Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 11 Oct 1922

Vol. 1 No. 21

THE DÁIL IN COMMITTEE. - ARTICLE 78.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

I have taken a note of Deputy Gavan Duffy's suggestion. I now beg to move Article 78, which reads:—

"The first Senate/Seanad Eireann shall be constituted immediately after the coming into operation of this Constitution in the manner following, that is to say:—

(a) The first Senate/Seanad shall consist of two members elected by each of the Universities in the Irish Free State/Saorstát Eireann and fifty-six other members, of whom twenty-eight shall be elected and twenty-eight shall be nominated.

(b) The twenty-eight nominated members of the Senate/Seanad shall be nominated by the President of the Executive Council who shall, in making such nominations, have special regard to the providing of representation for groups or parties not then adequately represented in the Chamber/Dáil.

(c) The twenty-eight elected members of the Senate/Seanad shall be elected by the Chamber/Dáil Eireann voting on principles of Proportional Representation.

(d) Of the University members one member elected by each University, to be selected by lot, shall hold office for six years, the remaining University members shall hold office for the full period of twelve years.

(e) Of the twenty-eight nominated members, fourteen, to be selected by lot, shall hold office for the full period of twelve years, the remaining fourteen shall hold office for a period of six years.

(f) Of the twenty-eight elected members the first fourteen elected shall hold office for the period of nine years, the remaining fourteen shall hold office for the period of three years.

(g) At the termination of the period of office of any such members, members shall be elected in their place in manner provided by Article 31.

(h) Casual vacancies shall be filled in manner provided by Article 33.

(i) For the purpose of the election of members for any University under this Article, all persons whose names appear on the register for the University in force at the date of the coming into operation of this Constitution shall, notwithstanding anything in Article 14, be entitled to vote.”

The last portion of that Article has the effect of not putting in an age limit to the University voters for Seanad. The Electorate for Seanad/Eireann is limited to people upwards of 30 years of age. But in regard to University members it is decided that all people whose names are on the register of the University— that is to say, graduates—shall be entitled to vote. I do not think there is anything in the Article that calls for very special explanation. It simply provides that half of the Seanad shall be nominated by the President and the other half elected by the Dáil, the voting to be on Proportional Representation, and then that the half of the twenty-eight who shall be nominated shall hold office for twelve years, but that the other half shall hold office for six years, and these shall be selected by lot as to which shall hold office for twelve years and which for six years. And the elected members retire in the same way, half holding office for nine years and the remaining half for three years; and that the first election of Seanad takes place as provided in Articles 29, 30, and 31, and so on. I beg to move that the Article stand part of the Bill.

Mr. GOREY

I wish to draw your attention to Sections (a) and (d) in respect to University Members.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

There are amendments that will dispose of these.

Mr. GAVAN DUFFY

I beg to move as an amendment to insert at the opening of the Article the words, "Notwithstanding anything contained in Articles 14 and 32 hereof." I think that this amendment, which is merely a drafting amendment, will probably be accepted by everybody, and that I need not say anything about it.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

Yes, we will accept that amendment. It is simply again a question whether it is necessary or not. I think it emphasises the fact that this is a special arrangement for the first Seanad.

Mr. GOREY

What I meant when I intervened was in view of the arrangement Parliament came to with the University people.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

There are amendments on the Paper which provide for that precisely and explicitly. We will take Amendment 3 now, moved by Deputy Gavan Duffy. It is: "To insert at the opening of Article 78 the words, ‘Notwithstanding anything contained in Articles 14 and 32 hereof.'"

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. GERALD FITZGIBBON

I move now formally the amendment standing in my name—that is, "If new Article 27 is adopted, to delete (a)‘two members’ to ‘and,’ and the word ‘other’ after the words ‘fifty-six,’ and paragraphs (d) and (i).” The effect of this amendment will be to delete the provision for two members from each of the Universities being appointed by the Universities for the first Seanad. I do that in fulfilment of the promise I made when I consented to the amendment in favour of University representation in the Dáil. A bargain is a bargain, and as this Dáil conceded representation to the Universities of the nation—the right of representation in this Assembly of the nation—I now formally move that the representation in the Seanad be deleted accordingly.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

It is intended to write to the British Minister who summoned that meeting beyond where certain agreements were come to by the late President and by certain Southern Unionists, merely to acquaint him that in giving University representation in the Dáil we propose to depart from the letter of the agreement, as respects University representation of the Seanad. If these amendments are not accepted we would not propose to make the total number of Seanad less than 60. We would even be prepared to consider the question of not eliminating University representation in the Seanad, despite the acceptance by this Assembly of the principle of Proportional Representation, and so on.

Mr. JOHNSON

"A bargain is a bargain."

Mr. O'HIGGINS

We who are standing for the Bill do not set any particular store on that point, and we would be prepared to think it over. Certainly we would not bring the total number of Seanad lower than the present number of 60. I think in view of the emphatic endorsement in the leading Article of the "Irish Times" of Deputy Fitzgibbon's attitude on this matter of University Representation, and the departure from the strict letter of the agreement, that there will probably be very little difficulty about this, and we would undertake then to bring up alternative proposals on the next Reading, certainly, leaving the number of Seanad at 60, and possibly not eliminating University Representation, unless there is a very definite feeling here in favour of eliminating it.

Mr. GERALD FITZGIBBON

Would the Minister kindly assure the Dáil that he has not made that statement as the result of any communication with me or with any of the University members?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

I did not think that such an assurance was necessary. It is entirely a feeling of our own. We were not asked to give away that part of the bargain at all. No approaches whatever were made on the question. As a fact the idea was it might provide a useful link between the Seanad and the Dáil to have that particular representation in both. Without it there is very little link that one can see between the two Houses.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Shall we take this amendment?

Mr. FITZGIBBON

I cannot withdraw it. It must go to the Dáil.

Professor THRIFT

As another University Member, I would like to say that I also am perfectly prepared to support this amendment, as it was certainly part of the—so to speak—bargain that was made. I am perfectly ready to support the amendment in full. If the Government should think it would be an improvement to take the lines we suggested, it is not for us to say it. We have made what we regard as a bargain, and I am seconding Deputy Fitzgibbon, and am perfectly prepared to support him. If the Government decide to carry out this amendment, perhaps they would consider the possibility of adding the Universities to the body that was to be consulted by the President when he came to nominate the Members for the first Seanad, in accordance with the promise that was made by the late President Griffith.

Mr. THOMAS JOHNSON

I agree that there is no logical objection to special representation in the Seanad, once you conceded it for the Chamber, but certain arguments were adduced in favour of the representation in the Chamber as distinguished from the Seanad, and the Dáil agreed, on the strength of these arguments, to change the representation from the Seanad to the Chamber. Now it is proposed not only to consider the wisdom of giving the University graduates representation in the Chamber, but also to give them representation in this Seanad—a double privilege. I think that if that had been made clear to the Dáil before the vote was taken, there would have been a difference in the result; and while, no doubt, it is very nice and kind of the Ministry to make these offers inviting pressure in that direction, it is not desirable, I think, that the courtesy should be extended beyond the limits that have been asked. It is a privilege, and I think we should recognise it as such, The people who represent the Universities in the Chamber may go to the Seanad and act as a link. If that is not possible, there is no link, and there is nothing in the Constitution whatever— there may be in electoral law—to prevent this.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

There is.

Mr. JOHNSON

Perhaps I am wrong. Undoubtedly you are doubling the privilege that you are giving to the University Graduates. Bear in mind this is not representation of Universities, although it is called such. It is representation of men and women who went through Universities once and have cut all connection, possibly, with those Universities, and I for one would protest against any extension of this privilege. I was not very emphatic, though I raised a protest against the matter, on the last occasion, but if it is intended to double the privilege I think there should be a very emphatic protest made against the proposal.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

In view of the Deputy's expression of opinion, I think we ought simply to let Deputy Fitzgibbon's amendments go as they stand.

Amendments put and agreed to.

Mr. FITZGIBBON

That extends also to paragraphs D. and I. of the same Clause.

Motion made and question put:—"That Article 78, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

Agreed.