said he supposed it was an oversight that at the top of page 2 of the agenda the question of appointing plenipotentiaries was not taken.
QUESTION OF APPOINTMENT OF PLENIPOTENTIARIES
replied it was not an oversight but a question of tactics. As the House knew a new Cabinet had been formed to-day and approval given to it. Now that there was a definite responsibility being placed upon seven individuals it was only fair to them that they should first have an opportunity of discussing the matter and it should be a Government motion. Apart from that it was doubtful whether it would be wise to appoint plenipotentiaries before it was certain there would be work for them to do. Had they received the reply from the British government he had no doubt whatever. If it were necessary they would have a hurried meeting and be able to bring forward names. Another thing which affected the matter was he thought it inadvisable to have them appointed too long a time in advance. It would be impossible to keep them from being known publicly. They would be pestered by all sorts of opinions. So he thought it better that the names should be brought forward only when they knew the negotiations were going to proceed.
Against that if they did proceed they would need another meeting of the Dáil. The only way out of it was to leave [it] to the Cabinet to nominate them, but he did not like to do that. They had two courses— leave it to the Cabinet or you are to depart and leave it to the Cabinet to summon you again specially for the purpose. In any case he thought they should not go on with it now.
One point he wanted to elucidate— whether the plenipotentiaries would have terms of reference to guide them. He was perfectly willing to leave it to the Cabinet on the understanding that [in] any negotiations that took place there would be no suggestion that there would be any compromise on the principle of the status of Ireland. Therefore he thought it would be better that these plenipotentiaries should be ratified by the Dáil and that the terms of reference should be stated at the time of their appointment.
It was futile to expect they were going to have negotiations if they tied their plenipotentiaries hand and foot. They might as well not go away.
They had elected a Government responsible for the carrying on of the preliminary negotiations. Terms of reference would be laid down—the agreed terms of reference between them and the British government. The terms would be laid down in some such reference as that laid down in the letter to Lloyd George to-day. It was not their terms of reference but the agreed terms of reference between them and the British government. They could realise the advisability of not committing this Dáil in advance to anything that the plenipotentiaries might do. They would have to go out [sic] the best they could under the conditions. Certainly if there was to be any limitations of any kind further than have been stated broadly in their reply he for one could not retain office.
asked had the President made up his mind as to whether the Dáil should be asked to ratify the plenipotentiaries at all.
said he did not mind very much. From the point of view of influence they would have I would like to see them ratified. He would ask for ratification if they were going now. It was not a very pleasant task to negotiate under the present circumstances unless one knew he had the support of the Dáil. That was his point of view. His idea was to tell the commission to go and do their best but to remember that everything they did the Dáil would have its say as to whether they would approve of it or not. Taking everything into account he would be inclined to say the commission should be from the Dáil as a whole. He did not propose on tactical grounds to be one of the plenipotentiaries himself. He thought under the circumstances the best tactics would be that he would not be one of them, but if he were he would feel that he had not the same weight if he was not ratified by the Dáil.
It was very important when they made a statement of that kind, there should be no question of their authority, and therefore they were authorising their plenipotentiaries to speak for them.
asked might they take it that the plenipotentiaries would be commissioned by the Dáil.
replied if it was the wish of the Dáil he was ready to accept that.
said they were dealing with the British Cabinet and not the British House of Commons. He would make a motion to the effect that the Cabinet should commission those plenipotentiaries.
asked did not the reply state the Dáil would nominate these men.
explained it would be interpreted to the Ministry.
asked did not they leave the British government under the impression that the plenipotentiaries going over would have the sanction of the Dáil.
said the reply was on the wire and it was expected in an hour. The House could resume tonight or wait till the morning. The only thing was that a number of members had left. However it was on the programme that the matter would come up. Therefore those who went away went with the full knowledge that they might lose the appointment of the plenipotentiaries.
He was told now the wire coming was for himself only. It would be published in the morning.
There was only one matter now, the difficulty raised by the member for Donegal, but he thought that the Ministry acts for the Dáil would cover that, but if the members thought otherwise let them do what they wanted themselves. So if they would prefer to have the ratification of those whom he sent over then he would suggest they stayed over till tomorrow.
moved that the House adjourn and meet at 8.30 p.m.
said if the reply was on the wire and that the President wanted to consider it overnight was it not better that they meet tomorrow morning. Then they could consider in view of the reply what was their best action.
appealed to the Speaker to adjourn the proceedings till Monday morning.
said he was in favour of that also because it would not take long for him to make up his mind on the tactics of the situation. It was all a question whether plenipotentiaries were to be appointed or not. He felt as the members were here they should ratify them if they were to be appointed. But if the members were away down the country he felt the plenipotentiaries could go on the sanction of the Ministry.
The question of terms of reference he thought they were better debated now. He said personally if the terms of reference were any other than those broad lines that they had been going on up to the present— other than those they could not ask any negotiators go over on. They might as well not go at all. Either the House should say plenipotentiaries are not going or else give them a free hand.
THE SPEAKER
said there was no proposal before the House.
said he would make a proposition in order to shorten the business. He proposed that, whether the negotiators would be appointed by the Dáil, further than the basis of the correspondence which had taken place they should not be bound by terms of reference. In other words he proposed that the negotiating plenipotentiaries sent over be given a free hand other than the terms already laid down.
proposed the House adjourn till 8.30 p.m.
seconded.
said regarding the motion for adjournment either they gave a free hand to the plenipotentiaries or they tied them up. If they tie them up they would get no one to go. That was his opinion.
proposed the House adjourn till tomorrow morning.
seconded.
approved of the motion.
asked the President to say if he was going to reverse what the Ministry had done up to the present.
replied he quite appreciated at the present time that there should be such anxiety in the minds of the Dáil. It was really a vote of confidence. There was no use in electing a Ministry in the morning and in the evening passing a vote of no confidence. They wanted to do the best they could. None of them wanted to betray Ireland. The men or women who would be appointed would be men and women who served Ireland and who would be entitled to their confidence. He said no man or no woman could go over to negotiate in the conditions in which they were under the terms in which the Director of the Boycott wanted to suggest. What he was simply asking was that they confine themselves to one or two things—either let the Cabinet appoint the plenipotentiaries without ratification by the House or ratify them, but do not tie their hands by anything more than they had to be tied themselves by the British government—not to be tied in a knot by our own people at home. They should have a certain amount of freedom. If the Dáil wanted war then do not send them at all unless you want negotiations from the point of view of marking time. They had to remember this was a time they could pass over the opportunities that came in their way and as people responsible for the country they had to do the best they could for the country and they could not do that if they tied up the hands of their plenipotentiaries. He would oppose it to the extent of resigning. That did not at all mean that he would do anything to speak to them about.
said she would not like it to be understood that there was a suggestion that any want of confidence in the President or the Ministry, as they all felt convinced of that. She did move, she said, that the discussion be postponed.
SPEAKER:
That motion is out of order.
said he did not understand. But he would like to settle now that when the Ministry made a strong recommendation that their plenipotentiaries should be given a free hand, if the House voted that down it would be a vote of no confidence.
proposed that any plenipotentiaries appointed, whether by the Cabinet or the Dáil, should be given a free hand.
SPEAKER
said he was out of order.
moved that the whole matter be left to the Ministry.
said the way to do it would be this, that an amendment be put that the House adjourned until tomorrow when the question would be settled as to whether plenipotentiaries would be required or not.
SPEAKER
said they were all out of order.
pointed out that by the leave of the House the Speaker could take any motion.
SPEAKER
announced that all the motions were now withdrawn and he was prepared to receive any motion now proposed.
said he felt that the whole matter should be left in the hands of the Cabinet.
seconded that suggestion.
said he had already proposed as a motion that the plenipotentiaries' hands be not tied in any way whether those plenipotentiaries be appointed by the Cabinet or by the Dáil in meeting.
seconded that proposal.
said that speaking as Head of the Ministry he would ask the House definitely to support the motion. It was only in that way he believed they could do effective work. It was immaterial whether the Ministry appointed the plenipotentiaries or not: the main thing was that they went without being tied up.
said he did not want to press that motion as an amendment to Mr. O'Keeffe's proposal. He was proposing that at all events whoever appointed the plenipotentiaries that they be given a free hand.
seconded that proposal.
THE SPEAKER
said Mr. O'Keeffe's motion was before the House and he could not take Mr. de Róiste's order [recte motion].
MR. COSGRAVE
asked would Mr. O'Keeffe accept in addition to his motion the proposal that had been made by the member for Cork (L. de Róiste).
said he was very anxious the Dáil should ratify the plenipotentiaries.
asked the President were the credentials of the plenipotentiaries to come from the Dáil or should the Dáil in advance ratify what the plenipotentiaries should do.
replied that he would like to have done either of two things. He was anxious first of all that the plenipotentiaries should go with free hands. Seeing the attitude which he thought was not quite the attitude of certain members of the House he was anxious they should see who the plenipotentiaries were before they went, because he could imagine if any of the plenipotentiaries were here and if they were going unratified by the Dáil as a whole they might feel they would not have full liberty and sanction behind them. He wanted them to go with the whole powers of the Dáil. Therefore from a personal motive he was anxious they should be satisfied [recte ratified] by the Dáil.
said she thought there seemed to be a doubt in the minds of a good many of them. If the plenipotentiaries go they go with full power. But had the Dáil the power to say whether they go or not go?
replied certainly. That point could be raised at their ratification.
asked who was to interpret the letter which was coming now from the British government.
said the Cabinet would put a definite ministerial policy before them. The Cabinet would make a definite motion that plenipotentiaries be appointed.
said it was hardly likely there could be a meeting to-day.
SPEAKER
then put the motion proposed by Liam de Róiste and seconded by P. Ó Máille which read as follows:
"That if plenipotentiaries for negotiation be appointed, either by the Cabinet or the Dáil, such plenipotentiaries be given a free hand in such negotiations and duly to report to the Dáil".
This motion was adopted unanimously.
asked leave to make an explanation. It was stated by the President that certain indications had been given that a spirit had been here that he did not expect to be here. It was also suggested that what he proposed was a vote of no confidence. His whole point was that he understood that a plenipotentiary was a person who had power to make peace. I took it from that that those who went over from here would have that power.
said he was very sorry the misunderstanding arose. His interpretation of plenipotentiary was that men sent over to make peace come back and their actions were ratified or not. He was very sorry if he suggested anything that hurt anybody.