Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 23 Aug 1921

Vol. S No. 5

DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE REPORT

MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE, ROBERT BARTON

, said before the Dáil took the report from Agriculture he wanted to make a report to the Dáil upon the National Land Bank. They noticed that a smoke screen had been drawn over the bank and he desired to clear it now for the members of the Dáil. It had been referred to in the agricultural report as a "Loan Fund". The Dáil had never officially recognised the Land Bank and it was not the policy of the Ministry to officially recognised it at present.

The National Land Bank was registered in December 1919, in accordance with a scheme carefully worked out by a committee acting under the direction of the Dáil to give effect to the Decree of June 18th, 1919,

"That the provision of land for the agricultural population now deprived thereof is decreed and a Loan Fund under the authority of the Dáil may be established to aid this purpose".

The first object in view was to facilitate the transfer of untenanted land to landless men and uneconomic holders and thus to prevent emigration and rural congestion.

Under the Land Acquisition Scheme a sum of £203,000 was transferred by the Minister of Finance to the bank, and with this forty groups of what were once landless men and uneconomic holders have been organised [into] farming societies with joint and several liabilities for the loans advanced.

The membership of these societies is approximately 850 and the area they own and occupy covers 15,750 acres. For the purpose of this land the bank has advanced up to June the 30th last the sum of £316,590 and a further sum of approximately £27,000 (the exact amount is subject to adjustment on closing) will in due course be paid over to complete the negotiation already entered into in respect of six estates in which the legal formalities have not been completed.

Against these advances the bank holds cash security deposits lodged with it by the members of the 40 land societies amounting to eighty three thousand, eight hundred and thirteen pounds (£83,813) equal to 26.4% of the purchase price in addition to first mortgages on the whole of the land all of which was very carefully valued before purchase was sanctioned.

The amount of land dealt with is very small in comparison to the needs of the country and represents a fraction of the applications made to the bank, but it is sufficient to prove that the principle upon which the Land Acquisition Scheme is based meets the requirements of the people, is fundamentally sound and can be expanded to form the land settlement policy of the future.

The farms purchased are distributed throughout the centre of Ireland from east to west in those districts where the greatest area of untenanted land remains.

The societies are located as follows:—¹

1. This list accounts for 35 societies, not 40 as mentioned in the statement.

Conntae na Gaillmhe	7
"an Ríogh nó Ua bhFailghe	6
"Maighe Eo	4
"Luimnigh	3
"Chille Dara	3
"Chille Coinnigh	2
"Liathdroma	1
"na Midhe	1
"na hIar-Mhidhe	1
"Rosa Comáin	1
"Cheatharlach	1
"Shligigh	1
"Chiarraighe	1
"Átha Cliath	1
"Thiobrad Arann	1
"Lughmhaighe	1

In practically all cases the purchasers are well satisfied and payments due to the bank are being punctually met.

The bank and its land operations has worked harmoniously with the Land Commission courts and those who were concerned over the land agitation which sprang up in the Spring of 1920 will agree that the concerted efforts of the two authorities probably averted an outbreak of violence which might have had very serious national consequences.

For the immediate future the land purchase operations of the bank, owing to the exhaustion of the funds allotted by the Dáil for its purpose, must necessarily be governed by the amount of money which the bank can in future obtain from its branches in the country.

In addition to financing the Land Acquisition Scheme it was found desirable to attempt to establish a financial centre for Ireland which, while providing the usual banking facilities, would invest Irish capital in Irish enterprises instead of placing it at the disposal of the commercial interests of foreign countries.

Steady and continuous progress is being made in the banking department as will be seen from the balance sheet of June 30th, 1921, now before you.

Branches were opened at the beginning of the year in Cork, Limerick, Waterford, Athlone, Ennis and Enniscorthy and a sub-office in Rush transacting business on one day in the week.

The Directors, finding that the premises in Leeson Street were too small and inconveniently situated for the rapidly expanding business of the bank, decided to purchase a site for a new head office in Dame Street. The structure purchased required alterations and additions. Owing to building strikes and other causes these new premises will not be available for a few weeks.

I take this opportunity of urging all members of the Dáil to secure that a large share of the country's capital at present deposited in these banks which are compelled to look to London for guidance in their financial and economic policy shall be transferred to your own bank, which is giving practical expression to the financial and economic policy of the national government and whose object is to encourage the growth of the population and the industries that shall support it.

THOS. O'DONOGHUE

asked had the Dáil any official connection with the Irish People's Bank.

MINISTER FOR FINANCE

replied that the Minister of Agriculture did not know any of the circumstances. The Irish People's Bank had no connection whatever with the Dáil and anyone who was foolish enough to put money into it he considered fair game for the fellow who was running it.

LIAM DE RÓISTE

asked had the directors of the Land Bank considered the question of foreign exchanges at all. So far as trading with America was concerned the Bank of England was the bank that gave the best terms. In the case of the other banks which operated, most of them worked through a branch in London or some American bank in London and it was desirable they should have in this country some bank or institution that would represent an American bank in a sense and so cut away altogether from the hold which even yet some of the institutions in London had in this country.

MR. BARTON

replied that this matter had been considered and was at present under the consideration of the Minister of Finance and the directors of the bank. He would like to state a few more details with regard to branches and the support the Land Bank had received. The way the directors had been misled by some important personages in the districts where they wanted branches of the bank established was nothing less than scandalous. When application was made an inspector would be sent down; he was impressed with the stories of the enormous sums of money waiting to be invested, deposits, private accounts and public accounts. One branch had opened with all these prospects and after six months it had 25 current accounts. But he would not have pity for the directors if they had not been misled by promises to be snowed under by money. He was not talking so much about depositors but the current accounts he was finding fault with. He thought it was due to the fact that the public men who wanted them to open failed to put in their own accounts. This happened all over the country. In Dublin he had to go round and do the tout himself.

He had hoped and still hoped that the members of the Dáil would in future remember that they were bound both financially and patriotically to the bank and that they should endeavour to secure that a larger number of accounts would be transferred to this bank.

The Deputy Minister would put the report and he wished here to pay tribute to the work done during his absence. He apologised for his absence and at the same time he felicitated the Dáil for the Deputy who took his place, and he thought his own absence was a blessing to the Dáil, though in disguise to himself.

SUBSTITUTE MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE, A. Ó CONCHUBHAIR

, said he had presented a long report to the Dáil and he did not propose to read it to them. He hoped anyone interested had read it and if any questions were raised the would be glad to answer them.

DEPUTY P. Ó MÁILLE

proposed the adoption of the report.

DEPUTY D. KENT

seconded. He said the report was a very valuable one and took some time to get over. As far as he saw there was a lot of matter in it which would require legislation. For instance, it might be advisable to pass in this session of the Dáil a Bill for the compulsory tillage of land to tide over the difficulties they would have to face in the coming year. They had also matters dealing with agricultural labour disputes and several other important phases in agriculture. Some people were advocating in many districts that by giving the labourer 4 or 5 acres of land and a cow it might settle the question of unemployment. He did not believe that. Any small quantity of land given to a labourer would not make him any better off than he was at present. They should give something substantial. If they found large estates on the market they would be worth buying and giving to those who had no land. That would be one way out of it.

If they decided to have compulsory tillage of land they should also set up a wages tribunal which would determine the wages of the labourer, not for one part of the year but for the whole year, because no farmer would till any great quantity of his land if he was afraid of being confronted with serious labour troubles. He saw in his own districts one of the finest harvests left for 3 or 4 weeks to rot over strikes. That should be avoided and they should get some machinery to deal with it. Instead of labourers and farmers coming together on the 25th March it should be at the 1st of the year.

There were three different classes of agriculturists in Ireland. One class who held a quantity of land suitable for tillage. Another who held some of the richest land in the country which was unsuited for tillage and which would be really a waste to till. Some members he understood seemed to know very little about what quantity or quality of land should be put under cultivation. Under the English Compulsory Tillage Act all parts of Ireland were equally subject to compulsory tillage, but they would find that on the rich lands of Limerick the crops were not worth harvesting—and that in the richest lands in the world. The third class of agriculturists were those who lived in the Liberties and their hours of work and rates of wages should be set in a different line than the other classes. Therefore in the formation of the Wages Tribunal Board he would suggest that labour appoint one man from the Liberties and one man from the country, that the farmers appoint one representative from the Liberties and one representative from the country, and that the Dáil itself should appoint an independent chairman. This board could determine the hours of work, fair wages and land fit for tillage or not.

These were subjects which required a great deal of attention. He would give all the assistance he could if the Minister proposed to legislate. To do it now would only be panicky as they had not the necessary time at their disposal.

DEPUTY THOS. MAC [recte Ó] DONNCHADHA

asked had Dáil Éireann any authority over the National Land Bank.

MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE

replied there were three Ministers of the Cabinet on the board of the bank. In addition to that the Minister of Finance had a representative on the directorate and took the greatest interest in the work of the bank.

DEPUTY THOS. Ó DONNCHADHA

explained that the reason he asked was that the members of the Dáil were connected with the other bank as well and the people down the country did not understand the difference. They had been burned before.

MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE

replied he was not in a position to state anything about the People's Bank.

DEPUTY P. FAHY

understood it was not advisable for the Teachtaí to state publicly that the Land Bank was closely connected with the Dáil.

MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE

said it was fairly well known in Dublin Castle that it had a connection with the Dáil.

DEPUTY S. ETCHINGHAM

asked if labourers had acquired any lands under the scheme. He knew that the Deputy for W. Wicklow (R. Barton) was anxious that the labourers should be provided for. He was at a conference with the Minister for Labour and the Minister for Agriculture at which men from Liberty Hall attended but nothing came of it. What they were urging was that the security of the union and the selection of the very best men was the best means for making land available for workers through the Land Bank Scheme. He did not know how that scheme had developed. He differed from the Deputy for W. [recte E.] Cork (D. Kent) when he said that labourers could not cultivate land.

DEPUTY D. KENT

on a point of order denied that he ever said such a thing.

DEPUTY S. ETCHINGHAM

said he regretted that he misunderstood the Deputy for W. [recte E.] Cork. Agricultural industry depended upon good-fellowship between farmers and labourers and there should be some national policy that when the land was being tilled or the harvest reaped there could be no strikes. The agricultural labourer deserved to be uplifted. He should live at least in frugal comfort. He would like to get a reply as to whether any labourers had secured land under the Department scheme or would it be possible to get trade unions to give security for purchase and to select the best men.

MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE

asked that the question be put on paper so that definite information could be given.

THE SUBSTITUTE MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE, ART Ó CONCHUBHAIR

, said he was afraid the same regrettable state of affairs was going to be manifest in the new Dáil as had been in the old—that they were not going to have any criticism or any suggestions for the improvement of their policy. As he had found those of them who were compelled to sit upon high stools here in Dublin could not know the minds of the people in the country, they had to try and assimilate things as best they could, and the opinions they had to act upon might not be very correct.

As the Deputy for West [recte East] Cork said there are two or three points in agriculture in Ireland at the moment which would take a couple of days discussion in this Assembly. One was the question of unemployment and another the question of tillage both of which were so closely co-related that they could not be discussed apart.

In order to be able to guide this Assembly in the matter of food he had prepared a sort of tabulated return of the state of food in the country. He got in contact with the best informed people in the counties and to the best of his ability he had made an advanced report of what the food situation was likely to be and, let him be believed, if the war was resumed the food question would be an important one. If there was going to be peace he would say they would be all right. He would state in a few words the food position and the quantity of land tilled.

Of wheat there was a probable production of 40,000 tons. The normal production was 60,000 tons, while the total consumption was 700,000 tons; so they would be absolutely depending on imports for over 600,000 tons. Merely to take the one question of wheat the position was very serious. Potatoes would not be so bad. Oats were down considerably; but in regard to oats and potatoes they would have to take immediate steps to prevent over-export if there was going to be war. A great quantity of oats was exported every year and also a great quantity of potatoes and in addition the major portion of both oats and potatoes was fed to animals. If they were going to be driven into the position of an economic blockade and left to stew in their own juice they would want to take steps to protect what supply they had. That was why they would like Deputies to give serious attention to the tillage question. There were 100,000 men idle at the present moment in various parts of the country and these should not be flung into the cities if work could be provided for them in the country. Some people deceive themselves about the morality of interfering with land in private ownership. The nation had the first right to the land and it was his luck to fall across an unique document that was written in 1914 when England was being threatened with the same position as they were threatened now. Its author was the Bishop of Ross and he could not do better than re-quote a passage—

"Mr. Campbell suggested more than once that it was the duty of the occupier of the land to produce food, and to till the land. Now, on that point, you will pardon me for a short half-theological, half-legal disquisition. The word ownership has a very vague meaning in the minds of most men. Ownership is of a great many kinds. It may be absolute and complete, as ownership in something that you make with your own hands, and which you are at liberty to use or to destroy just as you please. That is absolute ownership. But most ownership is limited by conditions, and you are not free to destroy or abuse; you are bound to use. There are certain things in which there may be no ownership; there are other things in which there may only be a very modified ownership. It is quite clear that we cannot get ownership in the air we breathe or in the sunshine. When we come to the question of land, clearly there can be no absolute ownership in land. A man is not free to use or abuse his land, he is bound to use it. He may not destroy his land for that land was given by God for the subsistence of the people of the nation. That does not mean that every individual is to have a piece of this land; that system would not work. But it means that those who occupy the land are bound to use that land, in the first place for their own benefit, and in the next place for the benefit of the nation."

The fact remained that the great proportion of the land was not being used for the benefit of the nation.

He might say he was not in favour of compulsion. He saw the difficulties and he would prefer some other method of bringing the farmers to a proper appreciation of their duties and responsibilities, but he would say if it was found necessary for the sake of their people to bring forward a measure of compulsion he would support it. They could reach a straining point and he thought they were gradually reaching it. He did not think it necessary to go any deeper into this matter as he was merely elaborating upon some points in his report. He would be glad if every Teachta would think seriously upon the questions of tillage and unemployment.

The Deputy for East Cork (D. Kent) had made reference to some types of land suitable and unsuitable for tillage. He was convinced from his experience of some of the best land in Ireland that the amount of land in N. Kildare or Meath that would not benefit by tillage was actually not worth talking about. The only reason why that land was not being tilled was that it was able to produce a certain amount of beef. That was a wrong policy for them to rely upon. Ireland's consideration should be their first consideration. Land produced less beef per acre than any other kind of food. In his opinion the bulk of Ireland was of such a nature that it could be improved by a touch of the plough and could be made to produce more food. He was in thorough agreement with the Deputy for E. Cork (D. Kent) when he said that labour agreements should be made to cover a long period. Great permanent damage could be done to a harvest by even a 48 hours strike and it was absolutely essential that both farmers and workers should recognise the point that the agreements should be made to last over a period when the crop might be lost. That was the difficulty. The men's leaders would say not to take away their best weapon, that they must strike when they could hit hardest. The farmer would say the same thing. He was in thorough agreement with the Deputy who said the farmer and the worker must be brought to see that they were absolutely as necessary for one another as the handle of the shovel was for the head.

It was useless for anyone here in the city to try and set up a standard that would apply to the whole country. The various members could help by trying to get the conciliation boards which were set up by the Department of Labour to consider various conditions of agricultural labour on the farms.

Another point which had been causing a lot of uneasiness and trouble was the question of tree-cutting. There was hardly a day that he had not an application from someone who had bought a wood and was prevented from cutting it by the "hardhearted" Volunteers. There were two or three points involved and he had tried to indicate them as briefly as possible in his report. He might say that while the war was on the only authority that could say whether a wood could be cut or not was the competent military authority of the district. For peace conditions the Dáil should formulate some policy in advance. It was not fair to let a timber merchant make a contract with some firm in England say in which he had got to supply beech for spindles and when he went to cut down the woods he had bought the local people prevented him. If the Dáil made its policy in advance then the merchant went into business with his eyes open. He would be thankful if the Deputies who took an interest in forestry would forward suggestions to Mr. Barton or himself on these points so that if necessary legislation could be passed before the Dáil adjourned.

Question put and agreed.

House adjourned until 3.30 p.m.

Dáil reassembled at 3.50 p.m.