other institutes of higher education to have a vote on the University Panel.

We are fully supportive of the idea of university Senators and a university panel. We suggest that this panel should consist of a single six seat constituency which would allow for graduates of all universities and institutes of technology. The previous speaker from Trinity College alluded to the fact, as did the delegation from the Dublin Institute of Technology, that some graduates of the Dublin Institute of Technology whose degrees are validated by the University of Dublin have votes.

There are certain anomalies within the system that we think are pretty unjust in relation to our students. For example, with the problems of the register, some can have two votes. They can have an undergraduate degree from University College Cork and an MA from Trinity College which means they have two votes in the election. A person can have an MA from DCU and a BA from the University of Limerick or one of the institutes of technology and have no vote. We think there is no justification for this given the fact that the seventh amendment was passed. It is our view that it subverts the will of the people. It would be analogous to the divorce referendum being carried in 1995 and divorce not being allowed until 2018. That would be our perspective.

We view university Senators as being a great addition to the Seanad. There has been no Seanad in the history of the State that has not had an independent Senator and they have made huge contributions over the years, both from the NUI and Trinity College. I do not have to give the names; everyone knows them. We consider that university Senators are a good idea and that votes for graduates - I speak for my graduates of Dublin City University - would only enhance the capability and quality of the election. On that note, I will pass to my colleague.

I wish to add a comment specifically on what is sometimes considered the elitism of the university seats. Perhaps 25 years ago, when 11% of adults had a degree qualification, one could perhaps justifiably have made that claim, but now there are three times that many with degree qualifications. There was an OECD report three days ago which said there was 48% of the population aged between 25 and 34 years with further education qualifications.

We would argue that a university like DCU has been a major facilitator towards broadening the base and reducing elitism. If one looks at where our students come from - we have given the members a list of the top 100 schools feeding into DCU - within the top 50, there are only seven schools where the students pay fees. Our students come from Coolmine community school, Castleknock community school, Portmarnock and schools where the students are not getting education subsidised by their parents. They are basically open access schools.

On top of this, we also feel our physical location on the northside of Dublin has been a very important contributor towards first generation students. People whose parents did not go to university or who come from backgrounds and geographical areas where there is not a high tradition of university involvement come to DCU because of its physical location. There is a huge sweep of students coming from north-west Dublin up to the Border counties and right across the midlands. An enormous number come to DCU as their preferred university.

The other point on elitism is that DCU is the pioneer behind what is now known as the access programme. This is where we work with specially selected schools where the students are unlikely, because of economic or social background, to attain the adequate CAO points to get in through that system. We mentor them during their secondary school education, prepare them for university, reserve places for them and give them extra supports when they come in, which includes privately funded subvention given to the students throughout their university life. As a result of the success of this scheme which has broadened access to education for these students, it has expanded into quite a number of other universities also. We believe giving us a vote will energise and expand the existing electorate base.

I thank the witnesses and call on Senator Brian Hayes.

I welcome the representatives of DCU to the meeting and thank them for their submission. I wish to clarify a point. The witnesses' original submission stated they wanted a six seat constituency open to all graduates of universities. They have since clearly stated it is all university graduates and those from institutes of technology. Is that now the position?

While we speak only for ourselves, we feel, because of the nature of the investment the State has made in students of institutes of technology, we should include them also.

I do not think anyone would disagree. It is unjustifiable that many attending higher education cannot vote. The results of your survey, which is very interesting, clearly show that your 20,000 graduates want to vote. Would it be problematic for you to find out the names of the 20,000 graduates involved if a register was to be established tomorrow morning?

We are very lucky, because of our age and the nature of our university, that our alumni base is up-to-date and that an enormous number of our graduates are electronically contactable. All of our graduates are given life-long e-mail, thereby making it easy for us to keep in touch with them. I suspect our register is very much up-to-date by comparison.

The submission deals with the burning issue for DCU and its graduates - the fact that they cannot vote. It also tells us that when asked if they thought the Seanad should be completely overhauled and if all citizens, whether resident in Ireland or abroad, should have a vote, 50% agreed the Seanad should be overhauled. It did not, however, provide us with any examples of how we could overhaul it except in relation to its composition and how Members were elected. Do you have any views on how this House can become more relevant in the minds of Irish people at home and abroad?

Something that is often forgotten in terms of the University Panel is that the electorate within the panel is the only electorate. The panel does not recognise county or national boundaries and benefits in that regard. I have read some of the submissions from the political parties in Northern Ireland on the opening up of the franchise. The problem in that regard is that voter turnout in general elections which was well above 70% some 20 years ago has now fallen to 61.9%. Opening up the franchise to the populous as a whole could be problematic because it could result in a low turnout in voting. Current voting trends for the University Panel are low: 36% in the case of the University of Dublin and 30% in the case of the NUI. We feel giving votes to graduates of DCU and other universities and institutes of technology would probably energise the electorate but have not given any thought to how it would open up beyond this because we did not feel it came within our remit. The University Panel does provide an opportunity for emigrants to vote. It is for the sub-committee to decide the issue of votes for emigrants.

The 36% and 30% voting percentages given do not reflect anything. Those of us involved in this area believe the registers are wrong by at least 25% and that at least one quarter of those sent papers never receive them for various reasons.

They may have moved.

Our best guess is that the return in terms of those who receive ballot papers is closer to 70%. I merely point this out by way of reference and for no other reason. I am interested in the point made that the emergence of DCU graduates would re-energise this whole issue. Perhaps Dr. Murphy might elaborate on this point.

Analyse and discuss, briskly.

While that might well be true, if a political scientist from abroad wanted to check the number voting in a Seanad election, that is the figure he or she would use.

It is our experience that when people receive a ballot paper into their hands, more than half send it back. We are only interested in practicalities. We have to deal with the issues. We do not wish to argue about the views of political scientists from abroad, we want to hear the views of DCU on how best to make the system work.

If one creates a multi-seat constituency, one will effectively have greater competition among the various universities in seeking participation for their own causes. We are not seeking DCU representation in the Seanad.

That was made clear in the submission.

We would actively encourage our students to have their say.

How would that be done?

We have very active relations with alumni which is probably a reflection of our age and the nature of our communications with them. We operate a series of alumni cells and spread the word in that way. It is also the reason we were able to survey them on this issue. The response we received suggests they want to participate.

That is very interesting.

I do not wish to pigeonhole DCU, for which I have a high regard, in particular, the previous president, which is no reflection on the current president, because he appeared to have an entirely different view of the role of the university. He was much more egalitarian and had a great sense of involvement with society. In that regard, I am concerned - I have mentioned this before - about the under-representation in our political process of manufacturing industry in which I include the software industry. There is substantial representation from small business but complete under-representation of manufacturing industry. Would broadening the election base of universities change this?

Yes. The raison d’être for setting up DCU was to support economic development. Consequently, 95% of our students have paid work placements while taking undergraduate degrees. They are highly sought by employers and ubiquitous. You will find DCU graduates, even though they are still quite young, in key places of industry. They have a very strong sense of social responsibility. Anyone wishing to come and talk to students would find they are very aware the State has invested very heavily in their education. They want to be involved in the process and pay back some of what they have received. A high percentage of DCU graduates are involved in the export trade and foreign manufacturing industries.

I thank the representatives from DCU for attending. I hold a warm place in my heart for DCU. We will reflect strongly on the submission and discussions we have had with its representatives when drawing up our final conclusions. Thank you.

Thank you.

The witnesses withdrew.

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