Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 20 Sep 1922

Vol. 1 No. 8

Tuarasgabháil ón gCoiste ar Thuarastail agus Liúntaisí.

(Report of Committee on Salaries and Allowances).

Do ceapadh an Coiste seo ag an nDáil ar an 13 adh Meadhon Foghmhair, 1922, chun machtnamh do dhéanamh agus tuarasgabháil do thabhairt uatha ar na tuarastail agus na díoluíochtaí do bheadh oiriúnach do sna hoifigí atá ag sna hAirí, an Ceann Comhairle, an Leas-Cheann Comhairle agus na Teachtaí de Dháil Eireann. Do toghadh na baill seo leanas ar an gCoiste seo:--	This Committee was elected by the Dáil on September 13th, 1922, to consider and report on salaries and payments suitable for the various offices held by Ministers, the Ceann Comhairle, the Leas-Cheann Comhairle, and Teachtaí of Dáil Eireann. The following members were elected to this Committee:
Mícheál O Dubhghaill, Cathal O Seanáin, Tomás O Conaill, Séamus O Dóláin, Seoirse Mac Niocaill, Mícheál de Stáineas, Seosamh O Faoileacháin, Domhnall Mac Cárthaigh, Criostóir O Broin, agus Liam de Róiste.	Mícheál O Dubhghaill, Cathal O Seanáin, Tomás O Conaill, Séamus O Dóláin, Seoirse MacNiocaill Mícheál de Stáineas, Seosamh O Faoileacháin, Domhnall Mac Cárthaigh, Criostóir O Broin, agus Liam de Róiste.
Do réir an rúin seo do tháinig an Coiste le chéile cheithre uaire, Cathal O Seanáin i gceannus, agus do bheartuighdar an Liost de Thuarastail agus de Liúntaisí a ghabhann leis seo do mhola don Dáil.	In pursuance of this resolution the Committee met four times, Cathal O Seanáin in the chair, and decided to recommend the appended Schedule of Salaries and Allowances to the Dáil:
(Sighnithe)
CATHAL O SEANÁIN.	MÍCHEÁL DE STÁINEAS.
MÍCHEÁL O DUBHGHAILL.	DOMHNALL MAC CÁRTHAIGH.
TOMÁS O CONAILL.	CRIOSTÓIR O BROIN.
SÉAMUS O DÓLÁIN.	LIAM DE RÓISTE.
SEOIRSE MAC NIOCAILL.	SEOSAMH O FAOILEACHAIN.

19 adh Meadhon Foghmhair, 1922.

TUARASTAIL AGUS LIUNTAISI.	Salaries and Allowances,
1. UACHTARÁN NA hAIREACHTA.	1. PRESIDENT OF THE MINISTRY.
Go ndíolfar tuarastal de £2,500 per annum le Uachtarán na hAireachta.	That the President of the Ministry be paid a salary of £2,500 per annum.
2. AIRÍ SEACHAS ANt-UACHTARÁN.	2. MINISTERS OTHER THAN THE PRESIDENT.
Go ndíolfar tuarastal de £1,700 per annum le gach Aire seachas an t-Uachtarán.	That all Ministers other than the President be paid a salary of £1,700 per annum.
3. AN CEANN COMHAIRLE.	3. CEANN COMHAIRLE.
Go ndíolfar tuarastal de £1,700 per annum leis an gCeann Comhairle.	That the Ceann Comhairle be paid a salary of £1,700 per annum.
4. AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE.	4. LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE.
Go ndíolfar tuarastal de £1,000 per annum leis an Leas-Cheann Comhairle.	That the Leas-Cheann Comhairle be paid a salary of £1,000 per annum.
5. LIÚNTAS DO THEACHTAÍ.	5. ALLOWANCE OF TEACHTAÍ.
Go lomhálfar £30 sa mí chun costaisí do Theachtaí seachas Airí agus oifigigh den Dáil.	That Teachtaí other than Ministers and officials of the Dáil be allowed a sum of £30 per month towards expenses.
6. TAISTEAL.	TRAVELLING.
Go bhfaghaidh gach Teachta cóir thaistil sa chéad rang in aisge idir Bhaile Atha Cliath agus a Dháil-cheanntar. Go bhfaghfar an chóir thaistil sin ón Aireacht Airgid le plean pasanna.	6. That free first class railway travelling facilities be provided all Teachtaí between Dublin and the respective constituencies of Teachtaí. That such travelling facilities be provided by a system of vouchers provided by the Ministry of Finance.
7. Go ndéanfaidh an Aireacht Airgid aith-dhíol le gach Teachta as na costaisí taistil do chuir sé suas roimh na pasanna atá luaidhte i (6) do theacht amach ach cúntas cruinn d'fháil ar na costaisí sin.	7. That travelling expenses incurred by Teachtaí prior to the issue of the vouchers referred to in (6) be refunded by the Ministry of Finance to each Teachta on production by him of details in order.
OIFIGIGH NA DÁLA.	OFFICERS OF THE DÁIL.
8. Go ndíolfar tuarastal de £1,200 per annum le Cléireach na Dála.	8. That the Clerk of the Dáil be paid a salary of £1,200 per annum.
9. Go ndíolfar tuarastal de £850 per annum le Fo-Chléireach na Dála.	9. That the Assistant Clerk be paid a salary of £850 per annum.
10. Go ndíolfar tuarastal de £500 per annum le Captaen an Ghárda.	10. That the Captain of the Guard be paid a salary of £500 per annum.
DATA DÍOLUÍOCHTA.	DATE OF PAYMENTS.
11. Go ndéanfar gach díoluíocht chun costaisí Teachtaí ón l adh Iúl, 1922, ar choiníoll ná díolfar aon liúntas le haon Teachta no go mbeidh Rolla na Dála sighnithe agus a shuidheachán tógtha aige.	11. That all payments towards the expenses of Teachtaí be made as from July 1st, 1922, provided that no Teachta be paid any such allowance until he shall have signed the Roll of the Dáil, and taken his seat.
12. Go mbeidh tuarastal gach Aire indíolta ón 16 adh Eanair, 1922.	12. That the salaries of all Ministers be made retrospective as from January 16th, 1922.
13. Go mbeidh tuarastail an Uachtaráin agus Airí na Dála ar an ráta céanna le Airí an Rialtais Shealadaigh agus go mbeid indíolta ón 16 adh Eanair, 1922.	13. That the salaries of the President and Ministers of Dáil Eireann be at the same rate as those of Ministers of the Provisional Government, and be retrospective as from January 16th, 1922.
14. Go mbeidh tuarastail an Chinn Chomhairle agus an Leas-Chinn Chomhairle indíolta ó dháta a dtoghtha chun a n-oifigí fé seach.	14. That the salaries of the Ceann Comhairle and Leas-Cheann Comhairle be payable as from the date of their election to their respective offices.

CATHAL O SEANAIN:

A Chinn Comhairle, is mian liom iarraidh ar an nDáil seo glaca leis an dTuarasgabháil ó'n gCoiste ar Thuarastail agus Liuntaisí. Ní gádh dhom puinn a rá i dtaobh na rudaí atá ar an gcuntas so. Béidir gur cheart dom a rá ná fuil anso aon airgead do sna Teachtaí, ach costas.

I desire formally to move that the Dáil adopt the report of the Committee, appointed some days ago to report on salaries and allowances to Ministers, Chairman, Vice-Chairman and Deputies. The matters referring to the Officers of the Dáil were not, I think, specifically in the minds of the Deputies when this Committee was appointed, but we found them necessary to be dealt with by the Committee; otherwise they would require to be dealt with later on, and the Committee wanted to finish this work, and not to go back on any part of it. Having read the report, Mr. Speaker, I don't think it is necessary that much more should be said by me on this, but if any Deputy desires to put a question either to myself or to the Secretary of the Committee, Professor Whelehan, we will be glad to explain any point that may be raised.

Mr. J.B. WHELEHAN:

I wish formally to second that this report of the Committee on Salaries and Allowances be adopted by the Dáil.

Mr. GAVAN DUFFY:

I take it these proposals are only for the present — until the new Parliament meets under the Constitution.

CATHAL O'SHANNON:

That is so. I should have explained that in all these matters the Committee was considering only the provisional and temporary nature of this Parliament, and have made recommendations accordingly.

Mr. GAVAN DUFFY:

I take it that Teachtaí who are both members of Dáil Eireann and the Provisional Government will be paid only in respect of one of those positions, and not in respect of both?

CATHAL O'SHANNON:

Quite so.

Mr. GAVAN DUFFY:

I should like to ask Deputy O'Shannon whether he is assuming that the salaries for the various positions are intended not to be exempt from Income Tax, but that the payments to Dáil Members are exempt from Income Tax.

CATHAL O'SHANNON:

It will be noted that as regards the President, Ministers, the Speaker, Deputy Speaker, Clerk of the Dáil, Assistant Clerk and Captain of the Guard, the report specifies salaries. These gentlemen will, I think, be required to pay Income Tax. As regards the Deputies that is not so. The Committee's recommendation is that they be allowed a sum of £30 per month towards expenses. Therefore, they would not ordinarily be subject to payment of income tax.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE:

Has any other Deputy any question to ask?

Mr. FRANK McGUINNESS:

I wish to move an amendment that no allowances be made to Teachtaí for expenses or any other purpose in this Council, and I do so for the reason that the country is in a very poor state, financially, at the present time and, in my opinion, it cannot afford to pay these enormous salaries to the Ministers and expenses to the Deputies. I am not against payment from some source or another, but I think that the source is a wrong to the Nation from which you are about to draw this money. We have representatives here of several parties. We have the Free State Party. We have the Farmers' Party. We have the Labour Party. We have a sort of Independent Party, and we have a super-Independent Party, and I think the organisation that elected these different parties should bear the expenses of the Members they send here to represent them, and I, therefore, formally move that no allowance be made towards the expenses of the Members of this Dáil. I might go a little further and say——

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE:

Is not that a direct negative?

Mr. FRANK McGUINNESS:

And I do so for another reason. If any attempt is made later on to cut down these expenses and allowances we will likely have a strike, and the next thing that follows is that we will have picketing, and then the military will come out and shoot them to prevent them from picketing, and then we will have no Government. I, therefore, move a direct negative to the motion.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE:

You can take the Deputy as speaking against the motion to accept this report.

Mr. D. McCARTHY:

I think he is in order in moving that the question of the Deputies' salaries be deleted from that Report, and I hope he will get a seconder in order that we get a chance of telling Mr. McGuinness off.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE:

An amendment could be moved in the form that Recommendation No. 5 be omitted from the Report.

Mr. McGUINNESS:

I will move that.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE:

And all other references to it.

Mr. McGUINNESS:

Probably Deputy McCarthy would second me now.

Mr. D. McCARTHY:

With this object in view I will second the motion — so as to open a debate on it. This is a democratic assembly. It is all very well for Mr. McGuinness, who is a big merchant in Longford and able to pay his expenses, to talk about deleting expenses. It is quite a different thing for Deputies who have sacrificed their business. The expenses allowed will not even clear the hotel expenses incurred by the Deputies staying in Dublin. We were all agreed that Deputies should not get salaries. But it is not fair to ask the men who are doing the work of the Government and of the people to be out of pocket. There are very few bloated capitalists here. Perhaps Mr. McGuinness is one of them who can afford to carry on, but the allowance recommended by the Committee will not clear the hotel expenses of Deputies who are staying in Dublin to carry on the business of the Irish nation. Though opposed to it, I second it, so that when the voting comes along Mr. McGuinness will be left in a minority of one.

Mr. HENNESSY:

I would just like to say that what Deputy McCarthy has stated, to my mind is absolutely correct. The people sent us here to do certain work, and they do not grudge us the allowance recommended in this document that has been proposed by Deputy Shannon, provided that we have the moral courage to get on with the work and clear up the mess.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE:

An amendment to the motion proposed by Deputy O'Shannon is proposed by Deputy McGuinness and seconded by Deputy McCarthy. It is that Clause 5 be deleted from the Report.

The amendment was put and lost.

The motion was then put and carried.