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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 19 Oct 1922

Vol. 1 No. 24

CLOSING OF THE COLLEGE OF SCIENCE.

On the motion for the adjournment,

Mr. T. O'CONNELL

Yesterday at question time I asked the Minister for Agriculture to state the reasons for the action taken by the Government with regard to the closing of the College of Science, and also to state the intention of the Government with regard to the future. A long reply was given by the Minister yesterday, which did not quite clear up some of the points I had in mind, and I intended to raise the matter last night on the adjournment, but Deputy Gavan Duffy got in before me. My object in raising it to-night is to give the Minister an opportunity of clearing up some points in this connection which still are doubtful. We were told yesterday that the College of Science was closed for military reasons. I do not wish to go into that. If the military advisers of the Government have said it was necessary to close the College of Science for military reasons, they are the best judges, but to the ordinary lay mind this necessity is not so apparent. It is said that it was necessary for the protection of the Provisional Government that the College should be closed, but to anybody who knows the situation of these buildings, it would seem that there would be equal necessity for the protection of the Government to close the houses upon the opposite side of Merrion Street. It may be said, of course, there is a certain element of danger from the military point of view in allowing four or five hundred students to go into a college—into the grounds— from Merrion Street side, but I am informed that it is possible to have an entrance from Kildare Street, and to shut off the college buildings altogether from the quadrangle of the College of Science. However, that is not the main question, and it would certainly to my mind be more convincing, and I would be more convinced, as to the military necessity, if we had the assurance that this building with its splendidly-equipped laboratories and classrooms was not being used as offices of the Provisional Government. Now, if it was looking for accommodation the Government were, I suggest that accommodation could be got otherwise than by commandeering this splendidly equipped building of the College of Science. They might have gone and commandeered some of the hotels, although they are pretty scarce now, but we have a large number of picture houses that they might have commandeered for this purpose. Now, a statement has been issued on behalf of the students this afternoon, and it is to my mind so important that I will read it in order to give the Minister an opportunity of saying whether it is correct or not. This is an extract from that statement:

"It is learned this afternoon that the Board of Works has prepared plans for the complete internal reconstruction of the College of Science, and that these alterations are being put in hand immediately."

I want to know whether that is true or not. If it is true, it seems to me that in spite of the implication contained in the Minister's statement yesterday, the Government are already prejudging the question of the continuance of the College of Science. If it is not true, I am sure the Minister will be glad of the opportunity of publicly denying the statement. In his statement yesterday, the Minister referred to the reconstruction of the College of Science. I am not quite clear, because I have not been able to gather from the statement exactly what we are to understand by the proposed reconstruction of the College of Science. He says, when it is reconstructed it will be reconstructed in accordance with the merits of the case. I trust he will throw some light upon that matter of the reconstruction of the College. It is alleged that there is a duplication of work, as between the College of Science and the Universities. That may be so, but to my mind it is not a sufficient reason for closing up this institution. If the same kind of work is being carried on in the universities, it is possible that there is room for both, and my information is, that institutions similar to the College of Science are found in most progressive countries. I have been further told—it may not be the case, but in any case the statement has been made —that the students from the National University, especially third and fourth years' pupils, doing their engineering course, have been sent from the Universities to the College of Science, because there are better opportunities in the College of Science than exist in the Universities. Now, there is the question of the rights of the students and the rights of the staff, and I think the students as a whole were taken rather short. Advertisements appeared, I understand, in the Press that the College would open in the ordinary way, and it was only when they had come up to town that they were told they must find accommodation elsewhere, and they have since had a certain amount of knocking about from one building to another and a very great deal of dissatisfaction exists and to my mind with a great deal of justice. What I am concerned with really, is the intention of the Government with regard to the future of this College, and whether it is their intention, when the military necessity has disappeared, to revert to the status-quo. There is a very large volume of opinion, I submit, in this country, anxious that the College of Science should continue as at present, and I think no decision should be taken without very great care and very great consideration to discontinue this institution. I would further be glad if the Minister would say what exactly is the position of the staff of the College—whether their salaries are to be paid; whether it is the intention to get rid of them, or whether they are to carry on their work still in other quarters that have been found for them. I wish to say again, that my object in raising the matter is more to get these things cleared up publicly than otherwise, and I suggest that on the points I have raised that the Minister will clear them up.

Sir JAMES CRAIG

There are two points in the questions raised by Deputy O'Connell. The first is with regard to military necessity; the second, which is of very great importance to the students and to the public generally, is whether the College of Science is going to be discontinued. I remember very distinctly when a grant was given for the foundation of the new College of Science, there was a good deal of jealousy in both the institutions, in both universities, that a State grant which had been given had not been given to the two Universities to enlarge their Science Departments, and which if given would have provided better results. The Secretary of the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction had apparently no difficulty whatever, in getting a promise of a quarter of a million of money for the building of the College of Science, and I am sure it cost three or four times that amount. I am informed that the equipment of the College has cost half a million of money and it will be a very serious matter that such a huge sum of money, having been spent, this equipment is now to be scrapped. Now, one of the reasons given for the foundation of the College was, that there was not proper accommodation in either of the two Universities to teach the subjects that were taught in the College of Science, and I ask, is it possible for the Universities to do now what they were incapable of performing when the College of Science was being built. Another point is this, as to the Professors, who have been accustomed to teach in the College of Science, are they the men who are to teach the same subjects to these students in the University? Or, are the University Professors to be paid extra, if they are asked to do it? The most important point to my mind is the question of the dismantling of these splendid buildings. The College of Science has been doing splendid work and its Professors are men of the highest scientific attainments. It will be a deplorable thing if we are to lose this fine building for the future. I simply tried to enlarge on what Deputy O'Connell has asked so as to give the Minister of Agriculture an opportunity of exactly explaining the situation, because there is tremendous excitement, and tremendous discontent at the present moment amongst the students, and not only amongst their sons, but amongst the parents of the students who have sent the students to the College of Science with the object of getting from that College a highly scientific training. There is great discontent that the students are to be hunted about from one institution to another in order to get their qualifications.

Mr. P. HOGAN

I think it right to say that I have learned from Deputy FitzGibbon, who has handed in a question which I will read, that he was going to raise this to-morrow at question time. I will read the question now:—"Whether it is a fact that operations are in progress in the buildings hitherto occupied by the College of Science which will, if carried out, make it impossible for the College to resume its activities in its former capacity on the termination of the present troubles?" Now, there has been a good deal of excitment, a good deal of artificial excitement, about this. There has been a deal of cry and little wool about the whole thing. Now, I want to make it perfectly clear that the College of Science was not closed because the College of Science buildings adjoined the Government buildings. It was not closed because the Government wanted more offices. It was not closed because there were certain defects in the organisation of the College of Science. I want to have that perfectly clear. The College of Science was closed because our Military advisers advised us that with the information at their disposal they thought it right to tell us that it was absolutely necessary that it should be closed; that it was being used for purposes for which it was never intended. Our Military advisers informed us that they had certain information in regard to the activities that were going on in the College of Science which made it absolutely necessary to close the College of Science if they were to be answerable for the adjoining buildings. That is the clear simple position. We are accustomed to take the advice of our Military advisers, even if it inconveniences people, and we took it on this occasion. I hope now it is perfectly clear why the College of Science was closed. Now, having said that much I would have thought that all this excitement would not be due to the closing of certain buildings—that if there was to be any excitement, or any energy wasted, it would be wasted, or I should say applied rather to the question of finding adequate provision for the students that were going to the College of Science. I think that is the subject that anyone really interested in the question would address themselves to. The students of the College of Science had to take the facts as they found them. We are all inconvenienced by things that are happening at present. I am inconvenienced, I dare say there is not a man here who is not inconvenienced. There is hardly an institution in the country that is not inconvenienced, and what they do like sensible men, is they make the best possible arrangements. And I thought it my duty as responsible for the College of Science, to make the very best arrangements I could, temporary arrangements. I explained here yesterday that Dr. Coffey, the President of the University College, had offered all the facilities of his University to the College of Science. When I learned of that, I instructed the authorities of the College of Science to take advantage of it. I make no excuse for that. I considered the offer of Dr. Coffey very generous, and I considered that practically in every subject all the students of the College of Science can get the same facilities in University College as they could have got in the College of Science. There are one or two exceptions. I do admit that in Practical Engineering there is not the same equipment. We hope to remedy that. If the College of Science is to remain closed for any length of time, we have got to remedy that. And the net result of it will be that they will only be seriously handicapped in one small direction, and that is in Practical Engineering. And I hope with regard to that that we can make some arrangements later on. Now I was asked about the reconstruction of the College of Science. I think we are going too far on this matter. The College of Science was closed for reasons over which none of us had any control. The authorities of the College of Science, and everybody interested in it, are perfectly justified in making quite sure that this accident shall not prejudice the institution. As I said yesterday, this accident shall not be made a reason for effecting a special arrangement. They are quite right in that. On the other hand I wanted to make it perfectly clear that so far as the College of Science does need reconstruction—and in my opinion it does—I am not to be stopped when the time comes, if it is my responsibility, from effecting that reconstruction by any undertaking given in connection with this particular arrangement that is taking place now. I hope I am perfectly clear. I may be right or I may be wrong in saying that there is certain duplication between the Universities and the College of Science, and it is abnormal that there should be one educational institution under the Minister of Agriculture and another under the Minister of Education. But that is outside the point. These are two different questions, and I would not have referred to them except that they have been referred to and canvassed. These are questions that would come up at the proper time and be dealt with at the proper time, I hope after due consideration. Nothing that happens now is going to prejudice that one way or the other. Now, as to when the College of Science will open, I cannot say. I would like to think that it would be very soon, but I certainly cannot say. It will all depend on the military situation and on the advice we get from people competent to give advice on this subject. With regard to the question as to whether we are going to use any of the rooms in the College, if they are suitable for our purpose we certainly will if we require them. There is nothing sacrosanct in the rooms. If we find rooms in the College of Science suitable we will make use of them rather than leave them idle, but we are not going to make any changes in the College of Science which would prejudice its opening when the right time comes. With regard to the staff of the College, I met the staff of the College yesterday, and I discussed the whole question with them, and they agreed themselves that their duty in the matter was to make the best possible arrangement they could for the students, if necessary to send the students to the University College. If rooms can be set aside in University College, Dublin, for the staff that will be done. If there are some of the staff idle as a result of this, that cannot be helped. After all it flows from the original happening— namely, the closing of the College. The arrangements are not yet completed. When the arrangements are completed we will know how the whole matter stands. At this stage I cannot say what the final arrangements with regard to the staff will be. I do not think that any other point has been raised.

Professor THRIFT

I would like to assure the Minister for Agriculture that I had nothing to do with the arranging for this question to be raised here this evening.

Mr. HOGAN

I must say I am rather glad this question was raised. We have nothing to hide in this matter. We are anxious that the public should know exactly how this question stands.

Professor THRIFT

I have no doubt that the Minister was very thankful that it had been raised, and I was also going to add that I was very glad that it had been raised, but I would like the Minister to be good enough to add to the statement which he has just made, if he can. I think he can give certain confirmation of what was said when a deputation of the staff of the College of Science visited him yesterday—when he was good enough to receive them. The Minister has referred to the generous offer of the National University to give what assistance they could in the difficulty which, I may say, very unexpectedly arose, but I think it was inadvertently he omitted to remark that on the same day he had a similar offer communicated, not to himself, because he was away at the time, but through me, on behalf of the authorities of Trinity College, Dublin.

Mr. HOGAN

That is quite true. It was through inadvertence I omitted to mention that.

Professor THRIFT

Inadvertently I am sure, but as one offer was given such publicity, it was necessary for me to draw attention to that offer also, and that offer still holds good. The other point on which I think the Minister for Agriculture agreed yesterday when that deputation was present was that this matter affected what is apparently a very vital point—that is, that members of any educational institution, whether College or University, should have their academic independence, and that what has caused a considerable amount of feeling in this matter may, or may not, have been inevitable in this case to a certain extent, but which was to a certain extent regrettable was that the orders to the students were not communicated to the staff under whom they were immediately placed, but through an external body. Now, when an academic question of that sort is raised it is right that the staff should be satisfied that their academic independence is not in any way being lowered, and the Minister was quite ready and able yesterday to satisfy members of the staff that he was not going to lower their academic independence in any way. The way, however, in which the matter was left—I would like the Minister to confirm this—is that the staff were left to make such arrangements as they could for giving instructions in the best way that could possibly be done by sending students to classes in the Universities, or by themselves teaching the students in the accommodation provided for them, on the one hand by the National University, or on the other by Trinity College. I am not now in the slightest way objecting to anything the Minister said in his opening remarks, with which I am quite in accord, and I would like him to add two things in his supplementary statement. He has already added one of them. I am sure that the omission was due, as he said, to inadvertence.

Mr. THOMAS JOHNSON

I feel that the statement of the Minister for Agriculture is going to create this impression— that he was glad of the opportunity which had arisen by the decision of the Military Authorities that the continued sessions of the College of Science were dangerous, and therefore it ought to be closed. That gave him the opportunity of keeping it closed and dispersing it and utilising the Universities for doing the work which has hitherto been done by the College of Science. Now that may be a right policy or a wrong policy. If it is a right policy it is done very much in the wrong way. I am not asserting that that is his intention. I do not know. I am in doubt. But, certainly, if I were to judge merely by the manner and the matter of his statements yesterday and to-day, I would conclude that that was the intention— to disperse the College of Science and to utilise in the future the two Universities for the work that has been done there in the past. We have something like what may be intended to be an assurance that the statement that was issued on behalf of the students to the effect that the Board of Works had prepared plans for the complete internal reconstruction of the College of Science, and that these alterations are being put in hands immediately, that that statement is not accurate. I am not sure whether the Minister definitely disowned or denied that statement. He said that they were not taking steps which would prejudice the possibility of the College reverting to its old work. I feel that the statement of the Minister is going to leave the impression, unless it is removed by a subsequent statement, that the Ministry has decided upon a change of policy and that they do not desire that the College of Science in its present form should continue its work, but that the students should divide themselves into one or other of the Universities for carrying on this particular scientific work. If that is a misinterpretation, I hope there will be a very much more definite disavowal than has been given to it by the Minister for Agriculture. There is another aspect of this matter I would like to raise, and it is, perhaps, more germane to the complaints. I feel that the Minister for Defence—the Military Authorities—have perhaps acted too drastically in deciding that the only remedy was to close the work of the College. They came to the conclusion, I presume, that work was being carried on there or might be carried on there which would be disastrous to the adjoining buildings and would be a national damage; but the Military mind in general has a habit of saying this thing is in hand, and therefore it must be stopped, going direct to the other extreme. Now, I suggest, inasmuch as the number that are vitally affected by this is comparatively small, the advanced students, I understand, doing the later experimental work, that it might have been possible to have still provided facilities for these particular students by one means or another, to carry on their work in that building, without dispersing the three or four hundred students—which number has been mentioned—of all grades and rank. A smaller number could have been supervised, and some provision might have been made, I think, for the work being carried on without this very drastic decision.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

We have gone beyond the half hour allotted for raising matters on the adjournment. Matters can be raised on the adjournment for half an hour only.

Mr. T.J. O'CONNELL

Is not that after half-past eight?

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

At half-past eight, or presumably when the Orders of the Day have been finished.

Professor MacNEILL

I should like to ask you whether the Orders of the Day would preclude me from making some statements of material facts with regard to the question that has been raised.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

I was just going to suggest that as the half hour has been rather more than concluded, obviously the statement made by Deputy Johnson called for a reply by the Minister.

The Minister's reply would call for a reply from somebody else.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

This has occurred before, and we ruled without question that when the Orders of the Day are finished before 8.30, and the matter is then raised under the rule with regard to adjournment it can be discussed for half an hour.

Mr. E. BLYTHE

You cut me off once in the middle of a sentence.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Yes.

Mr. JOHNSON

I cannot find the Order, because I have not got the amended Orders, but I think the intention of the Standing Order was rather to ensure that any matter on the adjournment should certainly not be carried on beyond nine o'clock, and when the Orders of the Day were finished and the adjournment was moved, the discussion might continue and the half-hour rule would not apply.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

The half-hour rule was complied with before.

Mr. P. HOGAN

Could we agree with the suggestion made, that Deputy Johnson should finish and that the Minister should reply?

Mr. T. JOHNSON

If I had thought that, I would not have intervened at this stage, because I am not very conversant with the facts, and there are other Deputies more conversant with the facts. I thought this debate should have continued until there had been some fuller discussion, because it is of considerable importance and ought not to be stopped in this manner.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

I am as much alive to the importance of this subject, I take it, as any Deputy in the Dáil, but we have Standing Orders which I think we must maintain, and if we agree to this particular breach of them now, it must not be taken as a precedent. The Standing Orders Committee can, of course, meet, draw up a rule on this matter and put it before the Dáil.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

Might I suggest that you should interpret the Standing Orders and adhere to that, pending revision by the Standing Orders Committee?

Mr. T.J. O'CONNELL

The suggestion has been agreed to.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

What we have agreed to is that Deputy Johnson shall conclude, and that the Minister may reply. We cannot go further than what we agreed on.

Mr. T. JOHNSON

There is not much more for me to say, but what I cannot understand,—except on the assumption that the Minister of Agriculture has decided, in his own mind at any rate, that a complete change of policy in regard to the College of Science ought to take place,—I cannot understand why he should have emphasised that he did not want to be precluded from certain changes in the future, that he did not want this particular crisis to prevent him making a change of policy in the future. So far as I am aware nobody suggested anything of that kind until he raised that matter in the answer to a question yesterday, and it seems to suggest that he, at least, has decided that there will be change of policy. I would like to have an assurance, and I am quite sure the people interested would like to have an assurance, that there was no other way out, no other way of meeting the Military situation than by the complete closing of the College of Science. I should like to have an assurance that other methods of meeting the Military situation were fully considered, and that consultations with the people most concerned were made, to consider how best to meet that particular situation. Before doing such a drastic thing as this it seems to me that that was the obvious duty of the Minister concerned. I think we would like to have this assurance that the particular equipment, the particular machinery, that is and has been used in the College of Science, and which is now there, is not going to be dismantled or disturbed, so that we shall have some confidence in saying that until there is a well-thought out and approved new policy, that no new policy of this kind will be decided on the mere fancy of the Minister of Agriculture.

Professor MacNEILL

I suppose it would be vain on my part to presume that my few scattered and incomplete remarks yesterday evening inspired sudden enthusiasm for autonomy on the part of students as against control of the State in matters of this kind. Now, I have heard a number of suggestions put in the form of queries, to the effect that my colleague, the Minister of Agriculture, all this time had some sort of Machiavellian policy up his sleeve with regard to the College of Science. The facts of the case are these: that the Minister of Agriculture, to the great regret of his colleagues, was absent, unwell, for a week at least, I think, before this crisis arose at all, in any shape or form, or was whispered in any shape or form. He was not present, to our great regret, to be consulted when the difficulty arose. He was not consulted when the difficulty arose, and the decision was taken entirely in his absence. Now, with regard to the decision itself—again the atmosphere of suspicion has been raised, and I want to make the facts as plain as possible. I think that the Minister for Agriculture has understated the facts, and I do not feel competent to state fully what the reasons of Military necessity were. I doubt myself whether those reasons were confined to any knowledge of activities or possible activities that might be pursued by anyone among the students, or likely to be among the students, and I doubt very much whether the reasons were confined to that at all. But whatever the reasons were they satisfied the Military Authorities. The Military Authorities made a very complete examination into the facts of the case, and when their advice that the College must be closed came to me, in the first instance, the first thing that I did, at the very earliest possible opportunity, was to approach the Military Authorities and to put before them every possible plan that I could think of, by which the closing of the College should be averted—every precaution that I could think of, or that could be suggested to me by people who were competent to suggest, by which the closing of the College could be averted. I put those considerations fully before the Military Authorities, and the Military Authorities decided that the precautions, and so on, that I suggested to them, did not meet the case, and that it would still be necessary to close the College. Up to that time none of these questions that have been raised with regard to the design of my colleague as to the future of the College had come before anybody. Now, I hope that disposes of this question of ulterior designs.

Mr. T.J. O'CONNELL

On a point of explanation, might I say that I allege and Deputy Johnson has alleged, that the first to raise this question of the future of the College, in this way, was the Minister for Agriculture himself in his answer yesterday.

Professor MacNEILL

That may be so with regard to this assembly, but the question was raised, and, if I am not mistaken, raised publicly outside.

Mr. HOGAN

In answer to the question as to what the future of the College was to be.

Professor MacNEILL

With regard to the future of the College, there is not the slightest reason to suppose that the Government does not desire that the benefits of the College of Science to the public shall be continued, but the Government does not certainly pledge itself that they would be continued in any particular form. They will be continued, we all hope, to the full, in an equal or greater measure than at present. Deputy Sir James Craig pointed out—his own estimate, I think it was—that something like half a million had been spent in the building and equipment of this College of Science, and I think my friend would possibly have liked to complete what he said by saying that very much less than half a million would have enabled the two Universities to make far more magnificent provision for the needs for which the College of Science was intended to provide—very, very much less. I think it is well to be clear that there is no intention on the part of the Government to diminish the benefits of the College of Science to the public. This thing has arisen in a particular way, and if the Minister for Agriculture has replied as stated, that the fact that it has arisen does not preclude the Government from regarding the most complete and beneficial way for utilising and extending the work of the College of Science in the future for the public benefit—if he has said that, it is because the question has been raised outside and inside, and it has been put to the public and is being put to the public, that in some way or other, because this has arisen, the Government should be precluded and placed under some sort of pledge, that it is going to continue this Institution in every shape and every form and every degree exactly as it exists now. The Government will give no such undertaking. With regard to the equipment and machinery, I am asked will the Government undertake that the machinery will not be dismantled or disturbed. The undertaking I will give will be that the facilities which exist will not be diminished so far as the Government can prevent it, but that no changes will be made in any shape or form. For the same reason as I have said, it was necessary for the Minister for Agriculture to safeguard himself, it is necessary for me to safeguard myself. I will not give any undertaking and I am sure that the Government will not give any undertaking, that no such thing as a change in the smallest degree in the equipment of the College will be made. I hope that is perfectly clear. The Government, so far as it can, will maintain the benefits of this College for the students who attend it, and that is all they pledge themselves to do. This College has been the most markedly State institution of such educational institutions in Ireland at the present, and I hope that no one will imagine that, because it has been so, it should now suddenly be transformed into a sort of Soviet. We find here in the reports students actually saying, and the Chairman of the meeting upholding, that the reasons assigned by the Government for this act are not the true reasons. The reasons given by the Government are the true reasons and the only reasons for which the College has been closed. And we also find it suggested that the students should come here and tell us—you, the elected representatives of the people of Ireland— what they thought of it.

Mr. THOMAS JOHNSON

They did not come.

Professor MacNEILL

They did not come, very wisely. Really the students, I think, are the beneficiaries in this matter to a very large degree. This is a College endowed at enormous expense and it is conferring enormous favours on all those who are able to take part in its work. I hope we shall have a more reasonable attitude in future, and I trust that no responsible person here or outside will encourage the students of a college of this kind to take up an attitude such as that which appears to actually menace the action of the representatives of the people; or that they should take upon themselves publicly to say that the reasons which have been given for the closing of the College are not the true reasons.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

The Dáil will meet to-morrow at 3 o'clock.

The Dáil adjourned at 8.5 p.m.

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