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COMMITTEE ON PROCEDURE AND PRIVILEGES (Sub-Committee on Seanad Reform) debate -
Friday, 19 Sep 2003

Vol. 1 No. 4

Presentation by Ciarán Toland et al.

Witnesses: Mr. Ciarán Toland, Mr. Brendan Kiely and Mr. Donal Kane.

The delegates are very welcome to the all-party sub-committee. Senator O'Toole has asked me to convey his apologies. We have been toiling morning, afternoon and evening for four days. The submission from the delegation attracted us. Some 164 submissions were made, but we took a cross-section from among them as we would have to sit until next year to get to them all. We thank the delegation for the trouble taken to compile it and to attend.

We are an all-party sub-committee which is determined on reform. As there are 20 minutes available, it would be helpful if the members of the delegation could be succinct. The sub-committee will pick out points we would like to talk to you about. While members of the sub-committee have full privilege this same privilege does not extend to witnesses to whom qualified privilege applies. I am required to make that statement although I doubt it will come to fisticuffs.

We can insult delegates, but delegates cannot insult us.

Mr. Toland

I am joined by my colleagues, Mr. Brendan Kiely and Mr. Donal Kane. We represent a group of friends who played a role in the "Yes" campaign of the Nice treaty referendum last year. The group includes people from the four main parties as well as people with no party affiliation. The future of the Seanad transcends political affiliation. We recognise that there is significant disengagement from traditional politics particularly among our own generation. One of the main trends we see is a radicalisation of political activism and interest away from locally based, party politics to issues based campaigns. This is partly the result of the growing importance of the media and the globalising economy. For example, this week citizens have been active in campaigns on everything from Cancun to Dublin bins. The sub-committee's review provides an opportunity to establish popular legitimacy for this House and to create a vibrant, distinct revising Chamber to the Dáil.

Our proposal is simple. The current indirectly elected panels and university seats should be replaced with direct elections to nationwide, issues-based panels with citizens registering as electors to the panel of their choice. This brings together the best of the two historical Seanads, the latent potential for issues-based voting in the current Seanad and the wider electorate of the 1925 Seanad. At the heart of our proposal is a radical reform comprising direct election of the Seanad by the people. Vaguely tweaking the current system of indirect election or adding appointed Members will serve only to damage the Seanad and the work of its Members. The popular legitimacy of this House and the standing of its Members can be advanced only by direct connection with and accountability to citizens. In the final debates on the Constitution in 1937, Eamon de Valera described the Seanad as professedly and expressedly only a half-way step, a compromise and a halfway house towards direct election. We believe that two thirds of a century later, the nation has reached the point of maturity de Valera considered to be necessary.

Indirect election has not served Senators well and offers little recognition of the work they do. It provides them with ineffective legitimacy in arguing for legislative amendments to the Dáil, the Government or the media. Currently, the IFA or GAA presidents receive much greater coverage for their elections than the entire membership of the Seanad. This is principally because ordinary people cannot vote. Wider elections will create greater media coverage which will in turn lead to greater authority for Senators as they go about their work. Direct election is essential for the issues based Seanad we advocate. A Mayo sheep farmer is more entitled to judge candidates for the agricultural panel than an inner city Dublin councillor. The case against direct election is unarguable in a modern democracy. Mr. Kiely will discuss the principle of sectoral panels in more detail.

Our proposal centres around nationwide sectoral panels and direct elections which will focus attention on the Seanad. More must be done to address the increasing disconnection with the current political system. Issues-based campaigns are essential to encourage wider participation in national politics at electoral and candidate levels. Nationwide, issues based panels offer the best way of producing such campaigns on an ongoing basis. That they would be nationwide recognises the solidarity existing between voters across constituency boundaries and society and the fact that the way in which we interact is not solely a product of the area in which we live. It also reflects the fact that national issues and national legislation are exactly that.

The particular panels we propose in our submission are flexible, but at the core is the principle that panels in themselves will radicalise debate and enable voters and candidates to opt for the areas of greatest interest to themselves and in which they may have significant expertise. There are many people outside the party system who can and wish to offer public service on issues of concern to them through their employment or personal experience. Many of the Dáil's Independent Deputies may find a more appropriate home in the Seanad. Our proposal that voters choose a single panel, to which to elect and which they can change, constitutes a positive and empowering act of choice which ensures that they would feel attached to their panel and its issues. They would more closely follow their particular Senators and the campaigns they undertook. The only difference in effort between this and offering the citizens the choice to vote for a local constituency is the empowering decision to choose the panel or issue on which they vote. It will also force candidates and nominating bodies, including the political parties, to focus their efforts on mobilising the vote and on re-registration. This will result in a truly participatory democracy with beneficial effects primarily in terms of turnout.

While it is not critical to the central message of direct elections to nationwide panels, the election of the Seanad on the same day as the Dáil would have tremendous benefits for both Houses. It would enhance the credibility of the Seanad elections, bolster turnout and create equivalence of legitimacy with the Dáil. Adopting this new approach would avoid rendering the Seanad merely the by-product of a mid-term poll of the Government's popularity. It would force candidates to make a deliberate choice to pursue a seat in one House or the other. Moreover, the Seanad driven turnout of voters most interested in issues-based politics would have the great and beneficial effect of encouraging citizens, especially those among the younger generation, to choose their Government through local Deputies. Given that we propose direct election of representatives on the basis of national issues, a general election is the most appropriate context in which to elect them.

Direct election to nationwide, issues based panels would create electoral transparency, popular accountability, democratic legitimacy and, consequently, a more efficient revising Chamber. This proposal addresses one of the central problems in our democracy, namely the growing disconnection between the issues of interest to citizens and the debate in our national Legislature. The Seanad's founders understood that our nation's politics would change and evolve and we should meet the challenges of a changing society to connect with voters by making this House accountable to the people. We should create a House which balances but, importantly, does not rival the Dáil. Such a House would be better placed to fulfil its role in the scrutiny and revision of legislation and it would be creative. Citizens would feel connected to such a Seanad.

I appreciate that the delegates come from a background of strong experience as members of disparate groups who came together for a particular campaign. The submission was very strong. We wish to engage in a session of questions and answers, otherwise the exercise will be fruitless. Any member of the delegation is free to respond to the questions from Senator Ryan or Senator Brian Hayes.

The delegation is probably no more disparate than the group of Senators on this side of the Chamber. I wish to be clear about certain matters. I read the delegation's thoughtful submission last night to get it clear in my head. The members of the sub-committee have been taken with the quality of the submissions we have received. I say this because I am becoming aware of the degree to which people participate when given the opportunity to do so, even in the more arcane areas of politics to which one would think reform of the Seanad belongs.

The process proposed is very interesting and is actually very close to my own thinking. That is probably why I consider it a great idea. Is the delegation proposing a restricted nomination procedure? I am not trying to be smart, but at one point in the submission it is stated that every citizen may seek election to a single panel of his or her choice while later it is stated that registered political parties and the social partners should have the right to nominate to specific panels. If everybody who wishes to run may stand as a candidate, there is no need for an Oireachtas committee to decide which social partners can nominate to which panels. Is the delegation suggesting that there would be a restriction on the sorts of people who could run on individual panels?

Mr. Kane

We do not suggest that there should be a restriction, we suggest that everybody should be entitled to register and to run as a candidate on the panel of their choice. However, that candidacy should be subject to nomination by one of the registered political parties, by a nominating body or by petition of 1,000 citizens. To maintain the relevance of the panel, it would probably be necessary to retain the nominating bodies. We have named the panels issues-based panels. If appropriate nominating bodies are assigned to the appropriate panels it would ensure the debate on the respective panels would be maintained along issue lines.

If one were to adopt this approach, one would hope - I am sure it is the intention of the delegation - that a Seanad would emerge, the composition of which would differ spectacularly from that of the Dáil, in which case even the fallback of the Taoiseach's nominees might not guarantee the Government a majority.

Mr. Toland

While we have not advocated any major changes to the functions of the Seanad, we propose one restriction on its current powers as regards legislation, namely, the removal of its current power to delay legislation by 180 days. It would no longer be necessary, therefore, to have a Government majority to pass legislation. The Seanad would then play to its strengths, namely, revising legislation and proposing amendments to the Dáil, while not having power to prevent legislation from being passed.

The only problem with the proposal, which is more serious than it appears at first sight, is that the Seanad's only unqualified power, of which I am aware, is to reject secondary legislation. If a statutory instrument is rejected by either House of the Oireachtas, it cannot be passed. A classic example of this is the regulation imposing charges on freedom of information requests. I am certain this regulation would be rejected with great fanfare were there a non-Government majority in Seanad Éireann. The alternative, to remove this power, would result in statutory instruments and secondary legislation being subject to even less scrutiny than at present, which would be a negative development politically. There is a case to be made as regards the question of a Government majority and it will focus the minds of practising politicians.

Mr. Toland

Obviously, the Senator knows that better than me.

That is not the case.

Mr. Toland

I understood statutory instruments and secondary legislation, unless controversial, that is, partisan, are more liable to be scrutinised in a non-partisan or bi-partisan manner than primary legislation. The power to reject them could, therefore, possibly be retained. We also propose that secondary legislation be subjected to the same scrutiny procedure as contained in the European Union (Scrutiny) Act 2002 and sent to relevant committees of the Dáil and Seanad. We propose that the Seanad be given a role in scrutinising secondary legislation, whether through joint Oireachtas committees or in the Chamber.

When the members of the delegation joined together to fight the second referendum on the Nice treaty, they came from different political perspectives, whether party or non-party political. Clearly, the experience of people interested in politics or a particular issue joining together was much better than it would have been had it occurred through a political party. If we go down that road, the dumbing down of party politics will continue as in recent years. Even if one opens up the panels to issue-driven candidates, for instance, to people in favour of one-off rural housing, would one not ultimately have on the panel a Fine Gael Party candidate and a Labour Party candidate in favour of one-off rural development? There would be no Fianna Fáil Party candidate in favour of one-off rural development because the party opposes it.

We are in favour of it.

I was trying to provoke the Chairman.

I am well aware of that.

Is it not inevitable that with issue-based panels, the party political system would once again mobilise to produce party candidates.

That is without question the case. However, we all know people outside the political party system - I and people of my generation certainly do - who passionately believe in issues of the day, for example, in the area of health sector, and have a true belief and vision of how the country should be in the future, but for various reasons do not feel included in the political party system. I am a member of the political party system and I believe one can achieve change through that route. Our proposal would provide an opportunity to such people. While the political parties will, without question, populate the panels to a certain extent, the proposal would provide people who currently feel disenfranchised with a voice on a particular issue. For example, we have seen the proliferation of Independents in the past.

I wish to address that point. In the main, the Independents elected to the Dáil at the previous election were not articulating specific national issues but specific local issues. In the vast majority of cases they were people who mobilised, for example, because a certain hospital in a certain constituency was not given the green light. National issues, although they were an element, were not the main factor. In most cases, this was local pleading and local bargaining. This trend was an example of the manner in which the Dáil concentrates on local constituency matters as opposed to national issues.

The flipside of that argument is that people who believe so strongly in keeping open a hospital will have considerable expertise in that area. The doctors who are often behind strong local campaigns then have something to give at national level. If they were elected to the Seanad from a health panel on the basis of a particular hospital, they would have something valuable to contribute to the House and the system in general.

Mr. Kane

If people are currently concerned about a certain national issue, there is no mechanism for them to get support or drive an election campaign outside the party system.

I will provide a brief example before Senator Dardis makes a contribution. Third world debt and the manner in which we can create a more equitable trading relationship between the developing world and the developed world is a massive issue for many young people. While many Members of the Seanad speak on the issue, it is not championed by any Senator in particular. I accept the point that national issues could be better articulated if we tweaked the system.

I thank the delegation for its presentation. I wish to address the idea of sectoral panels. I accept the reasons for sectoral panels and the argument in their favour put by the delegation. The witnesses then pointed out that one should be able to register for the panel of one's choice, in other words, one would only be able to vote on one panel. Proportionality is at the heart of our electoral system. It is likely that a large number of people would register to vote on a panel on agricultural, rural and environmental affairs or education or youth affairs, whereas a much smaller number would probably register for a panel on arts, culture and religious affairs. What is the delegation's view on proportionality and the prospect of having one large constituency and one small constituency in terms of numbers voting on one panel?

Mr. Kane

As we stated, the numbers are not fixed in stone and could be subjected to some revision. In general, however, we contend that even if the system is flawed due to the number of people registering for different panels, it would still constitute a considerable improvement on the current system of indirect election. Any form of direct election is an improvement, even with the shortcomings identified by the Senator, which I accept need to be examined.

The current system, with all its defects, is proportional in the sense that it has a single electorate. It may break down along party political lines, but it is proportional.

The group came together for a particular purpose. Have its members stuck together, even loosely, with regard to other issues?

Is Seanad reform the next issue?

There is a widespread belief that people feel disconnected from the political system. Do the members of the delegation have any ideas on how this problem could be redressed?

Direct election is the core of our presentation. We would be very interested the sub-committee's views on this issue because it is a matter which——

Obviously we will not state our position.

I meant when the sub-committee publishes its report. We would be interested in its views on the issue and those of others.

Mr. Kiely came through the political system. Are his two companions on the delegation apolitical?

Mr. Toland

We are not apolitical, we are very political.

I mean with a small "p".

Mr. Toland

We are not members of a political party.

The grouping is made up of former members of the four main parties; people who have left because they could not find any outlet within the party system or that the status quo was being pursued on an ongoing basis within a political party. Do the other members want to continue on this?

The world needs people like that. The country needs original thinkers. They exist at all levels and all ages. The fact that the speakers have been so fresh and open in the submission gives us great hope. When we make our final compilation we will certainly bear these arguments in mind. We thank the delegation for coming before the committee.

The witnesses withdrew.

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