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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 10 May 1922

Vol. S2 No. 9

REPORT OF THE MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE.

I move the adoption of this report.

MR. COSGRAVE:

I second that.

I had hoped the Minister would be in a position to elaborate his Report somewhat in order that when he is replying to this discussion he may be able to give us more information. I am glad to find that the work of the land settlement is proceding very well both for the operations of the Land Settlement Commission and the Land Bank; and that a good deal of land has ben divided, and that the people have been planted upon it during the past few months.

While on this matter, I would like to correct a statement which appeared after the meeting of the Dáil in March.

I was not present while the Dáil was in progress, or otherwise I might have been able to correct this statement at the time. The Minister is reported as having said that there were sixty thousand acres of land in the hands of the Dáil Department and that that sixty thousand acres was lying practically idle for three years. I fancy that is a typographical error, because I am sure the Minister could never have said that. Last March three years there was no Land Department in existence. And there never was 60,000 acres of land lying idle in the hands of the Dáil Department. There never was, as a matter of fact, 6,000 acres of land lying idle.

With reference to the general report upon agriculture, I am in complete agreement with the sentence which says "The condition of agriculture generally is most unsatisfactory." But I do object to the propaganda that is being made, openly and covertly that we are responsible for the present unsatisfactory state of agriculture.

A DEPUTY:

And so you are.

That is a misstatement. The bad state of agriculture in Ireland is chiefly due to the fact that we do not live in water-tight compartments, that we are subject to world conditions. The good conditions in Irish agriculture began to collapse last June, with the result that they have gone from bad to worse. Long before the Treaty was signed and long before the two parties took shape in this assembly and long before any difficulties began to occur in the country, Irish agriculture had got such a frightful knock that even if we had perfect peace here in Ireland Irish agriculture would be struggling and struggling very badly now. Some people speak so lightly upon this subject that they would seem to think that farming is a kind of amusement undertaken by some good-natured people for the purpose of supplying us with food, Farming is a business, and farmers will not continue to engage in tillage, or cattle farming, unless they pay. The bulk of the cattle business of this country is the store cattle trade and the prices of store cattle have tumbled to nothing. Cattle were bought early in the spring of 1921, and farmers this year, thought themselves very happy when they were able to sell at a loss of £10 or £15 per head, plus the loss of the rent as well. Agricultural produce that had to be sold last autumn had to be sold at prices which hardly gave the farmer an opportunity of having anything in return for his labour or outlay.

The constituency that I represent is a great barley-producing country. During the period of the European war, barley went from 45/- to 50/- per barrel. Last year, in October or November, farmers were lucky to get 15/- to 20/- per barrel. Farming produce has tumbled in price, but the cost of production, owing to the high cost of living, has not tumbled, and I believe that the key to the present difficulty is to be found in the supercharging. Profiteering is going on to such a large extent that both sections of Dáil Éireann should do something to check those overcharges. You can buy farm produce, meat and other articles of food, in the market wholesale for little or nothing. But let any of your wives go into the shop to buy those things and you will see what you will pay for them. It has become a scandal. In Ireland, while the wholesale price of agricultural produce is probably the lowest of any in the world, the cost of living is probably higher than in any other part where travellers visit. It is much higher in Ireland than in England, Scotland or France.

I would like that we could consider agriculture as a thing above politics, the very same as the Local Government Department. We probably have some very good farmers and agricultural workers anti-Treaty, and some very good farmers and agricultural workers pro-Treaty, and we should get those people together along with the Minister for Agriculture, and the Minister for Trade, and try to devise some ways and means of helping agriculture to carry on. In my humble opinion the bad state of trade, generally, is due to the depression in agriculture. Practically all the money in this country that circulates comes straight out of the land, and if the farmer has not money to spend nobody else will have it to spend either. Because anyone who has lived through the prosperous years here, when cattle were selling well, could see the farmers and their daughters, and the workers upon the land going into the towns buying extravagant dresses and motor cars. But now that they have no money there is no stir in trade. I am afraid that while the European war was in being we got into bad habits; everyone of us got into an exaggerated style of living which present prices do not allow us to continue in, and to one and all the first necessities will be that everyone of us will have to tighten in our belts and go back a little bit towards the slave state from which agriculture was removed during the European war. It is no good saying you must have peace. If every one of us was shaking hands with each other and smiling and if there was no trouble in the country, this would not alter world conditions.

While the war was in progress on the Continent farming was occurring right up to the battle lines. And unless we can do something to make it worth while for farming to continue—in other words, whether it is a small farmer or a large farmer, make it worth while for him to till the land and carry on the various subsidiary industries connected with farming, like pig feeding, butter industries, dairying—the whole economic fabric of this country will collapse, and it will be no good for the other side to say it is our fault. It will not be our fault. It will be the fault of general world conditions, which have caused the further depression in prices, and it will be the fault of this Dáil, which should look after the interests of the people generally and the fault of the various organisations of farmers and workers outside, if they do not come together with the Ministers of this Assembly, and devise some ways and means of getting over this terrible depression which is worse than anything that has been in the world for the past 50 or 60 years years.

It is no use for any members of this House, no use for any Minister, especially the Minister for Agriculture, to point out to us that because some members of this House are opposing the Treaty, it must be the means of causing depression in agriculture. Everyone knows that for the past twelve months agriculture is in a deplorable condition. I am personally aware that there is no farmer in any part of Ireland who was able to make ends meet last year. Not alone that but everyone had a serious loss. Now for the proof that those who opposed the Treaty are not the cause of that, I will only point out to the Minister for Agriculture, and the members here present, that if they take up the daily papers and read the names of those attending Farmers' Unions and Landlords' Unions, they will find the names of hundreds who employ only a man and a dog. These are the men who support the Treaty because they are the men who never did any service to their country. They want to live in luxury at the people's expense, and all through the west of Ireland there are big ranches that would not be allowed in any country in the world outside the prairies. In Munster especially such a state of affairs is very rare. In my constituency which is more or less the biggest agricultural district in Ireland, the majority of the farmers are not large landholders. They all give a good deal of employment. Last year the prices for their produce did not enable them to make ends meet. I do not see that the Minister for Agriculture is taking any steps at all to remedy that state of affairs. Another thing, as he has taken over the Department of Agriculture, he is not giving it the attention that he said he would. He is functioning not as Minister of this Dáil, but as Minister of another Government. And to give you an instance of how he is doing it, he has one office belonging to this Dáil and he is never there at all. If you want to find him you never find him in that office at all. He is doing the work of this Dáil, not in that office, but in the office of the Provisional Government. When he wanted to collect the Land Annuities in the South of Ireland, and when he wanted to get decrees, did he hand the collection of those annuities to the Republican solicitors who would bring them before Republican Courts? He handed them over to the Crown prosecutors who are the persecutors of the people. He tried to bring them into an English Court, and he stands up here and says "I am the Minister for Agriculture in Dáil Éireann." He is nothing of the kind.

I would like to make a few brief remarks upon this report. One of the questions with which we have to deal is the question of transport, the organising of agriculture. There is no organisation of agriculture in this country and no efficient transport. This is a matter that cannot be dealt with except by a native Government. The fall in prices has hit farmers very hard and there is a great need of organization, a great need of the creation of industries and the development of industries associated with the land. We want to improve and develop the bad roads and we cannot do that until there is a stable and settled form of Government in the country.

There is another question. In the country there is a large population of young men who would have gone to foreign parts if we had not compulsorily prevented them. They have no employment, and the employment will have to be provided for them. A division of the land, a division of the large ranches, will have to take place and if it is not done soon we will have a landwar, because those young people will not be kept out of a way of living, and the sooner this Dáil realises that until we have a settled Government, to divide up that land by compulsory sale, and to settle the landless men on it, you will have a great deal of dissatisfaction and grumbling. I know from my own part of the country we are straight up against serious trouble in this matter, trouble that no Government will be able to control, and sooner or later a very sound and definite policy will have to be devised by the Government. This is one of the things that this Dáil ought bear in mind. The members of this House know perfectly well that there is now authority to get these things done, and that they can be done by native Government, and the people will tolerate no more delays. I would say to the Dáil to admit that. I have had experience myself in my own Comhairle Ceanntair of the difficulty of holding back young men from compulsorily breaking in and taking possession of these lands. If present conditions go on for three or four months more I have only to say that I do not think the people will tolerate the delay much longer.

Down in Cork there are several claims filed for farms of land by people who were evicted during the land strife. I wonder has the Minister for Agriculture any scheme by which these cases would be tried?

The Irish fisheries are in a bad way. I will not attribute that to the signing of the Treaty, but the causes he has outlined have, I must say, contributed to the position. Unless they are to be wiped out altogether something must be done to cope with the situation. The returns for the month of January last show that both the quantity and the value of fish landed in Ireland were just about one-half of what they were in January 1921, the figures being 15,053 cwt. and £14,888 as against 31,086 cwt. and £30,766, or a reduction of 16,033 cwt. and £15,878.

In the same period Scotland had a decrease of £487,507 for January 1922 compared with January 1921.

Our chief foreign "Freshing" or fresh fish market, is England, and here there is an over supply due to the visits of boats from the Scandinavian countries, and from Germany. There is an extraordinary effort made in Germany to improve the fishing industry and fishing companies there having an aggregate capital of 13,594,000 marks in 1913, had increased that amount to 74,000,000 marks at the end of last year. Five new companies have been formed. One paid 5 per cent., two 8 per cent., five 10 per cent., two 15 per cent., one 16 per cent., one eighteen per cent., five 20 per cent., and three 25 per cent. interest on capital last year. The Ger-Steam Fishing fleet had increased to about 350 vessels at the end of last year. Ireland sends consignments of fresh herring and mackerel to England but the delays in transit by rail and boat often result in the fish arriving in an unfit condition and the merchant receives a wire "consignment unsaleable" or some such communication. The Irish fish trader with England has no one to look after his interests there, and is at the mercy of the ring. The salmon fish trade in London is practically in the hands of a few who control the prices; Irish salmon is always graded as inferior to English or Scotch. The last returns I have seen quote the top price for Irish salmon as 2s. 9d. per lb., the English and Scotch as 3s. 1d.

The cured fish market for Irish mackerel is chiefly America. Here Irish mackerel, chiefly owing to inferior grading and packing, is noted as second class. The price obtained for the best Irish fish there in March was 30—32 dollars per 250—300 count. The tariff to be imposed under the Fordney Tariff Bill will practically ruin this trade. The proposal is for 1 per cent. per lb. including the weight of the "immediate" container and the brine pickle and salt. The last advice from New York states "Action duly expected soon, probably 2 dollars per barrel." It was proposed that the impost be 5 dollars per barrel. Mr. Fawsitt when in New York worked hard to prevent the imposition of this tariff, and here in Dublin we sought to get the Irish curers to form an association for which he could speak but they would not agree. Mr. Hugo Flynn stated that as he handled 10,000 barrels annually he could not be associated with a curer handling 100 barrels. I hope Mr. Fawsitt's successor in New York is carrying on the same activity. There is an opening there for cured herring. Scotch-cured herring realised 30 dollars per half barrel in New York in March last. The Russian pickled herring trade is apparently lost to Ireland. I note that the Norwegian Government have entered into an agreement with the Russian Government for the supply of 400,000 barrels of spring herring and about 394,000 cwts of salted herring. The agreement involves a sum, at normal exchange of £1,000,000. Norway shows the best example to Ireland. During the past months the Norwegians placed Cod Fish on the market at San Francisco, sent via the Panama Canal, and sold it at 2 cents per lb. cheaper than the Americans could sell their cargoes from Alaska.

Considering the foreign situation it is more and more necessary that we should develop the home market. Ireland certainly is, as has been described, "the worst fish-eating country in the world." We must institute a strong campaign to establish a fish market at home, and such an effort must receive the financial support of the Government. At the Economic Council we agreed to protection for Irish fish, inasmuch as the free importation of fresh fish from England was to be prohibited. We know that large quantities of fresh fish come to Ireland from the English markets. The fish comes in small parcels direct to the wealthy consumers and to public institutions. If the Dublin Fish Market was assured of a regular supply and the importation of fish from England was prohibited we could do much to cope with this trade. Dublin merchants would be willing to engage in it. There are many causes preventing development of our home markets. One is the delay and the cost of transit by rail. Even with the material to hand at his fishing centre the Irish fisherman cannot get his catch to market. In this connection I note that the fish merchants of Aberdeen have, owing to railway charges, installed a system of road transport to Glasgow. They find the cost of transport per ton works out at £1 8s. 0d. while the cost per rail by passenger train is £3 14s. 0d. per ton and per goods train £2 16s. 0d. It has occured to me that we might institute a system of road transport from say Galway to Dublin. The distance is about 126 miles. A motor lorry say carrying a couple of tons could do the journey in 10 or 12 hours to Dublin and could supply such centres as Athlone 53 miles, and Moate 10 miles further on. Road transport has the advantage over rail that the fish can be delivered at the distributing depot thus saving cost of carrying to and from the railway stations. I think it possible for the Minister to obtain a couple of lorries for this work. I have noticed a few passing through the city of late. I would suggest to him to start with Galway as a fish supplying centre, and it could be arranged that Arran and Gorumna would come to the Galway Port with their catches. If the fisherman were told they must gut and clean the fish, it would save them much in the way of perserving the freshness of the fish. There were instructions issued as to method. It is essential that the fish be bled immediately they are taken from the trawl. Given a fair trail it would be found to be successful. Other centres could be aided. Such an attempt would in my opinion, do much to establish home markets and would also give assistance and encouragement to the fishermen.

The fastest of the motor boats now idle could be employed to police the waters of the three mile limit. Such a proposal is before the Scottish Drift Net Fishermen's Association. The Inland Fisheries cannot be developed to their proper extent until much of the existing obstacles are removed. The rights, so called, granted by a confiscating English King are in the way of the common people, who fish for a livelihood. They are almost all in favour of the pleasure seeker. All this will need legislation.

Every country having a sea coast line gives governmental aid to develop the fishing industry. The Danish Government recently recommended a sum of 700,000 kroner, about £35,000 to be lent at 4 per cent. to Danish fishermen, to enable them to provide boats and gear for those lost in recent storms. The Swedish Government within the past few months advanced 1,137,400 kroner, roughly £56,000, as a loan to provide new boats and gear. Motors are to be provided. The repayment of loans extends from 5 to 8 years. I noticed that Mr. Mortensen, the Danish Director of Fisheries, in explaining the indirect subsidy for a steamer carrying fish to the English "Freshing" market stated that all countries give financial support to their fishermen. The policy of the English controlled Boards will not, I am certain be followed by the present Minister. When possible I hope he will proceed with the organisation of the Irish fisheries on the lines of Co-operating Fishing Societies with a Federation. This will alone ensure control of the industry and the establishment of a national brand, a guarantee of quality and quantity. It has been described as a quasi-socialistic policy but this will not make us afraid to follow it. It is the one way of ensuring the fisherman the fullest profit possible for his labours, and it will, I hope, receive the sanction and assistance of the Irish Government. I think the Minister agrees with me that such organisation is necessary and I hope that the new Government that is appointed here, under whatever conditions you appoint it, will follow upon those lines. The Fishing Industry was altogether neglected in Ireland. You had some derelict harbours that should be some great fishing centres but the purpose of the Government was to force the men into the English navy. We want our men at home to man the future Mercantile Marine.

I would try to urge upon the Ministry and I will ask the assistance of the whole House, apart from politics, to try and establish home markets. You could not, I believe, devote money to better purposes, because, the fishermen are in a very bad way, around the whole coast of Ireland. I think that something could be done in that direction. And now that there is freedom of action— ("Hear, hear!" and laughter). Yes, there is freedom of action. Don't try and bring politics into this. I don't think, so far as I have learned, the thing has extended outside the coast as yet. I have never heard of fishermen ambushing each other in the boats. We would want to get rid of that, and I would urge that we devote some money to the development of the home markets. I think it can be done by motor transport, and with the assistance of the members of this House, irrespective of whether they are pro-Treaty or anti-Treaty, and with the public Press outside it can be done.

I would like to supplement what Mr. Etchingham has said with regard to Irish fisheries. He has dealt fully with sea-fisheries, but the thing wants a little more extension with regard to inland fisheries. I would like to enquire what steps are being taken by the Department of Fisheries to prohibit the destruction of spawning salmon and trout while in fresh waters. It is a matter of common knowledge that this destruction has been going on in an aggravated form for the past few years and is bound in a very short time to have a serious effect on the earning of numbers of men who are engaged in the fishing industry at the estuaries of the larger rivers around our sea-board. From recent personal observations of some of the southern rivers which are the hatching beds of the spawn of salmon and trout I was amazed at the almost depleted conditions they presented. The fry of the salmon and sea trout leave the rivers when about 14 months old, leave the fresh water for the sea. These fry return if they escape destruction in the sea waters. They return at some time or other to the fresh waters, and mostly to that part of the coast from which they came, and often times to the same river in which they were spawned. It naturally follows if there is a wholesale destruction of the parent spawning fish a general depletion will follow, and with a scarcity of salmon in the river the result would be loss of employment to those engaged in the fishing industry in tidal waters, and loss of good food for the community.

With regard to the protection of spawning salmon, unless some steps are taken there will be no fish returned to the rivers. There will be no necessity to undertake any expense whatever. The first essential in the matter is, I think, the protection of the parent-spawning fish. I would suggest that this ought not be made a party question, and with a view to having something done at this Session of the Dáil, I would suggest that a Committee be formed to deal with the matter, and that they would meet and report to the House and that something definite should be done with regard to the protection of spawning fish. The Minister for Finance may try to shelve this because of the expense, but this thing could be managed by an efficient police force that would not entail much expense. Some Committee should be set up to deal with the matter now.

Níl puinn agam le radh. I want to put a brief question to the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries. There was an expenditure for the development in respect of the fisheries in Tirconnail and Lough Swilly. For many years continued pressure was kept up for the purpose of providing reasonable accommodation for the large fisheries on the coast of Donegal. It is a very congested area and the people largely lived from the profits they derived from this fishing industry. After extended labours the people there succeeded in securing a grant from the Development Commissioners of £35,000 on condition that £10,000 was given by the County Council. The County Council agreed to this, and the plans were issued for tenders and I think that the tenders had been received when the war broke out. The matter then stopped at once, and the thing lay in abeyance until the end of the war. Immediately after steps were taken up de novo and the Development Commissioners stated that the original plans would now cost £75,000 and that they would increase their amount from £35,000 to £75,000, and the County Council agreed to increase their grant also. I want to know what has happened to that grant, or how does the matter exactly stand, with regard to these harbour developments on the coast of Donegal?

I would like to urge that the action outlined should be taken soon. It is satisfactory that the Minister recognises that the work must be done but he gave no indication of when he proposed making a start. There is no work of more immediate urgency than this, because until this work is done claims and payments for special grants which have been submitted to the House by the Department for Local Government will be coming along, as unfortunately in almost every district or in the vast majority of districts acute distress prevails, and not merely casual distress but in those districts distress is continuous. And it will continue until the Fishing Industry has been simply recast and revised from the beginning and end, not merely in the matter of treating the fish but right from the start, and in the matter of equipment of the fisheries themselves. There is one particular reason which makes it very urgent just now. In some of those districts where the population has been accustomed to migrate yearly that migration has been held up and it is quite possible at the moment that in a comparatively small district in Cork one would find at present as many as 1,000 people more than were ever there before. They are there, because the migration was prevented. At present permits for emigration are being issued. Other attempts are made to relieve that state of affairs but they can only be unsatisfactory and temporary efforts, because owing to the nature of the district and the circumstances of the people there the one hope for permanent or satisfactory relief lies in the helping of the fishing industry.

Deputy Ceannt made the usual charge against me that my particular Department was not acting up to its pre-Truce level, and that charge has been made against practically every Minister who read his report here. But not a single fact or figure or attempt has been made to substantiate this. As far as land settlement is concerned, I am quite willing to be judged by results. And the report says as far as land settlement is concerned twice the area of land has been dealt with. In addition to that, about 60,000 acres of Land Bank land— that was what Mr. Art O'Connor was referring to—which was practically idle, to my own knowledge, for three years. was divided and 230 families have just been placed on that land. Now I could very easily enter into airy schemes about afforestation, water-power and that sort of thing, and let it at that. They would look well in a report, but I consider there is real solid work being done, when you take large tracts of land that had been idle and undivided for a great number of years, and put 230 families on that land —230 families that would otherwise have to go to America. I agree with Deputy Art O'Connor in a lot of what he has said. I believe that farming is an industry, and I agree with him in saying it is an industry that should be faced like any other industry. And to have increased tillage and ideal conditions farming must be made to pay. If you cannot show the farmer that the work you ask him to do will bring him a fair remuneration, like everybody else gets, he will not do it. I agree also that we are suffering from re-action from the prosperity of the war days. But that is all the more reason why the developments and reconstruction are necessary just now. And under present conditions developments and reconstruction are quite impossible. I am not complaining about our not shaking hands with each other, or smiling at each other, or anything like that. There is no necessity to do that either. What I am referring to is what you read every day—reports of bank robberies, and post offices, interference with road transports, burning of houses and so on. It is not politics or propaganda to say that all these activities are having a deleterious effect on agriculture, and agricultural industries as well as any other industry that is affected. That is a fact, whether it is politics or not. I will give you a concrete example. Land purchase is a very serious and important thing in agriculture. Now that finances of the old Acts have practically broken down for a number of reasons Stock is at 62 per cent. and it is very hard to make a bargain or to do equity between two parties when stock at 62 per cent. has to be accepted. Consequently the Acts are broken down. We realise that the first duty of any Government is the completion of land purchase. We are ready to complete land purchase. Our schemes are ready but we do want legislation. That is a matter of a week or a fortnight, but it is quite impossible under present conditions to adequately deal with land purchase, for this reason, that the financial credit of the country is not able to bear it. Everyone knows that the money that is advanced to the tenant for land purchase is borrowed by the State. It would take something like three or four millions a year to keep land purchase going at the rate that it should be going. I am not speaking of giving extravagant prices to the landowners. It does not matter much what price could be arranged. With an efficient Land Commission you can do justice to the landlord and the tenant; you can finance land purchase practically without cost if you have the credit of the country, and if you are able to issue stock on such terms that the interest will not be too high, and that the stock itself will suit the landlord. You would not get a million pounds on the Irish market if you issue a loan under the present conditions. While you have two armies in the country—three, and shortly four or five—you will not get anything like what would be adequate to keep land purchase going at anything like a normal rate.

I would like any Deputy in the House to solve that problem. I would like to get anyone's help. I want to get one constructive suggestion to get out of that difficulty. You will not get money for land purchase until things are normal. We have our schemes ready and are held up because the credit of the country under present circumstances is not able to finance land purchase on any scale that would be adequate to the problem to be dealt with.

Deputy Ceannt complained that the Land Commission went into the British Court to recover their annuities. There are no such things as British Courts in this country, and I make no excuse for going into our Courts to collect any debt that is due to the State. But the point I want to come to is this. At the present moment there are about £150,000 of arrears of Land Commission annuities since September. That annuity used to be paid with extraordinary regularity, and that was a very important factor in keeping land purchase going as it should go. The Irish farmer was showing that he was a good investment. At present, as you see, there are very large arrears. Now it is not because of upholding the Republic that these are withheld. It is not to help any side that they are withheld. They are withheld in a great many cases by people who are always ready to see the chance of putting money in their pockets at the expense of the State and at the expense of their neighbours. Every penny of that money is money lost to Ireland. That is direct loss. And the indirect loss is much greater. As I said, national financial credit is almost as delicate of adjustment as individual credit, and the withholding of these annuities will have a very bad effect upon the country. When the Government goes on with land purchase again this will be a serious handicap. The business man and the capitalist are not thinking about the recognition of the king; they are thinking of getting a safe investment for their money. You must remember that once you touch national credit it takes a long time to revive. The capitalist will remember that land commission annuities were held up this year and he will conclude that the next time there is a chance they will be held up again, and you will find it exceedingly difficult to get money on really reasonable terms. This fact has made the completion of land purchase very difficult and the farmer who at the present moment has his annuity in his pocket is standing between his less fortunate neighbour who has not purchased and the purchase of his holding by that neighbour. He is putting money in his own pocket, and helping to keep his less fortunate neighbour from purchasing his holding. I would like that to be known. Now let us come to industrial agriculture. In that connection, I would mention first the Drogheda Dead Meat Scheme. If there is one industry in this country that should be developed, both as a paying proposition and as an insurance against possible developments in the country it is the Dead Meat Industry. Probably the best equipped Dead Meat factory in these islands is in Drogheda. At the present moment that factory is there idle after having cost £600,000 for building the factory and putting up the plant and everything necessary to carry on a fine trade. That factory could be had for £200,000 this minute. But no one would buy it. I have been using every effort with business men to get them to re-open that factory. I have met all sorts and conditions of people. They wont put their money in it. Do you really expect business men to put money—to put their capital—into factories when they see houses burned, shops commandeered, goods seized, railway lines broken up and the banking system ruined? That is called propaganda politics but really I must say that I admire the assurance of the business men that could get up and contradict me on that point. No man who knows anything about business will agree that you can get business men to invest their money under such conditions. That is now an example of the industrial side of agriculture. You can't get industry going under present conditions. I can understand the man who will get up and say—who will admit the present conditions—but who will say that there are such great issues involved that these others pale into insignificance. I can understand that. But when I hear well-meaning people get up and admit the conditions but say they don't matter that is a thing I can't understand. These are the facts in regard to the two large aspects of this matter. Now I spoke about land purchase and I asked for a suggestion as to how it should be carried out and financed. There is an attempt being made to deal with the land problem by way of confiscation and I was expecting that some men on the opposition would get up and denounce that. It was up to any man who had the interest of the country at heart to denounce that. I expected that every man no matter on which side of the House he was would denounce that sort of thing. It was bad enough when this thing was dictated by mere greed. But when notices like this are served on Protestants——

That is going beyond the subject of the debate. This religious question does not arise at all.

I consider it right to mention it.

We are not here as policemen.

I want to talk about this problem of confiscation. That seems to be the alternative to land purchase. But I think certainly it ought to be of interest to every man to denounce it. I would like to know if it is the policy of any one here on one side or on the other side to permit that sort of the thing to go on. This is one example of the things which I wanted to give which make it exceedingly difficult for the Land Commission, or the Congested Districts Board, to deal with the really difficult problem—the problem of the western seaboard. The Congested Districts Board are at present operating in parts of Galway. They have built houses and they have mapped out holdings with the idea of bringing migrants from congested areas where there is no chance of land. Local landless men have gone in and seized these holdings. Now you have only one way of dealing with this problem and that is by migration. And the confiscation that is going on at present is making it impossible to deal with it. The really important aspect of it is this—whether you are for or against the Treaty you must all admit that English interference with agriculture has ceased absolutely. Illegal action of that sort while the English were here was necessary, absolutely necessary. It was, I might say, virtuous. But, with the English going, the illegal action of that sort is a crime. Now, you cannot shift it over on the English on this occasion. You may say that the people are dissatisfied with the Government. If they are they can change it, and the sooner that is realised the better. Illegal actions in this matter, taken against Irish services, run by Irishmen at the present time, are quite different from action taken against a foreign Government. We ought not be deluded by making a parallel with the conditions that existed when there was an English Government here. Illegal action should be denounced by every man who realises that distinction.

Now with regard to fisheries I do not think I would say very much about fisheries, because Deputy Etchingham, who is an authority, has told you himself all of what I intended to say. I agree that immediate action is necessary. I am asked by Deputy Donal O'Callaghan why it is not taken. I pointed out that there has been no adequate assistance given to Irish fisheries for the last thirty or forty years. The scheme that had been started had been inadequate and had been allowed to fall through, and the industry has got into such a condition at present that if you want to start now it must be altered radically. Very big schemes must be put into operation. It would take a long time to gather the necessary information. In the meantime, we can only deal with matters like giving relief to men who in the good times have been lent money by State Departments for the purchase of boats. If you plunge into this question it is a very big question. Deputy Dee mentioned that spawning beds were being interfered with and ruined all over the country. I quite agree, because I know where a man put in a million salmon and I know what happened. Here is a letter I had from a fishery owner in the west. I will read an extract from it.

"Since 1905 I have turned into the waters running into the Killory over one million fry, the increase of salmon in the river has been more marked. Formerly two boats earned a precarious living at the fishery and now 15 boats earn a living. However, I am sorry to say that all my waters have been systematically poached by men who say there is no law now, and the fisheries are free to everyone."

That is a specimen of what is happening. Mr. Dee suggests a conference. That is the usual way when you want a thing shelved. Has the man who makes such a suggestion any perspective? Set up a Commission to prevent spawning beds being poached, while the whole banking system of the country is threatened by bank robberies. There is no perspective in a man of that mind, who wants protection for spawning beds, at the same time that there is no protection for the whole banking industry of the country.

In regard to Mr. McGoldrick's question, the Development Commissioners do not admit that they agreed to provide a sum of money. They did agree before the war to provide a certain sum of money. The sum was increased afterwards, and though they say they gave a sort of provisional acceptance they do not agree that they entered into an absolute agreement. At the present time we are in negotiations with the Development Commissioners, and we are trying to get them to acknowledge liability for very large sums of money in which that sum was included. I am not in a position to say what the ultimate result would be but we are hoping that we would get some of it. This industry is in our hands now, virtually. It is a most serious thing and if we fail at it then we have nobody but ourselves to blame.

What I was endeavouring to advocate was the protection of spawning fish. I do not mean the fry, but the salmon itself before it spawns.

I crave the indulgence of the House to assure the Minister and the members generally of the other side that as far as I am personally concerned, and I am sure there are many members of the Party here that would agree with me, that on these matters of land and notices of confiscation I have no sympathy with the tactics indulged in by certain people. While the British were in occupation of this country and fighting against us very bitterly, a proposition was put up to me many times that we should retort by not paying land annuities. I declined to agree to that policy on the plea that it was killing the credit of the nation, that even though the English were our enemies, the Irish people had contracted to borrow a certain sum of money on certain terms and that they should fulfil the terms of that contract.

With reference to confiscation I do not sympathise with that at all. If people think they are entitled to certain land, and if they have a reasonable claim they should proceed to the ordinary Dáil Éireann Land Courts which are there available. And so much so did I believe in that that I have always acted on it up to the present. Two days ago I gave that self-same advice to a party in this House who received a request from a party who wanted to go into land and take it up forcibly. I do not approve of the confiscation of the lands of any individual. The only parties in this country who have any power to order lands to be dealt with in any particular way for the benefit of any individuals, or of the community in general, are the Government of the Republic and that is Dáil Éireann.

Motion put and agreed to.
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