The next estimate is the Old Age Pensions. The sum is £3,326,900. This is one of the largest votes, but no substantial reduction is possible, unless by alteration of the law, reducing the amount of the pension or increasing the age limit, and it is not intended by the Dáil to make any alteration in these, but in fact, it is possible that some savings might be affected if investigation was agreed to by the local Pension Officer and the local Committee. I have been, for a number of years, a member of these bodies. I know the charitable view that is taken of these applications when they come along, and I have known cases of persons who had many years to run but who were passed by the Committee—at least one Deputy here can bear me out in that. The rules for the payment of these pensions are well known and there is no necessity to refer to them now. It ought to be remembered now that every case granted is out of the revenue of the country which is sorely needed for what Professor Thrift has wisely called constructive work, and that no claims or demands should or ought to be made on the Exchequer which cannot be morally sanctioned. The procedure at present is that a claim is sent to the local postmaster, and he forwards it to the Pensions Officer. The Officer of Customs and Excise has charge of that duty. He investigates the cases and reports on them to the local Committee who decide. Either of these—that is the applicant or the Pensions Officer—can appeal from the decision of the local Committee. That is if the Pensions Officer is dissatisfied with regard to the granting of a pension to an individual, he can appeal; if on the other hand, the Committee will not allow the pension, the individual applicant can appeal, and that appeal comes before the Local Government Department. The details of appropriations represent recoverable cash payments overpaid to pensioners. I formally move the vote.
ESTIMATES. - OLD AGE PENSIONS.
I would just like to ask if the Minister can explain the decrease of £70,000. Are we to take it from that, that the number of people coming under the pensionable age is declining, or rather, are we to take it that there is stricter supervision, or a hardening of the hearts of either the officials or the appeal court, or the Local Committees? I may say, that I have had brought to my notice, rather more frequently of late than earlier, a number of complaints of applicants having been refused on the grounds of the difficulty of the proof of the year of birth. At least the difficulty is increased. The evidence has passed by one means or another, burnings and such like, and that the only evidence they can rely on is the evidence of the oldest inhabitants, that is, local evidence of reputable people. I would like to know whether there has been any increased stringency in that respect on the part of the Department. Because it is well known to those having experience of the administration of the Pensions Act that in very many cases it is not possible to bring evidence of the Census papers or marriage certificates. And the sins of the young people are very often coming against the same people when they are old, by virtue of the fact that they put themselves down as much younger than they actually were when they were being married. But there is evidence available of a fairly satisfactory kind in a locality where there are reputable people who could give evidence of the ages of the applicants. My information is that there has been a much greater stringency in recent months in regard to accepting the evidence of reputable local people. I would like to know whether that has arisen from any instruction or whether it is just the chance of many circumstances coming together at the same time. I think in practice the local Pensions Officer is the person who decides whether the pension is allowable and the local committees are only able to confirm the Pensions Officer's judgment. If he disagrees with the Pensions Committee, the Pensions Committee has not much weight, and I am told that in many cases the local Pensions Officer may be convinced of the age of the applicant and that the appeal court, whatever department of the Local Government it may be decides the case because of the absence of documentary evidence of a satisfactory kind that the applicant is not entitled to a pension. I would like to know from the Minister, whether there has been any deliberate tightening of the bonds in that respect for the purpose of economy?
No.
I quite agree with Deputy Johnson in what he says as to cases being refused in the absence of documentary evidence. I am speaking from a practical knowledge now, and I do know where the evidence of age cannot be got from the Census, that it is very hard in a great many cases to get a local Pensions Officer to accept the declarations of people who are willing and able to make these declarations. I have known several cases where people certainly, to the knowledge of very respectable inhabitants in the area, were over the age of 70 years, and these people were willing and did make declarations, and yet the Pensions Officer and the court of appeal would not accept these declarations. That is a state of affairs that should be remedied, because, as we all know, that in several districts in the country, neither baptismal certificates nor Census certificates are available. Taking these things into account, I do believe that some system should be arranged whereby deserving people who are 70 years of age and over—some system should be evolved whereby evidence could be produced that would satisfy the Pensions law. I further agree with Deputy Johnston that it is useless for Committees to make recommendations if the Pensions Officer thinks in his judgment that the applicant is not a fit person to get a pension. Now, I say this knowing it as I do. I am not speaking from hearsay or anything else. I know it. I hope some arrangement will be come to whereby those deserving people who are 70 years of age or over will be able to obtain a pension.
I am interested in this matter, not as being responsible in any way for the money, but as being the court of appeal. I have not got much grip of the general part of the machinery that deals with the ordinary Old Age Pensions. There might be cases where the pension was refused to people who were entitled to get it, but I am equally sure that there are as many cases, or perhaps more cases, of people getting it who should not get it, and I think that if one grievance is remedied the other should also be remedied. I have a report here dealing with the part of the scheme that applies to blind persons. Every blind person over 50 years of age who is certified by a doctor to be blind and not capable of performing any work is entitled to the pension as if such person was 70. There are medical certificates required in every such case. Well, the result shows, to my mind, the need for stringency and care, and the need for more stringency and care in this matter, judging by the results of its administration in this country. The twenty-six counties have a population of 3,139,000. The number of blind persons receiving the pension is now 3,282. Scotland has a population of 4,760,000 and the number of blind persons receiving the pension is 1,436. That is, there are more than twice as many persons receiving that pension in the twenty-six counties with a population only two-thirds. The yearly cost of the blind pensions in Ireland is £82,000. The cost in Scotland is £35,000. These pensions were given on medical certificates, and it shows in respect of the blind that there is need for increased stringency rather than increased liberality. I propose that there will be increased stringency. It is an extraordinary thing how the disease of Irregularism manifests itself everywhere. Take the case of County Kerry. There is supposed to be, at the present moment, one person over 50 years of age so reduced in means as to be deserving of the pension and blind, one such person in every 481 of the population. In County Mayo, another Irregular county, the number is one in every 424 of the population, although in the County Monaghan, which I have the honour to represent, it is only one in every 5,104. My opinion, after examining this particular aspect of the matter, and as the person responsible for appeals is, that while there are probably deserving people who are not getting pensions, but who deserve them, and we will try our best to see that they are not wronged, still I believe the need is, if possible, for increased stringency more than anything else.
Now, about these pensions for the blind in Mayo, I know several cases in the county. I have been informed that they are receiving these pensions under the Blind Clause of the Act. It is not the fault of the people who apply for the pensions at all. It is the fault particularly of the doctors. Although I have seen some of these certificates of these doctors, well, if I was the Pension Officer I would not really give the pension. There is nothing definite or specific in the certificate, yet the Pensions Officer, who is also liable, should be condemned in the same manner as the doctors. The Pension Officer passes the candidate for the blind pension even though the person might not be actually blind. Two such cases came under my notice within the last month.
I would like to remind the Dáil that it is not because of any attempt to re-organize these services on a sound basis that the reduction of £70,000 has taken place, but because of the fact that the financial year varies, to an extent, as far as the estimates are concerned, once every four, five or six years, according as a leap year occurs or not. This year instead of estimating for 53 weeks, as was the case last year, we estimate for only 52 weeks. That is really what is responsible for the reduction of £70,000. I would not like it to be understood from that that it was not our intention to investigate, as far as possible, any cases where extravagance or claims which cannot be properly substantiated, or that such payments will be paid in the future, or that they will continue to be paid. I have been informed that in this Service alone something like half-a-million can be saved from persons who could well afford to loose it. In certain houses there are people drawing the Old Age Pension whose income by reason of living in such houses and with people who support them would disentitle them to receive any such moneys. In other words, that in well-to-do families people are drawing those pensions which was certainly never intended when the Act was introduced, and as far as I know, and members of the Dáil know, such people living with well-to-do families were never entitled to draw pensions. A number of these cases of appeal came before me when I was Minister for Local Government, and I must say that, as far as I could see, every Pensions Officer who put forward a case put it forward honestly and carefully, and gave in any case that came before me every possible consideration to the claim of the applicants. That was my experience of, I should say, 70 or 80 per cent. of the Customs and Excise Officers I was dealing with when I was a member of an Old Age Pension Committee. I think that will be borne out. I might say that the greatest number of complaints come from persons on whose behalf claims for pensions were made, and who really had no case. I do not mean to say no case in the matter of evidence, but no real case for a pension by reason of the fact that they had not reached 70 years of age.
I would suggest that the statistics adduced by the Minister for Local Government should not be taken too seriously as proving his case, and I want to save him from an avalanche of denunciation by pointing out that the two counties he mentioned are notoriously inhabited by a much larger proportion of old people than any other counties in the country. Undoubtedly there would be a very large number of old people who physiologically, or by ancestry or breeding, would include a large number of blind people. I think one has to be a little bit careful of these statistics and I would like to examine them much more closely before accepting them.
I forgot to mention one of the type of cases that would be what would be called "generous." It was where a brother was born in March and another brother born in August or September of the same year. I do not think these people and such cases where they occur have any claim.
I know a case in County Mayo where there are two sisters. The younger sister is getting the Old Age Pension for the last three or four years, but it was refused to the elder sister.
Mayo is an extraordinary county.
A case was recently brought to my notice where an applicant applied for an Old Age Pension but at the time had not the evidence to satisfy the Pension Officer. Later she got a baptismal certificate which showed that she was entitled to the pension at the time she originally applied for it. The case was appealed to the Local Government Board, and I believe their answer was they would not further re-open it, with the result that the applicant is over the age but not getting the pension. That is a case I know where there the people are in very poor circumstances.
That is a case where the Deputy might very well forward particulars.
I wish to mention cases that came before my Committee. I think it is a great hardship that certain conditions should apply in such cases. It is where a husband and wife were drawing the pension. The valuation went up to a certain point. While the wife was alive she was entitled to half the income, consequently the husband would be entitled to the other half, and both on that basis were entitled to draw the pension. This poor man's wife died, so he lost his wife, her pension and his own pension as well.
Motion made and question put: "That the Dáil in Committee having considered the Estimates for Old-age Pensions in 1922-23, and having passed a Vote on Account of £2,350,000 for the period to the 6th December, 1922, recommend that the full Estimate of £3,326,900 for the Financial year 1922-23 be adopted in due course by the Oireachtas."
Agreed.