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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 2 Mar 1922

Vol. S2 No. 3

DEPUTIES' PRIVILEGES.

SEUMAS MAC GEARAILT:

A Chinn Chomhairle, agus a mhuintir na Dála, in accordance with the notice of motion which I have handed in to you I move the suspension of the Standing Orders of the day for the discussion of a special matter of National importance, as to the right of the individual member of this Assembly to information respecting all the interests of the member's own respective constituency. You had a statement from the President this morning precluding individual members of this Assembly from information respecting the workings of members of the body known as the Provisional Government. Now this raises the question of the supremacy of the Dáil. It is a vital matter and on that account I cannot apologise to you for keeping you at any great length. There was a question continually raised in the House about the powers of the Dáil. Now, we must admit that the powers of the Dáil were practically always limited. But I maintain that there is a difference between the power of an Assembly and the right of an Assembly to claim that power. Before the Truce, England had the power. Our power was limited. But we never denied the rights of this Assembly to speak on behalf of the sovereign Irish Nation, whenever the opportunity provided itself by virtue of the right to secure that power. Now the Treaty Party can claim everything——

SEUMAS MACGEARAILT:

—arising out of the power which the body known as the Provisional Government have at the present time. But as that body was set up with the cognisance of this Assembly —arising out of the action of the majority party in this House—I claim that this Assembly has the superior jurisdiction and that they are responsible to the people for all the actions of the body known as the Provisional Government and when they inform us that the policy of each is in complete harmony we realise that that should be so. However, the anomalous position arises that whereas they recognise that this body has the superior jurisdiction, they deny the right of individual members of this Assembly respecting certain workings of that body. Now I claim that it is not the right of any political majority to prevent the minority doing their best according to their own patriotic views, more especially without calling them obstructionists and wreckers, as President Griffith called me this morning.

SEUMAS MACGEARAILT:

The question was brought in now by the mention of the development and taking over of Haulbowline Dockyard. The Minister for Finance should understand that I have naturally interested myself in not only the taking over of Haulbowline but in the development of Cork Harbour as portion of the constituency that I represent.

Misrepresent.

SEUMAS MACGEARAILT:

They realise that I cannot recognise the authority of the Provisional Government, because in the meantime, pending the expression of the people's will, I have by taking my side against the Treaty denied that that body has any authority. There are certain powers relegated to them arising out of the majority action of this Dáil. To show that the matter of Haulbowline was taken up by me I will just read a letter I addressed to the Secretary of An Dáil on the 23rd November. Here is the letter:—

"3 East Hill,

Cobh,

23/11/21.

"Diarmuid O h-Eigeartaigh,

Rúnaidhe, Dáil Éireann.

"A chara,

At the opening of the truce period I placed certain material, concerning the Haulbowline Royal Dockyard, in the hands of the then Chief Liaison Officer, Mr. E. Duggan, T.D. for the then Minister of Labour, Mr. J. MacDonagh, T.D. This material purposed to prove that an injustice—a reprisal on the people of the district for their loyalty to the Republic, probably —was being perpetrated by the shutting down of Haulbowline.

"Mr. Duggan promised me to keep the matter in view, and to have the question disposed of when an opportunity was provided.

Mr. Duggan is now one of our plenipotentiaries and has an opportunity of disposing of the question from the point of view of an English reprisal with an accompanying breach of the truce or from the point of view of how Haulbowline would fare in the possible event of a settlement.

"Without wishing to learn anything concerning the negotiations at present proceeding between England's representatives and ours I would be thankful if you would ascertain from the President as to whether or not the matter of the closing of Haulbowline has received the attention it deserves.

"For his information I may mention that in Cobh, with a population of 10,000, there are at present 1,600 men signing the Labour Exchange Unemployment Book.

"Mise le meas,

S. Mac Gearailt."

Would not this be better as an election address?

There was at that time 1,600 individuals signing the Labour Exchange Unemployment Book. Now if I interest myself in my own constituents, I am told by the President that I want to wreck the advancement of Haulbowline. He may have obtained these impressions from certain individuals who, to the best of my knowledge, never did much, if anything, on the side of the Republic. But I challenge him to obtain an expression of opinion from any organised public body in my constituency that any move on my part was designed to wreck the advancement of Haulbowline. There was a body formed which was called the Cobh Development Committee for the purpose of looking after this matter, and I informed that Committee that if they thought, by virtue of my political opinions, that I would put in danger the advancement of Haulbowline I was quite willing to resign. They asked me to stay on. Even in my remarks here in the public session of the Dáil, I stated that I always wanted Haulbowline for the nation; and I state now again that I will help any side which wishes to secure it for the nation. But I must not be put in the position of being compelled to make an act of recognition of an authority that I do not recognise. If harmony exists between the Dáil and the Provisional Government the President can surely make arrangements for the supplying of information through this Assembly. Now I would refer both the President and the Minister for Finance to the Minister of Trade (Mr. Blythe) and ask him had I always approached this matter with a complete absence of Party spirit. I found after sending telegrams and letters to Mr. Blythe that he could not help me in this matter. The information was not put at his disposal, because he was merely a Minister of Dáil Éireann. I have reasons for requiring this information. In my opinion, the Provisional Government are allowing sectional and place-hunting interests to fawn upon them in this respect and I advised them and they spurned my advice. That was the reason why I called on the Minister for Economics. That explains how that arose.

Do not apologise.

I am not apologising for any of my actions. I had occasion to call upon the Minister of Labour in connection with a dispute in my area. I met one of the clerks in his Department and he asked me to come up to the City Hall and both the Minister of Labour and the Minister of Agriculture saw me speaking to that gentleman there. After my business was done, he told me that there was a matter concerning Haulbowline and it would be well if I called up to the Minister of Economics and spoke to him on the matter. It was not my fault if the Minister of Economics had not up special colours at that time to denote he was the Minister of Economics to the Provisional Government at that time and also if he did not ask me if I was speaking to him as Minister of the Provisional Government. If he imagines that I asked information from him respecting business that was not Dáil Éireann business, that is the difference between us. I claim that it is my right to obtain such information from the Provisional Government. If this information be denied us, the only conclusion we can arrive at is that Ireland for the first time is going to be governed by an autocracy comprising these gentlemen. In my opinion, they want to drive me into that position. The new election cry will be this—"The Provisional Government got us this and this; are the Dáil members of any use to us? He could not even get us information on the point."

SEUMAS MACGEARAILT:

If this Party spirit is not prevented and we at least unite for the purpose of law and order and industry, the responsibility must rest on the other side. I maintain that we can only do that by obtaining information from time to time. If this is refused, I firmly believe that not alone we but every democratic body in the country will shriek aloud in protest.

ACTING SPEAKER:

I call for a show of hands as to whether the discussion is to continue.

Seeing that the Deputy for Cobh has taken 25 minutes, I suppose we will get five minutes to answer him.

I also have a kind of feeling that the House wants to adjourn. I am very conscious of a kind of feeling of wanting to adjourn myself. But certain things raised by Mr. FitzGerald call for a definite reply. Some days ago he came to my office in the City Hall. I did not ask him who sent him but he came, and I can assure him I am not lying awake at night wondering whether that was an act of recognition. As to the purpose of his visit, I gathered after a good deal of time that it was to tell me that on a Committee I called into existence to advise me as to the future of Haulbowline that the basis of representation was wrong, and also to inform me that all the hands at present employed in Haulbowline must be dismissed and that they must get no preferential treatment in the event of Haulbowline being taken over by the Provisional Government. I was a little surprised at that. I am a little surprised at it still, and certain Labour people are surprised at it. However, I made a statement here at the beginning of the Session and I hope I made myself plain. Dáil Éireann met and the majority approved the Treaty. Certain steps were taken and a meeting of the members elected to the Southern Parliament was summoned. I think everyone here received an invitation. Everyone did not attend. However, that Assembly met and elected the Provisional Government and to that meeting, or to any of the members who attended it, I am prepared to give a very full and detailed account of my activities as a member of the Provisional Government. But, again, quite definitely I am not prepared to give an account of the things which I (as a member of the Provisional Government consequent of and by virtue of the Treaty) am doing to people whose aim and policy is to put the Treaty in the fire. I know that any information I would give them would be simply garbled by them as munitions against the country.

You are a nice man to have governing the country.

MR. O'HIGGINS:

Because I believe the Treaty is the best thing for the country, I will strengthen no man's hands to tear it up. As to Mr. Seumas FitzGerald——

He is referring to me. Am I a Deputy or not?

Well I believe you are. I told him that I would be very glad indeed to get any advice from him as to the personnel of the Committee, as to the future of Haulbowline and everything like that; that I would take a careful note of it and give it every consideration, but I also told him what I have told the Dáil here, that I do not hold myself responsible to him as a member of the Provisional Government for the things I do as a member of that Government. On the question of denying him information, I have only to say that I will deny him no information that he asks for in the proper spirit.

SEUMAS MACGEARAILT:

What spirit?

In a helpful spirit.

Do you want him to sing "God Save the King" outside the door?

I say any advice you give me or any assistance will be welcome. But Mr. FitzGerald came in not to help me but in an aggressive manner and he brought some one along with him to help him.

SEUMAS MACGEARAILT:

That man is a supporter of your own side.

I am glad to hear it. He looked quite a sensible man.

We will all have to get lessons in manners before we approach the Provisional Government.

That is a little too subtle for me.

He is not worth bothering about.

I want the people in my constituency to know how we are hampered here at every turn. My friend and colleague wanted information as a member of the Dáil with regard to Haulbowline which is part of his constituency and mine. He was denied it. I want to know why. The question was asked this morning of the Minister of Finance and he refused to answer that question except as a Minister of the Provisional Government. What concerns us is this—that every part of our constituency belongs to the people of that constituency as part of the people of Ireland, and not to any Provisional Government. We are responsible to the people of the constituency, and when we come up here we are told that we are not to get information. We are to go to the Provisional Government, which that constituency does not recognise. I want to make it perfectly clear to the people of Ireland.

I have no objection to telling Deputies Ceannt and MacGearailt that the future of Haulbowline is under consideration and that I am at present engaged in appointing a Committee to advise me, and through me, the Provisional Government on the matter.

The Dáil adjourned.

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