This afternoon I gave notice of the following "To ask the President whether his attention has been called to the letter which appears in this morning's papers signed by Rev. Joseph Smith, C.P., Vice-Rector of Mount Argus, with reference to the treatment of a particular prisoner, and whether in view of this and many similar complaints which are being made the Government will consider the advisability of acting on the suggestion which has already been made in the Dáil and setting up an Independent Committee which will inquire into such complaints and furnish a report to this Parliament." The President, I understand, did not see the question until he came into the Dáil, and therefore had no time to consider a definite answer, and accordingly I have availed of the privilege which the new Standing Orders give me to bring the matter before the Dáil. I might say at the outset that I hold no brief for anybody in bringing this before the Dáil. I have had no communication from anybody. It is not at the request of any of the interested parties that I bring it forward, but in support of the general principles of fair play. It is a matter of common knowledge to this Dáil that widespread complaints have been made with regard to the treatment of prisoners. I need not mention specific cases. Instances of specific cases have been sent to us and sent to most of the members of this Dáil, I understand, and I am prepared to believe that many of these complaints may be exaggerated and that some are trivial. The majority of this Dáil have been, I understand, in prison at one time or another. I have not had that honour, and therefore I am not able to judge very well as to most of these statements and the value to be placed on them, but we have in to-day's paper a letter signed by a clergyman of some standing, in which definite specific charges are made. Although he refers to one specific case he implies quite clearly that it is not a single case. The President speaking to-day said that the writer of this letter cannot be regarded as impartial. If the President says that, I am prepared to accept his statement as I do not know the writer of the letter or the prisoner, but I take it that a man of the standing of the Rev. Joseph Smith would not state over his own name what he has stated in this letter unless there were good and substantial grounds for it. I think it is most essential that the matter of which he speaks should get the fullest and most public investigation possible. We know the use that is being made of statements of this kind, and we know the propaganda that is being made out of them. What I will say with regard to this letter is, that the writer appears to have made a prima facie case which is deserving of the fullest investigation, as well as the general question of the treatment of prisoners. These statements are either true or untrue. If true the indiscipline is such as to deserve the attention of the Government, and it is in the interests of the Government themselves, and the interest of the people of the country as a whole, that if these allegations are true the people responsible for them should be punished. If they are untrue, then it is even more in the interest of the Government and the people of the country and the Army that the untruth of these allegations should be exposed. That is why I urge most strongly on the Government the advisability of setting up an Independent Inquiry into these allegations to report to this Dáil as to their truth or untruth. That I hold is a proper way of going about this matter, and it is a proper way to stop the propaganda that is being made out of these complaints. If the Government refuses to do this, we know that their refusal will be used still further by way of propaganda. I do not raise this matter with any intention whatsoever of embarrassing the Government in any way. It is rather the opposite. I think that the interests of the Government and the interests of the Army itself will be served by an independent investigation of all the complaints that are being made. And I most strongly urge on the Government the advisability of setting up this Committee.
TREATMENT OF PRISONERS.
Mr. T.J. O'CONNELL:
I read this letter rather hastily this morning. Having heard something of the writer this week, I did not attach very much importance to it, but I intended to make inquiries. Now as the members of the Dáil may not have read this letter, I think it would be wise to give some extracts. It describes the visit of a clergyman to Wellington Barracks. That is to say Father Smith, or Father Joseph as he is better known describes a visit which one of the clergymen in Mount Argus made to Wellington Barracks. On the face of it it appeared to me strange that the rev. gentleman who made the visit did not himself write and give his opinions or experience, rather than allow Father Joseph to write it—the priest who was sent in answer to the call, which was that one of the prisoners—Fergus Murphy—was wounded and required the attendance of a priest. The letter states "the priest who was sent in answer to the call on presenting himself to the barrack was met by the authorities there, including the Medical Officer, with a blank denial that any prisoner was wounded... On his asking the prisoners whether Fergus Murphy had been wounded, many of them cried out that he had been almost beaten to death the previous night by Free State soldiers with the butts of their rifles." On reading the letter down I was unable to find that this clergyman, who visited Wellington Barracks, rendered any spiritual aid to Murphy. He may have done so, but it is not mentioned. In another part of the letter it is mentioned concerning Murphy that he appeared dazed and almost unable to stand. The next point I mention in connection with that letter is, that it is dated the 2nd October, and the incident described occurred on the 30th September. It appears to me that from purely humanitarian motives the writer of the letter should have taken more prompt steps to investigate and bring to the notice of the responsible persons the charges outlined in the letter. Possibly he does not recognise the Government. I quite appreciate Deputy O'Connell's statement that it is purely with a view to getting this question raised that he has brought it forward, and that he knows nothing about it but what has appeared in the paper. Now the letter is largely the comment of a second person. I suppose we would be entitled to conclude that if such things are done with our connivance, it is all right. Now, I will say nothing about this reverend gentleman. I know him personally. I am informed that he made some references to me in the Church. I do not know whether it is true or not. I am making enquiries. The report I have got from the Army authorities in connection with this matter is that the statement made in the letter was altogether exaggerated. The prisoner was suffering from a slight superficial wound on the left side of the head, about two inches above the ear; the left eye was blackened and there was a slight mark on the throat which, it is suggested, was caused by a nail. With reference to the other men being in bandages, the medical officer states that "this man came into the barracks suffering from old wounds. There are no prisoners in the barracks suffering from the effects of ill-treatment." Now investigation is taking place in this case, and disciplinary action will be taken if any charge is proved. There is one other matter in the letter. I will just read it, and the Dáil should know of it:— "I would not trouble your readers with all this if I had not a specific instance of cruelty for which I can certainly, vouch." Now I do not know whether Father Smith was the priest who came along to Wellington Barracks or not, but he makes mention of a priest and he describes the priest, and I concluded from the first reading of that letter that it was not he. But he says "I can personally vouch." Then he continues in the letter:—"I rely on this simple instance to prove that tortures are being inflicted on prisoners in Free State keeping (call these prisoners ‘Irregulars' or ‘Intransitives' or what you will) which no decent pagan would inflict on a dog or a rat. If this instance I have here outlined fails of proof, then, so far as I am concerned, the case for the alleged torture of prisoners falls to the ground." I would say Father Joseph is a poor logician. I enquired of the number of prisoners in the barracks, and I was told there are one hundred and forty there. And according to his logic, if this one case is proved, we are responsible for torturing one hundred and forty prisoners instead of one. Now, as I have said, disciplinary action will be taken if it can be proved that any of our soldiers are guilty. There are cases where it is quite possible that with a very large number of prisoners, some excesses should occur. We all understand that. The circumstances in which some of these men were taken, the charges against them, and the general effects of warlike operations, are well known. We know what they are and we know the provocation that our men have received. But the Government and the Army are not standing over any maltreatment of prisoners, and they will take disciplinary action in any case where we can bring it home to those who are responsible.
Mr. WM. O'BRIEN:
The President and the Dáil generally may take it that Deputy O'Connell in bringing forward this one case did not mean to rely entirely upon it. He brought it forward because there has been a campaign for a considerable time—widespread references are being made—to the ill-treatment of prisoners, and it seemed to him that the making of this specific complaint over the name of a responsible clergyman would afford a convenient opportunity for bringing this matter to a head and investigating this complaint in order to see if it is well founded. Now, Deputies are all aware that these allegations are being made, and we can quite believe that many of them are being made and exaggerated for propaganda purposes. But, making full allowance for all that, we cannot doubt that there must be some grounds for many of these allegations. I know myself certain prisoners have been arrested and whose innocence has been subsequently admitted and established— men who were not in sympathy with the forces in arms against the Government. These men were ill-treated and felt themselves in great danger because of the attitude and conduct of the soldiers, and I would join with Deputy O'Connell in urging that it is to the interest of the Government themselves to do something to meet this criticism and to establish that there is no widespread foundation for it, or to deal with them in a disciplinary way if the charges are well founded. It has been made clear from these benches that the Labour Members have no sympathy whatever with the war that is being waged or the ambushes that are taking place daily in the streets—ambushes inflicting far more damage on the citizens and the economic life of the country than upon the Army. We want to make that quite clear, and I would impress upon the Government that they ought not to allow these allegations to go on and that they ought to take an early opportunity of setting up an enquiry and probing these charges thoroughly, and so set at rest as far as they can all doubt as to whether these allegations are well founded or not.
Mr. O'HIGGINS:
There has been a campaign, as Deputy O'Brien remarks, on this question of prisoners. And he used and I use, the word "campaign" advisedly. The charges fall roughly under two heads—congestion and ill-treatment. That is congestion and actual physical ill-treatment. Now there is congestion, and it is surely to be regretted that so many people are in arms against this—the first Irish Government—that congestion in the prisons is the inevitable result. It is the opinion of this Dáil, and it is the opinion of the people of Ireland that there are more men in arms against this native administration at the moment, in one county, than there were in arms against the British throughout the length and breadth of the country when the British were here. And so there is congestion. And if they had succeeded in burning Maryborough Prison, there would be more congestion. But, as the Dáil knows, we are taking steps to deal with that congestion, and to deal with it in a very effective way. Now as to the question of physical ill-treatment—you see, we are children in some matters, but not in matters of this kind—in a matter of just what takes place in a gaol. Some of us were there ourselves and some of us were through what we call prison-rows ourselves, and we know, we always considered it good business to force our guards to take action against us which we could use as propaganda against the Government that the guards were responsible to. That is going on now. The men in the jails consider it a point of honour and principle and other high-sounding things to regularly force their guards to take measures against them, which their lady-friends outside can write up on the walls. These men are prisoners, military prisoners, many of them military prisoners where the fight is raging, and it is the duty of the guards to take strong measures to enforce discipline, to enforce prison regulations, and above all, to prevent escape. Lately, some men escaped from Cork prison, and it was necessary to search the prison to find out just where and how they escaped, and because the remaining prisoners were not allowed out of their cells promptly, on the stroke of 8.30 next morning, they proceeded to raise the good old-fashioned prison row. They smashed and yelled and so on, and some poor man who was in there formed a rather highly-coloured impression of the whole thing, and wrote a rather hysterical letter to a member of this Dáil about it. He was in for a day and a-half. He was arrested on a Thursday evening and released on a Saturday morning with an apology. During his short time, he had the misfortune to be there for the good old-fashioned prison row and formed a very highly-coloured impression of what took place. Now, I do not know really what Deputies here or people outside think of the present Government and the present Army Council, but we assure Deputies and the people that we do not stand for cruelty to prisoners, that wanton cruelty to prisoners, wherever it is traced, will be dealt with in a disciplinary way. But on the other hand, we do not stand for allowing prisoners to force a situation where discipline or all rules within a prison can be smashed so that they can escape. The soldiers and guards may be confronted with a position where they have to deal very strongly and very sternly with the prisoners or else allow discipline in a camp or a prison to disappear. They cannot allow that. Neither can they allow prisoners to escape or do things which, if continued and enlarged, would lead generally to their escape. If prisoners in the camps and jails settle down and obey the rules of the camps and jails, you would hear very little talk about dark deeds and ill-treatment and all the rest. The President has given an assurance that this particular case will be investigated. Any case referred to us will be investigated and promptly investigated, and if there be a wrong done, it will be dealt with firmly in an official way. But there will be no independent enquiry. What is meant by an independent enquiry? 50 per cent. irregulars and 50 per cent. supporters of the Government. As long as we are the Government we will enquire into any allegation of that kind.
Mr. WM. DAVIN:
I assume that the Minister for Home Affairs when he says we are the Government means this Dáil. Arising out of that, I would like to know, as a result of recent experience, whether or not a member of this Dáil has the right or if you wish, the privilege, of visiting any jail in his own area.
Mr. O'HIGGINS:
No.
Mr. DAVIN:
However, I rise to make more or less a personal explanation arising out of an incident so far as I am concerned which occurred in this Dáil some time ago. During a debate on a motion raised by Deputy Gavan Duffy, the Minister for Agriculture was harping and laying stress on the recent deplorable ambush in Leix—a division which I happen to represent. In the course of the debate, I happened to ask what had become of the leader of that ambush. In asking that question I was merely concerned, whether he was going to be tried and the charge which might be made against him. When I visited the constituency during the week, I met some officers of the Government and subsequently interviewed the Commandant of the jail and I gathered from what they said that I had inferred in the Dáil that the prisoner had been done in by National troops. I am taking advantage of the debate to say that no such thing, and no such idea was in my mind. I am satisfied where that particular individual lies at the moment.
Mr. A. BYRNE:
As there appears to be two sides to this particular question at the present moment, would it not be well if the Government for the sake of the honour of this Dáil, did appoint a small commission, to enquire into these special cases before us? In the interests of the troops outside I think it is essential some enquiry should take place. I am aware of several cases where mothers have sons, both in the Free State troops and also members of the Irregular forces. These people are keenly interested in this question, and arising out of the point raised by the last speaker, asking if any member of this Dáil would get a pass to investigate special cases himself, I think that concession ought to be given them, so that they might know exactly what state of truth was in it? In the past, I remember myself getting a special pass from the Government to visit English prisons. I think this Government would do a gracious deed, where a particular member is interested in a special case, by allowing him to get in and see the prisoner, and find out for himself the exact truth. If this thing is allowed to go on, you will have individual cases arising every day. You will have members on the Ministerial bench on one side, and members interested in cases sent them by their constituents giving a different complexion. I hold that the only way out is the point raised by Deputy O'Connell, that a small commission should be appointed. If not I should say the right referred to by Deputy Davin for a member to go and interview the prisoner, who may happen to be a constituent should be given. For the sake of the honour of the Dáil something like that should be done.
Mr. BLYTHE:
It would be quite impossible to agree to have a member of the Dáil or people outside the Army, investigating what would be a case of army indiscipline. The thing would be entirely inadmissible and produce bad results, instead of any good results that might be hoped for. This case has led to a discussion on prison treatment and gentlemen will, I think, in regard to that, with a Dáil like this——
Mr. DAVIN:
On a point of explanation——
Mr. BLYTHE:
I was not referring to you at all.
AN CEANN COMHAIRLE:
That was quite clear.
Mr. DAVIN:
The Minister responsible is getting away from the point I raised. I wanted to know if it is the right of a member of this Dáil to go in to see a prisoner.
Mr. BLYTHE:
Certainly not. Prisoners are not allowed the right of visits and there is no reason why an exception should be made in the case of a member of the Dáil. In regard to the treatment of prisoners, apart from acts, such as have been alleged in relation to this case, the Dáil constituted as this Dáil is, will not give more weight than is due to these allegations. We all know, in the case of prisons, that the stories which come out from the prisoners themselves are 75 per cent. of them absolutely untrue and without any foundation whatever. The other 25 per cent. are usually grossly exaggerated. If there were anything to be said about the treatment of prisoners, apart from—
AN CEANN COMHAIRLE:
The half-hour for the discussion of this matter is now up.