We will have to take Article 26 and insert in it any consequential changes in the wording resulting from the adoption of this particular motion.
DEBATES ON ADJOURNMENT. - I gCoiste ar an mBille um Bunreacht Shaorstát Eireann. (In Committee on the Constitution of Saorstát Eireann Bill.)
AN CEANN COMHAIRLE:
Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS:
I was going to do an invidious thing, if I may, which is to suggest to you that for simplification of the wording of the amendment the amendment which stands in the name of Deputy Fitzgibbon would cause less alterations than the one which stands in Deputy Magennis's name.
AN CEANN COMHAIRLE:
We have adopted a special procedure in the matter; we have decided the Dáil approves of the principle of University representation and the Minister will insert in Article 26 the wording to meet that idea.
Mr. THOMAS JOHNSON:
May I suggest that a matter of this kind which will require quite a number of consequential amendments may well come up, even out of order, later on the Committee stage without having to postpone it to a later stage of the discussion?
AN CEANN COMHAIRLE:
It might come on on a later Reading.
Mr. THOMAS JOHNSON:
I do not mean at a later Reading, but simply at a later date of this stage.
AN CEANN COMHAIRLE:
Consequential changes in the Article?
Mr. JOHNSON:
Yes, and any further consequential changes which will arise. It does not seem to me disorderly to have a discussion of Article 26 for instance, three days hence.
Mr. O'HIGGINS:
I think the consequential changes will be slight. They consist largely in arranging to remove University representation from the Seanad.
AN CEANN COMHAIRLE:
There will be some consequential changes in Article 26.
Mr. O'HIGGINS:
Yes, Article 26 reads:—"The Chamber/Dáil Eireann shall be composed of members who represent constituencies determined by law. The number of members shall be fixed from time to time by the Parliament/Oireachtas, but the total number of members of the Chamber/Dáil Eireann shall not be fixed at less than one member for each thirty thousand of the population, or at more than one member for each twenty-thousand of the population: Provided that the proportion between the number of members to be elected at any time for each constituency and the population of each constituency, as ascertained at the last preceding census, shall, so far as possible, be identical throughout the country. The members shall be elected upon principles of Proportional Representation. The Parliament/Oireachtas shall revise the constituencies at least once in every ten years, with due regard to changes in distribution of the population, but any alterations in the constituencies shall not take effect during the life of the Chamber/Dáil Eireann sitting when such revision is made."
AN CEANN COMHAIRLE:
The suggestion is that the consequential amendment should be taken later on.
Mr. FITZGIBBON:
Would not my first amendment meet all the requirements in Article 26: "That the number of members shall be fixed from time to time by Parliament, and that the total number be exclusive of University members"? Then there is the clause we paused, that Universities shall be entitled to send representatives, and then the Minister for Local Government's Electoral Bill will provide how many there is to be, and on that we will debate the principle and qualification of the elector.
Mr. JOHNSON:
That would be dangerous, surely, because the Bill may be easily amended by a later Dáil which might increase the representation.
Mr. FITZGIBBON:
That was in my mind as a real answer to Deputy Johnson's objection. My view is, that if Universities are given the franchise, and they choose to send here politicians or place-hunters, or people who may get in from anywhere else, they ought to be disfranchised.
AN CEANN COMHAIRLE:
I understood the matter was agreed that the details of representation would come on when we were discussing the electoral law. It is clear it is the right of any particular Dáil to make a change.
Professor MAGENNIS:
May I point out that my original amendment was to delete Article 26, and to substitute the following:—
"Dáil Eireann (the Chamber) (a) shall consist of members representing constituencies to be determined by law; and (b) members representing the Universities in the Saorstát Eireann/ Irish Free State.”
All you have to do to meet what we have done is to leave out the next sentence: "Every University in the Saorstát Eireann/lrish Free State shall be entitled to elect four representatives." Omit that. What I wish to come to is that all members of Dáil Eireann, that includes University representatives, how few or how many, shall be elected according to the principle of Proportional Representation to be determined by law. You will observe that reads differently from the wording of the original draft, which is according to the principle of Proportional Representation. It occurred to me it is just possible, because at the time the Constitution is being enacted there is only one type of Proportional Representation before us, that that might be deemed to be the acceptance of the single transferable vote, whereas it is just quite possible we may adopt the Belgian system or the German system, or evolve a system of our own.
AN CEANN COMHAIRLE:
That amendment is not before us now, and we cannot have a discussion at the moment on that point, as it will be left to the Ministry to amend this particular clause in the light of what the position is and bring it up at a later reading, and the question is whether we shall amend it here now or postpone the discussion on Article 26 to a later date.
Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS:
I think it would be better if left to the Ministry to draft any amendment or suggestion made by Deputy Johnson, and it should be reported back to us after we had finished with the clause on the Seanad.
AN CEANN COMHAIRLE:
That was what I suggested.
Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS:
It would be better, I think, if the Amendments 2 and 3 on the Orders of the Day—either that or No. 1—were to be accepted as the general line of the changes necessary to be made. The only reason I bring this about is, I happen to know, because of previous experience of this Article, that it is already sufficiently cumbersome as it stands, and I think it removes University representation altogether from it, save in one single sentence by way of proviso, and to remove it in an entirely new article would be simpler and clearer in the general body of the Constitution.
Mr. O'HIGGINS:
We propose to amend Article 26 in view of the decision the Dáil has given by accepting Deputy Fitzgibbon's amendment, and further down to insert after the word "members," in line 4, the words "exclusive of members for the University," and we would deal with the question of University representation in a separate Article. As regards any deletion that will be necessary because of the decision that is come to, it seemed to be provided for in the contingent amendments upon the paper.
AN CEANN COMHAIRLE:
Yes, there are contingent amendments.
Mr. O'HIGGINS:
I beg to move Article 26, subject to the necessary amendments arising out of the decision as to University representation.
Mr. JOHNSON:
Is that quite in order?
AN CEANN COMHAIRLE:
It is precisely what we decided in the beginning.
Mr. JOHNSON:
Yes, but the Minister now moves this clause subject to certain amendments. That practically points to the form in which it will come before us.
Mr. O'HIGGINS:
It will come up again.
AN CEANN COMHAIRLE:
It will coma up at a later stage.
Mr. JOHNSON:
I only hope to save discussion at the later stage. I preferred to have it come up in three or four days time; if that is not possible it does not matter.
AN CEANN COMHAIRLE:
It does not seem to be very vital, but what is proposed is exactly what was agreed to at the beginning.
Mr. JOHNSON:
Then I misunderstood it; it is all right.
Motion made and question put: "That Article 26, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
Agreed.
AN CEANN COMHAIRLE:
Amendment No. 3 on the Paper now goes out.