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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 18 Oct 1922

Vol. 1 No. 23

THE RIGHTS OF CHILDREN.

Mr. THOMAS JOHNSON

I beg to move the following new Article to follow after Article 10:—

"The right of the children to food, clothing and shelter and education sufficient for their physical welfare and training as citizens of Saorstát Eireann is guaranteed."

I would like to be able to say that this Constitution is a charter for the children of the future. Despite the possible shortcomings of the parents, it is for us to say that the sins of the fathers shall not be visited upon their children. When we are about organising the community we ought to bind ourselves for the future so far as we can bind the future to assure to the children of the nation sustenance, shelter and education sufficient to equip them for their duties and responsibilities as citizens. If we are agreeable, and if we determine to insert such a provision as this, it would bind future Parliaments against any interference with the rights of the children in this matter of sustenance. I think we were reminded upon the last reading of this Bill that there were Poor Law rights even to-day, and that under the Poor Law children will be maintained, but I do not think that anybody would argue here that it is a desirable state of things to limit their sustenance to the Poor Law level as we know it, and I think it will be admitted that the education they receive in Poor Law institutions is not of a kind that will fit them for training as citizens of Saorstát Eireann. I would like it to go out to the country that this Dáil at any rate is prepared, in so far as it can bind the future, to bind that future to say that the rights of the children to food, clothing, shelter and education are guaranteed. There is a possibility that even the rights that are guaranteed to-day under the Poor Law system may be abrogated. We have representatives of an organisation which claims to be nation-wide, to use an American term, a very important organisation in the mind of the spokesman, who are already out to reduce the rights of the children to education, and possibly, it is quite conceivable, that that body or some such body might go very much further and achieve such power and influence that these present elementary rights of sustenance established under the Poor Law, that they even may be lost. I would like to lay down in the Constitution that the children of the Irish Nation have to be guaranteed sustenance, so that, at any rate, they will not be at the loss of the means of life and comfort and education. I beg to move this motion.

Mr. J. LYONS

I wish to second this motion, and I wish to add and endorse every word that Deputy Johnson has said with regard to his amendment, because it is one of the most necessary amendments yet put forward, and I hope that the Dáil will agree to it. And let us prove at least that we are out for the welfare of the children, if not for the welfare of the citizens.

Mr. E. BLYTHE

The objection which I have to this clause is very much the same objection as the clause which was moved at an earlier stage. It is that this proposed Article if adopted would not carry us the least bit further. At present the children have a certain right to food, clothing, shelter and education. Neither the food, clothing, shelter or education may be such as we desire. But at least they have the right to these things, and any suggestion that any organisation would take away the rights of the children to food, clothing and shelter is, I think, entirely fantastic. Now, Deputy Johnson said that such an association was out to reduce the rights of education, and that the adoption of this Article would obviate or reduce that danger. In fact this Article is so vague that it would not protect the rights that actually exist at the moment. The intention of the Article is to extend them, but it is so drawn, that it does not achieve that, but, at any rate, if these rights are to be extended it should be done by specific legislation considered on its merits with regard to the machinery of ways and means. I do not think it achieves that right, and because it does not achieve anything I do not think it should be included.

On a division the question that the new Article be inserted in the Bill was defeated, the voting being as follows:—

Tá.

Níl.

Pádraig Ó Gamhna.Darghal Figes.Tomás Mac Eóin.Ailfrid Ó Broin.Liam Mag Aonghusa.Tomás Ó Conaill.Aodh Ó Cúlacháin.Séamus Éabhróid.Liam Ó Daimhin.Seán Ó Laidhin.Nioclás Ó Faolain.Domhnall Ó Ceallacháin.12

Liam T. Mac Cosgair.Seán Ó Maolruaidh.Seán Ó Lideadha.Micheál Ó hAonghusa.Seán Mac Haol.Séamus Breathnach.Peadar Mac a' Bhaird.Seán Ó Ruanaidh.Micheál de Duram.Micheál de Staineas.Maolmhuire Mac Eochadha.Earnán Altún.Sir Séamus Craig.Gearóid Mac Giobúin.Liam Thrift.Eóin Mac Neill.Pádraig Ó hOgáin.Seosamh Ó Faoileacháin.Seoirse Mac Niocaill.Séamus Ó Cruadhlaoich.Criostóir Ó Broin.Ristéard Mac Liam.Caoimhghin Ó hUigín.Tomás Mac Artúir.Aindriu Ó Laimhín.Proinsias Mag Aonghusa.Peadar Ó hAodha.Séamus Ó Murchadha.Seosamh Mac Giolla Bhríghde.Tomás Ó Domhnaill.Earnan de Blaghd.Uinseann de Faoite.Micheál Ó Dubhghaill.33

Mr. T.J. O'CONNELL

I wish to move the amendment which stands in my name. It will be in the memory of the Dáil that on a previous occasion when this Article was being considered an amendment which stood in my name was withdrawn in order to consider the wording of the amendment and on the understanding that it would be brought forward at this stage. Now the Article as it stands in the draft at present—Article 11—is weak and to my mind indefinite and apt to lead to confusion. It says, "all citizens of the Irish Free State have the right to free elementary education." Well, all citizens, I take it without limitation or conditions laid down as to the age. We might have peculiar complications arising from that if it were left in that form. It might happen, for instance, that any citizen, no matter what his age, might make a claim on the State for free elementary education, and before the State could refuse it would have to establish that that citizen had received an elementary education. Then the word elementary, to my mind, would also lead to confusion, because it would be necessary to define what elementary means in this connection, and at the present time it is rather undecided. It would then depend on some constitutional lawyers to define what this word elementary means. Some might define it and say that a man who is able to write his name had received an elementary education. On the other hand you might get another judge who might say it brought a man up to the University standard. In any case I think the amendment which stands in my name is much more definite and will meet the necessities of the case in a better way than the Article as it stands, i.e., that “Provision shall be made by the State for the free education of the young up to an age to be prescribed by law. School attendance shall be compulsory.” With regard to the second portion of it, there is no use in making provision for free education and going to the expense which this entails unless we further provide that the people for whom it is provided will avail of it. I beg to move the amendment.

Professor MAGENNIS

I would like to second that, if it would be in order to make a slight alteration in the words, not merely to change the form of expression, but to introduce a slight additional matter.

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

It would be better if someone seconded the amendment.

Mr. WM. O'BRIEN

I second the amendment.

Professor MAGENNIS

I wish to propose an amendment as follows:—"Provision shall be made by Saorstát Eireann for the free education of the young, and for their compulsory attendance at school up to such an age, and to such a stage of instruction as shall be prescribed by law." The reason why I suggest bringing the last clause into the body of the original statement is that "school attendance shall be compulsory," left by itself in isolation is too wide; it does not say attendance of whom or at what school. It merely says attendance at school is compulsory. Whereas by making it an integral element in the other statement, what is really provided for is that the children of the country are bound to get education in so far as they shall not be able to raise the plea of poverty in extenuation for non-attendance; and then inasmuch as they are provided with free education, education is made compulsory, and it is free up to a certain stage of instruction. I think we cannot go beyond that. There are children incapable of undergoing instruction beyond a certain stage because of mental deficiency. There are imbecile children, and children who are not exactly open to be pronounced imbeciles, and yet are very poor stuff for the teachers' work, and, of course, in an educational code with a future Dáil, or perhaps this Dáil acting as the Chamber of the Free State Parliament, may enact such a code, and in it provision might be made for exemption from attendance on the score of medical judgment, or such things as would be reasonably taken by the public authority to exempt them from attendance. I do not think I need labour the matter because it has been sufficiently before you. We are all, I think, urgently desirous of having, not only a free Nation, but an educated Nation. The two things go together, as, in fact, I have so frequently stated. No nation, no people, can grow to its full stature unless with the aid of education. Consequently, this is another of those amendments which satisfy the requirements I have spoken of earlier for restoring the Gaelic state.

Mr. T.J. O'CONNELL

Before the Minister speaks I may say that I accept Professor Magennis's amendment.

Professor MacNEILL

I admit that the provision in the Constitution as it stands is not absolutely definite. It provides that all citizens have the right to free elementary education, and it has been pointed out by the mover of the amendment that this does not state how much, or what degree, or what extent of education is meant by the word "elementary." The same criticism exactly applies to the amendment. The amendment makes no provision whatsoever as to the amount, the degree, or the character of the education to be provided, but simply provides that education shall con tinue during a certain length of time. I would like to make my own position clear with regard to this question of the position of the State in relation to education. My position is that the right of education, in the first place and fundamentally, belongs to the parents of the children, or those who are in loco-parentis, so long as the children are properly under that parental control: in the first place, and fundamentally, that that is the higher right, a more fundamental right, than any right possessed by the State. Especially in this matter of education it is most necessary that we should be all clear in our minds, at all stages, that the State exists for the benefit of the citizens, and not the citizens for the benefit of the State; that the children of the people do not belong to the State, but that, on the contrary, the State belongs to the people and to the children of the people, and we must be extremely careful in anything that we lay down as a general principle that we do not say or appear to say that the control of education belongs as by right to the State. It belongs to the State only by right of service. Now, I do not see that we can do more. The Article in the Draft Constitution is undoubtedly indefinite, but I think it is essential that it shall be indefinite, for the simple reason that not one of us, no matter how much experience we have, nor all our collective experience, I think we would admit, is wise enough to define what is sufficient education for children. We are finding that out and trying to find it out every day. Nor do I think it well that we should attempt to define a common standard of education, nor anything that would appear to be a common standard of education for all children. I hold that the right of children to education, when the State undertakes the responsibility of providing it, is what we were reminded about with regard to another question which arose early this evening, the right of equal liberty. That right of equal liberty is, in this case, even less a matter of identity and more of equality, but it is equal opportunity in proportion to capacity. For that reason I think it is as well that what we are attempting to define as the duty of the State with regard to education should be left not too definite, and that we should leave it to the wisdom, or unwisdom, of those who will be the Legislature of the State to give it definite form from time to time, as it may seem best to them. Now I pass to the other question, that school attendance shall be compulsory. I would object to that in any form, either stated as baldly as it is there or even implied and passed into another clause to be stated in the Constitution, because it seems to me that it runs contrary to the principle I have already laid down. I hold that I, as a parent, or any other parent, in discharging our duty to our children, have a right to consider ourselves capable of educating our children at home by bringing in such teachers as we chose to educate them, and that consequently it cannot be said that we are bound to send our children to any particular private school or a number of private schools. On that point we must be clear; so that while I hold that it is right that the law should intervene in the case of dereliction of duty, as it does for the protection of children in many other respects, at the same time to lay down that the law, or rather the Constitution, should state beforehand that every child may be compelled to use such provision for education as may be provided by the State is fundamentally wrong in principle. With all these things in view it seems to me that, while undoubtedly the Article in the Constitution does not make clear and definite provision, it at all events lays down that there shall be a minimum of provision, and beyond that it seems to me very difficult to go. The Article as it stands in the Draft Constitution is to me very much preferable to the amendment.

Mr. T. JOHNSON

I think that the greater part of the argument of the Minister who has just sat down might have been enunciated in support of the amendment that has been proposed, with the improvement suggested by Deputy Magennis. In the Draft Constitution as moved there is not provision, as the Minister wrongly suggested, for education.

Professor MacNEILL

I corrected my statement in that form. At least, I intended to do so.

Mr. T. JOHNSON

Well, I did not notice the correction. "All citizens of the Irish Free State have the right of free elementary education." There is no assurance there that the parents will make use of that right. It might be said, from the argument that might be adduced, that all citizens of the Irish Free State have the right to refuse to educate their children; that might just equally be read from the Article as it appears, and from the argument adduced by the Minister. I do not think that he would contend that the parent has a right to refuse to educate his children.

Professor MacNEILL

I thought I made it clear that in that case, as in any other case, it would be right for the State to intervene in order to prevent a dereliction of duty.

Mr. T. JOHNSON

That is the intention of this amendment as moved by Deputy O'Connell, that provision shall be made for education up to such an age, or to such a stage, as shall be prescribed by law. The amendment is to ensure that such provision shall be made so that parents may be enabled to exercise their duty and their right. The Minister objected to the suggestion of compulsory school attendance. As the proposal is amended it is quite competent to define that the compulsory attendance at school may mean at the source of instruction—may be the parent and the home. There is no need to define that as being some place apart from the home. Speaking for myself, I am at one with the Minister in saying that the parent who can provide such education as will stand the requisite test, without sending the children to school, is perfectly entitled to claim that those children have fulfilled the requirements. I do not want to insist that all children shall go to a particular school or be confined to a particular curriculum, but I do want to ensure that there shall be a minimum standard of education arrived at by all children. I think the arguments that were used by the Minister are entirely in support of the amendment that is proposed by Deputy O'Connell, and rather contravene, in their implications, the Article proposed in the Draft. I beg to support the proposition of Deputy O'Connell.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

There are just a few comments I would like to make on the proposed amendment—"Provision shall be made by the State for the free education of the young up to an age to be prescribed by law" The Article in the Draft is "All citizens of the Irish Free State have the right to free elementary education." The Article in the Draft defines the right of the citizen, as against the State. The other takes a somewhat different angle and says that as between certain ages, up to an age to be prescribed by law, the State must make provision for the free education of the young. What I fear, there, is that this amendment is loosely worded and it might well mean if you fix the age at 14 or 15 you will have some desperately precocious youngster "sticking" the State—if I may use a vulgar expression —for not merely his elementary education, but for secondary education, and possibly for a certain amount of University education. If the amendment contemplates that the State may in certain circumstances have to bear the burden of secondary education of a boy who happens to be within the age limit that is something we ought to examine very carefully, and it must be taken relative to the resources of the State. I daresay many here would like to see the State in a position to provide for the education of citizens in secondary schools— possibly in the University—up to a measure, but to set down here that the State definitely accepts the burden of the education of the young, up to a certain age, is something we ought not to do.

Mr. THOMAS JOHNSON

It does not state the age.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

"Up to an age to be prescribed by law." Then you would be in this difficulty, you would either have to fix the age very low, for fear of being had for secondary education, or if you fix it at a proper age—14 or 15—the possibility is you would have people claiming education in secondary schools.

Mr. JOHNSON

Succeeding Parliaments will do that.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

Article 72 says:—"All Acts in existence at the moment that are inconsistent with the Constitution shall remain in force until repealed or amended." And there is a Compulsory Attendance Act in existence though it is not too obvious at the moment, for the reason that the machinery is not there. In any case it has not been in force for some time.

Mr. T.J. O'CONNELL

It is only a permissive Act.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

It is one of those Acts that may be adopted by a particular local authority. The obvious course would be to bring pressure on the local authorities to adopt it.

Mr. O'CONNELL

That is what we are doing.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

To say that free elementary education is a vague expression, and then use education qualified only by the single adjective "free" is not much of a step forward. It seems to me that the one thing emphasised in the amendment is that up to a certain age all citizens shall have the right of being educated by the State, and that is laying down a proposition which we would hesitate to accept, for the reasons stated.

Professor MAGENNIS

Would it be in order to point out to the Minister that that is not what is asked for? It is merely that the State shall provide. In other words the State is to see to it that no child shall go without education.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

The two Ministers who have spoken on this amendment, I think, have commended it with considerable strength, one by the lameness of the defence of his original Article, and the other by an argument that practically was in support of the amendment. This original Article underwent a great many forms, and was reduced finally to a single sentence, which gives the substance—I think a very naked substance, inasmuch as it definitely prescribes nothing. I think the strongest argument that appeals to my mind in favour of the amendment is this, that if any Deputy reading Article 11 of the Draft Constitution were to be asked to define what he thought it meant I think he would define it in the terms of the amendment now proposed. I think there is hardly a single Deputy of whom that would not be true. There has been an argument put forward that, inasmuch as there is a certain Act that already exists by which education at schools may be made compulsory, precludes the necessity of any such provision in the Constitution is, I think, not the soundest of possible arguments. It is true there is a body of law in rule and in force and effect in Ireland at the present moment by which what is known as Habeas Corpus is permitted, but will anyone think of writing a Constitution without making that a provision? Because there happens to be current legislation, which we take over, dealing with the right of children to education does not alter the fact that the right of children to education is so fundamental that it ought to be written into the Constitution. We have excluded it from the Constitution. No one desires it to be excluded. That is why Article 11 appeared in the first instance, and I think Article 11 is not sufficiently expansive, not sufficiently explanatory, and if any Deputy were asked to define what was in his mind from that sentence that at present constitutes Article 11 he would give such a definition as is now in the amendment. I think the amendment is therefore a distinct improvement, because it is—well, more lucid.

Mr. P. HOGAN

Article 11 reads:—"All citizens of the Irish Free State/ Saorstát Eireann have the right to free elementary education. Now, that does not prescribe compulsory attendance at school. The other Article does. That is the one very big difference between them, and that is the reason I prefer Article 11 to the Article that is suggested instead of it. I think we can all agree a Constitution, so far as it does not deal with the mere mechanics of Government, should only deal with fundamental rights. We deal with the only fundamental right in this connection in Article 11, the right of the citizen to the opportunity of education. Compulsory school attendance is another matter, is a mere detail in that connection. I suggest that the sensible view is for the Constitution to make quite sure that this particular fundamental right, the opportunity of free elementary education, but that when you come to questions of compulsory attendance and questions of that sort you come to questions which are more appropriate to an Act of Parliament. When you talk about compulsory attendance you must talk about the machinery, or you should be talking about the machinery to enforce attendance, and you should be particularly careful that any Act of Parliament, let us say, that deals with education and compulsory attendance at school does not take away what Professor John MacNeill pointed out, the right of the parent in the matter. This case of compulsory attendance is essentially a question that should be dealt with specifically and carefully defined. It has no place whatever in a Constitution. All that a Constitution is really concerned with is the fundamental right, and that fundamental right is defined, so far as it is right to define it, in the Constitution.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

On that point I would like to ask the Minister one question which I would like him to answer for the general elucidation of the Dáil—this is apart from the question of compulsory attendance, would he consider the passive form of Article 11, or the active form of the amendment the better?

Mr. HOGAN

I prefer Article 11.

Professor MAGENNIS

As arguments are intended to secure our votes, would it be fair to ask the Minister to say what he means by the statement—they shall have the right? Is it something to be never exercised, or is it to be operative?

Mr. HUGHES

I believe Article 11 as it stands is better than the amendment as amended by Deputy Magennis, or the amendment as it originally stood. Because, as far as education for the young is concerned, so long as you have it briefly laid down that children have the right to education, I believe it is the principle we should embody in this Constitution. If there are other things, such as compulsory education, or laying down a standard to which children should be educated, I think that should be done by legislation at a later date. For that reason alone I favour the Article as it stands in the Constitution.

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

Deputy O'Connell in his amendment wishes to accept words suggested by Deputy Magennis. That cannot be done unless Deputy O'Connell has the permission of the Dáil to make the change.

Mr. E. BLYTHE

That is agreed.

The CLERK of the DAIL

read the amendment: "Provision shall be made by Saorstát Eireann for the free edu cation of the young, and for their compulsory attendance at school up to such an age, and such a stage of instruction, as shall be prescribed for by law."

The amendment was put to the Dáil, and declared lost.

On a division the amendment was lost by 33 votes to 14:—

Tá.

Níl.

Pádraig Ó Gamhna.Tomás de Nogla.Darghal Figes.Tomás Mac Eoin.Seoirse Ghabhain Uí Dhubhthaigh.Liam Ó Briain.Liam Mag Aonghusa.Tomás Ó Conaill.Aodh Ó Cúlacháin.Séamus Éabhróid.Liam Ó Daimhin.Seán Ó Laidhin.Nioclás Ó Faoláin.Domhnall Ó Ceallacháin.

Liam T. Mac Cosgair.Seán Ó Maolruaidh.Seán Ó Lideadha.Micheál Ó hAonghusa.Seán Mac Haol.Séamus Breathnach.Deasmhumhain Mac Gearailt.Seán Ó Ruanaidh.Micheál de Duram.Ailfrid Ó Broin.Micheál de Staineas.Seosamh Mac Craith.Éarnán Altún.Sir Séamus Craig.Gearóid Mac Giobúin.Liam Thrift.Eóin Mac Néill.Pádraig Ó hOgáin.Seosamh Ó Faoileacháin.Séamus Ó Cruadhlaoich.Criostóir Ó Broin.Ristéard Mac Liam.Caoimhghin Ó hUigín.Aindriu Ó Laimhín.Ristéard Ó hAodha.Proinsias Mag Aonghusa.Peadar Ó hAodha.Séamus Ó Murchadha.Seosamh Mac Giolla Bhrighde.Tomás Ó Domhnaill.Earnan de Blaghd.Uinseann de Faoite.Micheál Ó Dubhghaill.

Mr. T.J. O'CONNELL

I wish to move: "To insert the following new Article after Article 11—Private Schools for the instruction of young persons within the limits of age which may be prescribed for compulsory attendance shall not be established except on conditions to be determined by law, and every person engaged as a teacher in any school attended by such young persons must possess educational qualifications to be prescribed by law." The object of this amendment is for the protection of young persons. The State, in my opinion, owes a duty to children, and part of that duty is to protect them from exploitation, exploitation especially for private gain. At present, although we have a regular system of education—it may not be, and it is not anything, like what we desire it to be—there is nothing to prevent any body or any individual setting up a private school and plastering the walls of a town with advertisements pointing out the magnificent nature of the instruction that is given in particular academy, thus possibly imposing on credulous people. The State does not step in as I maintain it should, to prevent a person doing that, unless on certain prescribed conditions. We do not allow anybody who wishes to set up an establishment for the sale of spiritous liquors for private gain. They have to fulfil certain conditions laid down by the law, but that does not necessarily mean that having fulfilled these conditions, and having obtained permission under them to engage in the sale of spiritous liquors, that the State has the right to step in and to indicate the particular class of liquor that ought to be sold, or rather the particular amount of stock that should be kept, or how many assistants he should employ. The management of the shop is left largely in the hands of the licensed person. The statement of the Minister for Education, when speaking on the last amendment, brings to my mind the necessity for speaking on this question of parental right. I agree thoroughly that the right of the parent in the matter of education is fundamental At the same time I do not admit that the State has not the right, if and when necessary, to protect the child, even against the parent, or against dereliction of duty on the part of the parent. I am glad to notice the Minister agrees with me in that. Whenever this matter of education is mentioned it seems to me there is always a tendency to cry out about interference with parental right. It is well known to us all that the State does in many matters interfere with parental right and protects the child, if and when necessary, against the misdemeanours and the misdeeds of the parent. We have many instances of that which I need not here quote. There is another misconception which is very prevalent, and which I think it very necessary to remove. There seems to be an impression in many quarters that advocacy of State interference of any kind in the matter of education is an advocacy of what is sometimes termed godless education. I do not think there is anybody in this Dáil, and certainly not on these benches, who would advocate anything which might be described as godless education. To my mind, there are two aspects of education—definite and distinct. You have the civil and the social aspect, and you have the moral and religious aspect. It is the concern of the State to deal with education from the civil and social aspect; it is not the duty of the State to interfere with education from the moral and religious aspect. Nothing in this amendment of mine can be taken to mean that. With regard to the second portion of it, it is well known that we protect the children and the people against unqualified doctors and dentists; I do not know whether we do protect them against unqualified lawyers. There is more reason why we should protect young children against teachers who do not possess necessary qualifications. The effect of a teacher on the minds of young people is enormous; it can do much good, and likewise it can do very great evil, and it is not asking too much that protection be afforded by having certain qualifications prescribed by law. It may, and possibly will, be argued that these are matters for legislation. I have heard that argument put up on several occasions when it seemed to suit Ministers. If they were to be consistent, they could write the Constitution in three lines and say that the right of Ireland to freedom is hereby guaranteed, leaving it then to legislation to show how the mechanical rights to freedom should be carried out. If that is the argument in one case it ought to be equally the argument in the other case. I commend this amendment for the consideration of the Dáil, and I hope it will be accepted.

Mr. N. PHELAN

I formally second the motion.

Professor EOIN MacNEILL

I trust this amendment will not be pressed to a division. The Deputy who has moved it, I can see from his latter remarks, is fencing off the blow that he knows is coming, namely, that it will be dealt with by legislation.

Mr. T.J. O'CONNELL

I am getting used to that.

Professor EOIN MacNEILL

I think it is clear that if there is anything at all that should be left to legislation it would be a matter of this kind, and here again I must say that, as worded, the amendment seems to me to come at the question from the wrong approach. The private school may not be established except on conditions determined by law. It seems to me that no provision of that kind should go into the Constitution. I feel, and the more I am in touch with the difficulties of education the more I feel the great folly of people who happen to be an authority, no matter whether they be Boards or individuals, or what they are, assuming that they have all the wisdom that is necessary, and that some private person may not come along and in a private way by private enterprise do something far wiser than anything they ever conceived. I think possibly we have here people who themselves were either pupils or whose children were pupils of St. Enda's School, established by Patrick Pearse, a bold educational experiment. Now, it would be very unfortunate if our Constitution were to contain a provision that would prevent a bold experiment of that kind being made, and, of course, that could not be made unless it was put for two or three, or several years to the test. I think it would be wrong to lay down any principle in the Constitution that would prevent initiative in the matter of education. And it is not so much, to my mind, the question of the State carrying on a system of education in which there would be no religion. I think that our experience in this country teaches us that the people who are charged with the defence of religion are very well able to defend it. The whole question goes wider than this amendment. It has a different aspect, and that is that the tendency is not so much of taking away parental right as to deprive parents of the sense of responsibility that they ought to have by doing as much as possible for them through the State machine, and leaving as little as possible to be done by themselves. I hold it is better to allow people go wrong sometimes than always to attempt to compel them to go right. I do not think there is very great danger of schools running as imposters for a length of time even by the aid of very vigorous advertisement, and even if they do, and succeed for some time in imposing—that is an exceptional thing— the imposture will be found out. That could not be prevented, as suggested in the amendment itself, by conditions to be laid down by law, and for that reason I think we should not be justified at all in adopting into our Constitution the principle which is the starting point of this amendment, and that is "Thou shalt not establish a private school."

Professor WM. MAGENNIS

The Minister for Education is always interesting, but the interesting things he says are not always relevant. The principle that underlies this amendment is that education is a national concern. Furthermore that in a country where there is a Food and Drugs Act, in a country where we take such precautions to see that no unqualified medical man shall conduct novel and daring experiments, open hospitals, and try all sorts of new remedies, authorised merely because there are those who are willing to undergo the experiment, that in a country where we take extraordinary precautions that if a man holds himself out as a solicitor and writes a letter using a form of language intending to impress upon the reader that he is a solicitor, he can be prosecuted. Here we are in a country where we profess we seek to form a Gaelic state, and re-create in the people a reverence for education, next only to their reverence for religion—education—the one thing necessary, the one thing without which the people cannot live their lives fully, and get the greatest measure of advantage out of life—are we to allow anyone who choses to hire a back room in a city, and call it an educational institution for the young, and decorate himself with any title, to use the phrase the President used the other day, is he to be allowed to do so with impunity without any remedy or redress to the parents. What we want to secure is that lest children are subjected to that kind of treatment on the part of such so-called teacher the State shall see to it that the practitioner is qualified for his duty. There is a limit to the rights of parents— a well-defined limit. A parent is not entitled for the sake of the child's salvation to baptise it, and then throw it in the river. It may be a very noble sentiment to allow it to go out of life in a state of baptismal innocence, but the law will indict and imprison the parent who has committed any such offence.

Professor MacNEILL

There is no Article about that in the Constitution.

Professor MAGENNIS

It is true that infanticide is not referred to by name. There are various forms of infanticide. There is such a thing, for instance, as death in life, and to suffer death in life, so a badly trained teacher, or an untrained teacher may be quite more evil and more injurious to the State than an actual murderer. How many criminals are there in the community due to defective education, wrongly instilled instruction, abstract statements imparted to youth without the necessary reservations or without the practical wisdom required; in short, the communication of national hysteria from badly trained teachers giving instructions without ever having gone through the preliminary educational training necessary. The imparting of education is an art, a practical art, precisely of the same complexity and the same public value as efficiency in medicine, and that should never be lost sight of. We do not allow parents to play tricks with their children in the name of parental freedom. If the parents send the children out to beg, is there not a law to punish them for that? Surely according to the Minister for Education the parent has the duty to exercise proper regard for the interest of his children. Now, what we want to see laid down as a fundamental provision, is, that the State will protect itself—that is what it amounts to—from the ill-directed efforts of the amateur educationists. That has been the plague, the blight, on education—that every man who is unfit is allowed to be an educationist. There are certain things in the amendment—certain forms of phrases to which I do not feel myself able to subscribe, but the cardinal principle in it commends itself to me. I do not think this is a case in which it is a sufficient answer to reply that it is a matter for legislation; however, let it come up in the Educational Code. I think it should be in the Educational Code as well as in the Constitution. This is a Constitutional requirement just as much as that the house of a citizen ought to be his castle. Just as much as the person of man is inviolable, so the soul and mind of the child ought to be inviolable and not to be placed at the mercy of everyone who seems to think he has a right to make a living by the business of "education."

Mr. JOHNSON

I would like to draw the attention of Deputies, and particularly the Minister for Education, to a sub-leader in one of the morning papers upon this very important question—the vogue of psycho-analysis. It is pointed out in this Article that the schoolmaster and the schoolmistress, or particularly those people who call themselves by those names, are dabbling in this science of the mind, and using their opportunities as teachers in private schools to ruin the minds of the children. That is the kind of thing that is going on, and that ought to be guarded against in some way, if not by the method proposed in the amendment.

It is not merely the ineffective teacher, but it is the experimentor that is possibly dangerous unless there is some kind of supervision. I agree whole-heartedly with the proposition that was made by the Minister that we should encourage experiments in education. But that must be within limits, and limits that are prescribed by law. But if you are going to allow liberty for any person who takes up a fad of this kind—and we are only on the fringe of discovery in these psychic matters, I expect—if we are going to allow the child mind to be experimented upon without any restriction, it may be a very dangerous thing indeed, and I think that the object of the amendment is to prevent the possibility of that kind of thing developing.

Mr. P. HOGAN

Well, Professor Magennis complimented Professor McNeill on his cleverness, and I think I can do the same for Professor Magennis himself. Let us see where we are. Professor Magennis drew a picture of an ignoramus starting a school and getting children into it. He agreed with Deputy O'Connell that it was quite possible to have the dead walls of a particular town placarded with advertisements praising the school, and as a result, parents might send their children there, and that in that way, they would be very badly and very poorly educated. But he did not tell us how this particular amendment was going to remedy all this. He did not tell us how any possible Act of Parliament could remedy this, or how any possible qualifications that might be prescribed in an Act of Parliament could remedy that. I am sure Deputy O'Connell will agree with me that there is no ignoramus more dangerous than an ignoramus with a degree; and that it is not mere academic qualifications that make a good teacher. I am sure of that. And I put it to him that no Act of Parliament will do it, and if I ask Deputy O'Connell to devise an Act of Parliament for me now to make it perfectly sure that every school would be safeguarded against this thing, I don't think he could do it. And I do not think that anybody else could do it. I do not think that any qualification which you could put into an Act of Parliament will ensure as a matter of course, the kind of school he wants. Deputy Magennis attempted to draw an analogy between the qualifications of doctors, solicitors, lawyers and so on. There is absolutely no analogy. Every one of us knows that some of the best schools, some of the schools which have turned out pupils who made history, science, literature in every domain of letters and education, have been schools which have been run by men who had not the sort of qualifications likely to be put into an Act of Parliament. It is because education is so much higher, because it is so fundamental, it is because it is such a personal matter, such a close thing between the teacher and the taught, that it is necessary and vital. It is necessary at least, that there should be freedom of experiment. I think that on consideration most people will agree that Professor MacNeill was sound when he pointed out the necessity of allowing people to experiment in that direction. This amendment really does nothing. It contains a principle which has been already refused by the Dáil—this principle of compulsory attendance—at least the Dáil has refused to put it into the Constitution.

Mr. T.J. O'CONNELL

On a point of explanation I would like to submit that the words in the amendment "Within the limits of age which may be prescribed for compulsory attendance" is not a matter that has been already prescribed, but the Minister for Home Affairs said they were already prescribed.

Mr. P. HOGAN

You are quite right about that. I was going to show that this particular amendment would have to be debated and qualified very carefully before it could appear in an Act of Parliament, but it certainly has no place whatever in the Constitution.

The CLERK of the DAIL

then read the amendment as follows:—

"Private schools for the instruction of young persons within the limits of age which may be prescribed for compulsory attendance shall not be established except on conditions to be determined by law, and every person engaged as a teacher in any school attended by such young persons must possess educational qualifications to be prescribed by law."

Amendment put and negatived.

Mr. KEVIN O'HIGGINS

There is in the draft Constitution Article 12, which says "the rights of the State in and to natural resources, the use of which is of national importance, shall not be alienated. Their exploitation by private individuals or associations shall be permitted only under State supervision and in accordance with conditions and regulations approved by legislation." The amendment I have to propose involves the deletion of that Article and it reads as follows:—

"All the lands and waters, mines and minerals, within the territory of the Irish Free State hitherto vested in the State, or any department thereof, or held for the public use or benefit, and also all the natural resources of the same territory (including the air and all forms of potential energy), and also all royalties arising within that territory shall, from and after the date of the coming into operation of this Constitution, belong to the Irish Free State, subject to any trusts, grants, leases or concessions then existing in respect thereof, or any valid private interest therein, and shall be controlled and administered by the Parliament, in accordance with such regulations and provisions as shall be from time to time approved by legislation, but the same shall not, nor shall any part thereof, be alienated, but may in the public interest be from time to time granted by way of lease or licence to work under the authority and subject to the control of the Parliament. Provided that no such lease or licence may be made for a term exceeding ninety-nine years, beginning from the date thereof, and no such lease or licence may be renewable by the terms thereof."

I think that it may be found that that meets the purpose which Deputy Figgis had in mind in setting down his amendment. He, of course, will speak for himself in due course. It reserves to the State all the land, waters, mines, minerals and all forms of potential energy within the area of the State, and it forbids their alienation and it lays down that the longest term of any lease shall be ninety-nine years, and that no such lease can provide for its own renewal. It protects the country that has become politically free from becoming economically unfree by reason of having its resources bought up by capitalists of other countries. I would be rather anxious to hear whether Deputy Figgis considers it a good substitute for his amendment.

Mr. BLYTHE

I second the amendment.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

I am quite prepared to withdraw mine, seeing this has been put in its place. I think that the Article that is now being proposed by the Minister for Home Affairs disposes of my Amendments No. 21 (A and B) and No. 40 (A) further down in the Orders of the Day, which I imagine we will hardly reach to-day, although it does not deal with 40 (B) which will arise in its own place. My remarks on that will keep. Substantially the Article that is now being moved, by the Minister for Home Affairs, as will be apparent to anyone studying the three paragraphs I had put down myself, meets the case. There are two that are matters of words and one omission of substance to which I would like to draw the attention of the Minister of Home Affairs. I will take them in sequence as they arise. The first is the question of words. It occurs in the second line. There you have "all the land and water within the territory of the Irish Free State, hitherto vested in the State": now to eliminate the parentheses and to come to the rest of the sentence "vested in the State belong to the Irish Free State"—that is the sentence, and I think there is some gap there somewhere. Take this sentence, "all these things, within the territory Irish Free State, hitherto vested in the State belong to the Irish Free State." That is a sentence one can hardly stand over. I understand and appreciate the difficulty quite fully. It is a matter requiring certain change of wording. The second State referred to is the State that has hitherto prevailed. and that is the Crown of Great Britain and Ireland. I think the Minister will probably agree with me that that sentence could not be quite stood over. I think it was a very famous logician who once stated that a fallacy that would not deceive a child set down in a simple syllogism would deceive the profoundest scholar when put through the pages of a portentious tone. Here is a sentence the ineffectiveness of which is rather masked by the many parentheses with which it is beset. If you put the parentheses aside you will see that the sentence itself requires further elucidation. I would recommend the Minister to go straight at the second State, and say exactly what he means by the State, the word "State," in the second instance, being hitherto the Crown of Great Britain which is now the Irish Free State. My second criticism is rather more than a matter of wording. When one comes to examine it carefully, it is on the fourth and fifth lines, page 65. The sentence reads:—"Subject to any trusts, grants, leases or concessions then existing in respect thereof, or any valid private interest therein." Those are the words to which I would draw the attention of the Minister—"Or any valid private interest therein." I would venture to say that that is a most dangerous sentence, and that in future law courts will put a construction on that we do not imagine at the present moment, or at least they lend themselves to be put such a construction perhaps, so as to render the entire provision of this Article nugatory. When we say these things shall be "subject to any trusts, grants, leases or concessions then existing in respect thereof" that I think is quite sufficiently expansive, and we need not go further into any other matter quite so dangerously phrased as "any valid private interest." I do urge these words should be eliminated and that the provision, the intention, and the purport of this Article would be greatly strengthened if these words were deleted. My third criticism is this:—it is a question of omission. I think something should be introduced into this Article as it now stands dealing with a matter I dealt with in another one of these paragraphs that I had suggested at an earlier stage, because there is one clear omission, and it is a very important omission, because at the present moment there are certain rights that have been alienated. The Minister stated that the provisions of the Article would frustrate any future alienations, but they do not deal with the major right of this State over alienations which have already been made. Some of these alienations deal with matters of great importance we know, for example, there are many parts of our coast line where the foreshore has been alienated. I know where alienations are being sought for by foreign speculators. Foreign prospectors knowing this country is coming to a period of great development have come in and have seen places where ports of considerable magnitude may be developed, and where they have got leases of the foreshore, the most valuable territory possibly of any country, of a country certainly, that abuts on the sea, with ports and bays and creeks of great importance that they have around the shore of Ireland. I think I should like to see some form of wording suggested and accepted, by which the Irish Free State would claim an ascendant right over all these alienations that have already been made, and even compelling them to be for terms not exceeding ninety-nine years. We know, there is a man in America at the present moment, of the name of "Vanderbilt" who is reputed to be one of the richest men in the world. What made him that, not industry of his own, no but simply because right far back at the beginning of the development of the United States of America, one of the Vanderbilts happened to have a farm in the middle of what is now the City of New York; and because the citizens of the State have made New York what it is, that Vanderbilt is a rich man. If Vanderbilt had made the money himself I for the moment would say that he is entitled to the riches he has made or earned, but when other people have made that value, when other people have increased that value, then I say the State should step in and say this wealth had been created by the Nation at large to which it belongs and should be vested in the Nation at large, so I say, to any speculator—we have many now and we shall have more within the next few years,—I say to any speculator who comes over to Ireland and who sees clearly there is a port going to be developed in this part of the coast and who gets a lease on that part of the foreshore, because I should be inclined to say that some exist at the present moment, I should say that "if on that foreshore a great port is created by the energy of the Irish people the benefit of that will accrue not to you, but to the Irish people." In the third instance, the omission I think that might be provided for very simply by a form of wording. That is the only criticism I have to make on this Article in respect of which I withdraw three of the four amendments I had put forward.

Mr. KEVIN O'HIGGINS

Taking these criticisms in their order, it is admitted that the first sentence reads awkwardly, in view of the frequent repetition of the word "State." It may perhaps read better if, instead of "The Irish Free State" you have there "Saorstát Eireann." It is better to have, I suppose, as a choice a thing that refers to the previous State than to have a direct reference to the Crown, which gets on the nerves on so many of the people in this Dáil while it does not at all get on ours. We would suggest a change there, instead of on the second line, "After the date of the coming into operation of this Constitution," that that date could be made, of course, the Treaty date. The other obvious objection about the purport of the sentence which refers to any valid existing interest or any trusts, leases and concessions, is more weighty. It is an objection of substance, and just as Deputy Figgis's speech was an elaborate euphonism for expropriation which is a rather serious proposition and rather an unwise proposition at the birth of a new State. If we are to go forward in peace and progress and reconstruction we must go forward with the goodwill of all citizens.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

I would like to explain that I think the Minister has misunderstood me. I agree that the the sentence, "subject to any trusts, grants, leases or concessions then existing in respect thereof"; I agreed to that, but what I do not think strengthens it, but rather weakens it, are the other six words, "or any valid private interest therein," the awkwardness being the subsequent interpretation that may be given to the word "valid." That is embodied in the words, "trusts, grants, leases and concessions." That will meet the criticism that he is now making, that I was thinking of expropriation, because that was not in my mind at all.

Mr. KEVIN O'HIGGINS

The objection to those six words will be noted. I could not undertake more at the moment because I think it would be a mistake for us, who have a responsibility for this Bill, to accept amendments hastily and without careful examination of their implications. In the concluding portion the Article forbids alienation and it limits the terms of a lease to ninety-nine years, and provides that it cannot be by its own terms renewable. I think that is as far as we can go, but to suggest that existing leases might be cancelled is, I think, taking a wrong view of the situation. It is not as if we have absolutely won out to the full extent of our programme. By and as a result of negotiations with the British, and not as the result of a smashing defeat, or being driven into the sea, or anything of that kind, the British are leaving this country and we are stepping into their shoes. We have in a great many matters to accept their liabilities here, just as we are bound to their Civil Servants and to their Officials, either to keep them on or to pension them in accordance with the Treaty, so in a great many matters we have to honour their Bonds, treating them as our predecessors and stepping into their shoes. We have to honour their Bond on this question of leases and existing agreements, which is not one that we could or that we ought to deal lightly with. As I say, if we were going forward we have to do so with the confidence and goodwill of all sections of the community.

Mr. GERALD FITZGIBBON

There are few words in addition which I suggest the Minister might accept in the top line, on page 65. The clause at present reads: "And also all Royalties arising within that Territory." There are many existing grants, as everybody knows, from the Crown, which are terminable, grants of Royalties strictly speaking, such as Fairs, Markets, foreshore rights, and franchise and all the rest, which are terminable on the cessation of male heirs. These are all existing Royalties that if they were determined the word "arising" would not apply because they arose long ago. They would fall back to the grantor—the Crown—unless you provided in this Constitution that they shall go back to the Free State. I would suggest to substitute the words "worked or enjoyed"—"also all royalties and franchises arising within that territory, shall, subject to any grants"—and so on—"belong to the Free State." The effect of that would be that if one of these came to an end they would go back, not to the grantor or successor of the grantor, but to the Free State itself, and I think that there can be no objection whatever to these words. Also, in the last line of the fourth clause—"may, in the public interest, from time to time, be granted by way of lease or licence to work under the authority." I think that "to work" or to be "to be worked"—"may be granted by way of lease or licence to be worked or enjoyed under the authority of the Free State." I only throw this out as a suggestion.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

The Minister has accepted the first suggestion.

Mr. KEVIN O'HIGGINS

I have accepted both.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

The next one is, "by way of lease or licence to be worked."

Mr. FITZGIBBON

"Or enjoyed."

CEANN COMHAIRLE

Are the words "or enjoyed" accepted as well?

Mr. KEVIN O'HIGGINS

Yes.

Mr. FITZGIBBON

Yes, because some of these are things that you do enjoy and do not work.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

There is a matter of some importance, and I want, with your permission, to mention just one other matter, which is an elucidation of what I said before.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

By way of mentioning it then, without too much elucidation.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

Certainly It is this, the third point that I had mentioned with regard to the leases and Royalties that had already been granted; I only wished that a form of words, which I am not prepared to give now, would be suggested here by which the Irish Free State asserts its major rights over such Royalties and Franchise, and that they did not derive as they do at the present moment derive from the grantor—which is the English Crown.

The CLERK of the DAIL

read the proposed amended Article as follows:—

To delete Article 12 and to substitute:

"All the lands and waters, mines and minerals, within the territory of Saorstát Eireann hitherto vested in the State, or any department thereof, or held for the public use or benefit, and also all the natural resources of the same territory (including the air and all forms of potential energy), and also all royalties and franchises within that territory shall, from and after the date of the coming into operation of this Constitution, belong to the Irish Free State, subject to any trusts, grants, leases or concessions then existing in respect thereof, or any valid private interest therein, and shall be controlled and administered by the Parliament, in accordance with such regulations and provisions as shall be from time to time approved by legislation, but the same shall not, nor shall any part thereof, be alienated, but may in the public interest be from time to time granted by way of lease or licence to be worked or enjoyed under the authority and subject to the control of the Parliament. Provided that no such lease or licence may be made for a term exceeding ninety-nine years, beginning from the date thereof, and no such lease or licence may be renewable by the terms thereof."

Mr. THOMAS JOHNSON

The Minister suggested his willingness to amend the third line on page 65 as "After the date of the signing of the Treaty."

Mr. O'HIGGINS

I would like to consider that.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

It is strictly more than a verbal amendment.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

I am just a little afraid of the implications of that, and I would not like to give a cast-iron pledge in the matter, but if we find it fairly innocuous we will bring up an amendment to that effect, perhaps before the end of this stage.

Amended Article agreed to.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Amendments 21 and 22 are withdrawn.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

I move Amendment 23 on page 3, line 48, "To delete heading, `Section 11—Legislative Provisions." The amendment is just a formal one. It follows very naturally on our first deletion of a sub-heading. It is to delete this in accordance with the intention to delete them all. Twentyfour, of course, can be taken in the same way. I would like to say about these Irish terms—the frequent occurrence of Irish terms in the English version with the corresponding English terms stated immediately after—that it is suggested that we might fix in both versions of the Constitution, because when it is finally before you it will be in both Irish and English, the following words, Saorstát Eireann for the Free State; Oireachtas for the Parliament; Seanad Eireann for the Senate; and Dáil Eireann. Dáil Eireann is accepted practically as an English word. The British have learned to get round it quite glibly, although when we went over first they called it "Dial Iran." The Irish of the other terms are only to be used in the Irish version, and the English in the English version. With the exception of those four words we will confine the Irish terms to the Irish version. In the final stage of this an agreed motion will be put in to this effect. The Irish version of the Constitution is being carefully revised. I move these two Amendments, 23 and 24.

Mr. BLYTHE

I second the amendments.

Amendments agreed to.

Mr. KEVIN O'HIGGINS

I move Amendment 25—Article 17—To add at the end, "and if any person who is already a Member of either House is elected to be a Member of the other House, he shall forthwith be deemed to have vacated his first seat." Article 17 at present reads: "No person may be at the same time a Member both of the Chamber/Dáil and of the Senate/Seanad Eireann." It is stated that if a Member of the Dáil were a candidate for Seanad and were elected, that at the moment of his election he would, in fact, be a Member of both Houses and that some machinery should be devised for his resigning his seat in the Dáil. We suggest that the amendment here meets that.

PADRAIC O MAILLE

I second the amendment.

Mr. GERALD FITZGIBBON

May I suggest that the Minister would consider giving the Member an option; otherwise it would be quite possible for this Dáil to get rid of a very objectionable Member, such as myself, by getting him nominated to the Seanad. The constituents who sent the man here would, by the action of this Dáil, be deprived of the right of representation, which they have themselves exercised. I suggest that the Minister should reconsider this, and that provide "that he shall be bound to elect within twentyfour hours which House he will sit in."

Mr. WILLIAM O'BRIEN

I think, in view of the statement of Deputy Fitzgibbon, the clause ought to be allowed to stand as it is.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

We do not think that the Dáil will use compulsion in that way and put a man's name on the panel for the Seanad, without his consent. If he consented we would assume he would prefer to be a Member of the Seanad. On the other hand, if a Member of the Seanad stands for election to the Dáil it is assumed he wants to be a Member of the Dáil, and would sooner be a Member of the Dáil than a Member of the Seanad. I think when you look into it you will find it is a fair thing to assume that he prefers to relinquish his first state and that he wants membership of the House he stands for election to, and wants it more than the membership of the House that he is already a Member of.

Mr. GERALD FITZGIBBON

On a point of explanation, I could follow that if it was provided that no Member of the Senate should be nominated for the Senate without his consent.

Mr. GAVAN DUFFY

I think there is a good deal in what the Deputy says. I believe I moved an amendment on the last occasion myself suggesting that a man should have an option. I cannot see any good reason against giving the option.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

I would prefer putting in something to the effect that a man should not be nominated for the Senate without his consent.

Mr. FITZGIBBON

It will arise later on. That will satisfy me.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

I move Amendment 26 (Article 26—Page 5, line 23—To delete headings, "Section 11—Legislative Provisions") and 27 (Page 5, line 24 —to delete heading, "B—The Chamber of Deputies/Dáil Eireann").

Mr. BLYTHE

I second the amendment.

Amendments agreed to.

Mr. K. O'HIGGINS

I move immediately after Article 27 to insert a new Article as follows:—

"Each University in the Irish Free State, which was in existence at the date of the coming into operation of this Constitution, shall be entitled to elect three representatives to the Dáil upon a franchise and in a manner to be prescribed by law."

The amendment arises from a decision here from the Committee Stage, whereby the Dáil approved of the principle of representation for the Universities in the Lower House. To visualise the position Deputies will remember it was a definite agreement with representative Southern Unionists—I use the word rather than representatives of the Southern Unionists—that there should be representation in the Senate for Universities. Then the principle was adopted here that there would be representation in the Dáil and those who pleaded for that, said that for that consideration they were prepared to sacrifice the clauses of the Agreement which referred to University representation in the Senate. Now it is felt that having departed even in detail from the Agreement, that those who departed from it should definitely put up and insert in the Constitution the consideration for that departure, otherwise people would be in the position of having given up a fairly valuable thing—University representation in the Senate—and having nothing definite or binding to show in its place. Now, realising that, and anxious to make it quite clear that we did not simply enter into an agreement with certain people in London and come home and run away from it, but simply giving in place of what we removed from that Agreement, or something considered of more value by the very people it was intended to cater for, I would move this Article. It was thought better to have three there as it will more easily enable Proportional Representation to be carried out.

Mr. BLYTHE

I second the amendment.

Article agreed to.

Mr. K. O'HIGGINS

I move Amendments 29 (Page 6, line 1—"To delete `Section 11—Legisative Provisions.' ") and 30 (Page 6, line 2—"To delete `C. The Senate/Seanad Eireann' ").

Mr. E. BLYTHE

I second the Amendments.

Amendments agreed to.

Mr. K. O'HIGGINS

I move Amendment 31—Page 6, line 10—"To delete `fifty-six' and insert `sixty.' " Amendment 31 refers to Article 31 of the Constitution. The Article as it stands states: "The number of Senators shall be fifty-six. A citizen to be eligible for membership," and so on. I propose to insert instead of "fifty-six""sixty," and that will involve some consequential changes later on. The number of the Senate was considered rather an important point by the people we dealt with on that particular matter. I do not think merely because University representation was withdrawn from the Senate that we ought to make that a lever to reduce the membership. I think we should adhere to the sixty.

Mr. E. BLYTHE

I second the amendment.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

I mentioned this matter before, but what the Minister has now stated with regard to the Members as being involved in a kind of pledge given to these gentlemen puts a different complexion upon it. Nevertheless, I am bound to say now, that we come to this matter, I think the change from forty to sixty, besides making the election of the Senate an exceedingly difficult matter from the point of view of the electorate, also alters the entire character of the Senate. I believe this change of twenty members added to the Senate——

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

The change is from fifty-six to sixty in the amendment.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

I meant to say the difference of twenty members. I suggested it should come down to forty. If you have a large Senate elected over a wide territory and that particular type of person whom the manner of election will choose you get a Senate that would very largely lose its authority, as it would lose that mode of selection that would seem to be preferred. I suppose if it is involved in the pledge given, the matter is too far gone. I think it a very great pity we should have sixty and not be at liberty to put it down to forty, as I think forty would have suited the Senate very much better from everyone's view, including those who wished the number at sixty.

Article read and agreed to.

Mr. T. JOHNSON

Article 32, line 20—After "the" to insert "area of the jurisdiction of the." This follows what is already agreed to. I beg to move the amendment.

Mr. O'CONNELL

I second it.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. K. O'HIGGINS

On page 6, line 55, of Article 34—To delete "fourteen" and insert "fifteen," and in line 59, to delete "fifteenth" and insert "sixteenth." Thirty-three is consequential on the change of the membership of the Senate from fifty-six to sixty. It involves the change of "fourteen" to "fifteen" and "fifteenth" to "sixteenth." While I am on that question I would like to say that a sentence may be added to Article 33, simply providing that the name of no person shall be included in the panel without his consent.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

That is in order to meet the point raised in the other amendment that was passed.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

I think it would be a pity to suggest quite so widely as is now suggested by the Minister. I think it is a wider intention than was meant by Deputy FitzGibbon. What I was going to suggest was a new Article, something like this:—"No person already a Member of the Dáil may be nominated for the Senate without his consent." It would leave it free to nominate for the Senate persons who might not be Members of the Dáil, and who did not happen to be in Ireland at the moment of their election.

Mr. T. JOHNSON

I think the Deputy is thinking of the nomination of "the man in jail," or "the man on the island," and the election of such a person to indicate public opinion in regard to those things. I think it is quite a valuable proposition.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

It might occur.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. KEVIN O'HIGGINS

I beg to move Amendment 33, which reads:—"Article 34—page 6, line 55—to delete `fourteen' and insert `fifteen,' and in line 59, to delete `fifteenth' and insert `sixteenth.' "

Mr. ERNEST BLYTHE

I beg to second the amendment.

Amendment agreed to.
Amendment 34—"Page 7, line 1, to delete Section II.—Legislative Provisions," and Amendment 35—"Page 7, line 2—to delete `D. Legislation.' "
Agreed to.

Mr. KEVIN O'HIGGINS

Amendment 36 reads:—"Article 36, page 7, line 33—To delete word `Budget' and insert word `Estimates.' " It is proposed to delete there the word "Budget" and insert the word "Estimates." The reason for that is not that the word Budget is a term in use in the British Parliament, but simply because Estimates is the more accurate word. I am informed by experts who understand the business that before the end of this financial year there will have to be some financial performances which could not strictly be called a Budget, and would more strictly be called Estimates. On line 37 it is proposed to delete the word "Budget" and insert the words "Financial resolutions." Both of these amendments refer to Article 36. The man who will challenge the accuracy or propriety of these amendments is challenging the Treasury advisers of the Provisional Government.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

I do not know whether that is proposed as an incitement. Being somewhat prone to incitement, I accept the challenge. I think the word "Budget" is very much better and the reason why is that you have all the financial estimates proposed in one solid body with no tag ends hanging about. There is a certain solidity and a certain gathering together of all the Estimates embodied in the word "Budget," and if that is going to be deleted on the proposal of the permanent officers of the Department of Finance, I do not like the augury it suggests. There is one other matter. Article 37 is affected by this amendment. I do not press my liking for the word Budget in preference to the word Estimates to any conclusion, but I take this opportunity of stating it. There is a matter implied in Article 37, which reads: "Money shall not be appropriated by vote, resolution or law, unless the purpose of the appropriation has in the same Session been recommended by a message from the Representative of the Crown acting on the advice of the Executive Council." Since we debated that, this Dáil has done one other thing which I think affects this Article to a certain degree. It decided there shall be certain Ministers directly responsible to this Dáil, who shall not be Ministers of the Executive Council, and these Ministers would be able to come directly to the Dáil and put proposals before it involving the expenditure of money, presumably, and would ask the sanction of this Dáil directly. If this Dáil is precluded from granting these proposals until it has first got the consent of the Executive Council, then you have got there Ministers who are not Ministers, but Ministers of Ministers, camping out and masquerading as Ministers. We ought to consider this very carefully in respect of this Article, because of the commitments we have since undertaken in the Executive Clauses. I think it is questionable now, unless you are going to tie up your directly responsible Ministers.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

I might say an explanatory word. The first reference to Budget refers to estimates before the end of the previous financial year, and the second reference to Budget should be "financial resolutions," because it refers to the proceedings after the commencement of current financial year upon which subsequent legislation is founded. This is done under existing Statute. The Budget, there in each of these references, means two separate performances; one is estimates before the end of the current financial year, and the other refers to the proceedings after the commencement of the current financial year.

Mr. GERALD FITZGIBBON

I am afraid the unfortunate report of the unfortunate Committee over which I had the misfortune to preside, saddled the poor Ministers with this. It is not really their fault. It has been pushed upon them, but the corrections are certainly right, because the word Budget, as the Minister has stated, is used in two entirely different senses, and therefore it is obviously improper to use the same word in the same section with two different meanings. In the first place it must mean estimates of the receipts and expenditure, and why not say so, and in the second place it means the resolution necessary to provide for expenditure and taxation necessary for the coming year. I recommend with all sincerity this amendment to the Dáil.

Amendment 36, and Amendment 37 —"To delete the word `Budget' and insert words `Financial Resolutions' "—agreed to.

Mr. K. O'HIGGINS

I beg to move Amendment No. 38, to delete "fourteen" and insert "twenty-one." This is a kind of compromise between a month and fourteen days.

Mr. E. BLYTHE

I second the Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. K. O'HIGGINS

I beg to move Amendment 39: "To insert between the word `passed,' and the words `shall be deemed' the words `or if not returned within such period of twenty-one days.' "

Mr. E. BLYTHE

I second the amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Amendment 40A withdrawn. Amendments 40B and 41 will be taken up as the first business to-morrow.

The Debate was adjourned at 8.30.

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