The next one is Science and Arts, which is £180,118. There is one considerable increase in this Estimate under the head of the "National Library," page 6. It appears that an increased grant was necessary, because purchases in recent years had fallen into arrears, and consequently there is an increased sum in the Estimates for this. I formally move this Vote.
ESTIMATES. - SCIENCE AND ARTS.
On this I should like to raise a question, but I should like to know first if I am in order. On page 2 of this Estimate there is the annual grant to schools and classes of Science and Arts and Technical Instruction of £64,000. I wish to know whether I am in order, on this particular item, in drawing attention to the dissatisfaction that exists in the case of a very large number of Technical Committees throughout the country in view of the refusal of the Department to allow the payment of the cost of living bonus to teachers who were appointed under the Irish Language Schemes that were adopted by the various counties. We know there has been a great desire within the last two years for the learning of Irish, and I think it is only right and fair to pay a compliment to the Department for the work it did in helping on the study of the Irish language. There has been a considerable extension this year of these classes, and various County Committees have drawn up schemes making provision for the teaching of Irish, but they find themselves handicapped by the decision of the Department in not allowing the usual cost of living bonus to the teachers appointed to carry on this work. The consequence of this was that the Committees had to alter the provisions they made for the teaching of Irish. When enquiries were made, the reason given by the Department, or by the Minister, was to the effect that these estimates were adopted before the schemes were submitted to the Department. I think that was scarcely a sufficient excuse. I think the Department in its wisdom could have foreseen that there would have been a particular demand for the teaching of Irish, and proper provision should have been made. I would be glad if anything could be done even now to encourage Committees, by the payment of this cost of living bonus, to continue the provision they made. Under this Vote, too, provision is made for the College of Science. I would be glad if the Minister informs us what exactly is the position in regard to that now, or has any change taken place in the position since it was last under discussion at the Dáil, whether in view of the practical closing down of the College any reduction is to be made, or is there likely to be any saving in the Vote in consequence? A statement with regard to the positions of Professors and the Staff generally would be welcome.
There are one or two items in this to which I would like to make reference. I think everybody appreciates the necessity for economy, but there is economy and economy. Sometimes the best economy that any Nation can make is wise expenditure. There are items allowed for here that are, I think, altogether incommensurate for the constructive work that lies before this Nation, or that would be incommensurate for the constructive work that lay before any Nation. It would be invidious to distinguish some for mention and omit others from mention, but I do so, not because I think the cases are more deserving of mention than others, but simply because they come chiefly to my mind, and I imagine they would prove illustrative of the rest. Take the case on Page 6 under the heading of "Geological Survey of Ireland— Salaries, Wages and Allowances." There is an allowance made there for a Professor of Geology at the College of Science. That is a small item, and I do not think the amount of work the Professor does at the College of Science is very great. But, when we come to the practical working staffs, we see that the Senior Geologist receives £520. Last year it was £600, it has been reduced by £80. The Senior Geologist there at the present moment is an exceedingly efficient man. Geological Survey in the immediate future will be a matter of the very greatest importance in this country, and for any person undertaking that kind of work a salary at this figure is altogether incommensurate. I mention this because I believe it would be a very wise thing to revise these items. I imagine the salary carries a bonus; exactly what that bonus is, is not set out here, but it would be pro rata. Whatever it is, here is an item of information that will indicate how important this matter is. The late Senior Geologist who was at the Geological Survey a short time ago was offered a position in England. He was a man of very great skill and a man who understood the geology of this country, which is quite special, and he should have been kept for this country. He was offered a position in connection with quite a minor department of the English Survey, but at a salary that made his salary here appear ridiculous. And, although this was his special work, and he loved his work here, he was nevertheless compelled to leave this country. I think that is a calamity we ought to attempt to avoid by the proper payment of those undertaking very important work for this Nation. After all, what is this country but on a larger scale a business concern, and every business concern sees that its technicians are given adequate payment. The salaries under the heading “National Library,” although that is closed now, and not available, are equally inadequate, and in spite of that fact several of them are cut down. In these departments—I mention everything under the head of this “Science and Art” Vote— everything should be very carefully regarded in order that men of the kind I have referred to should receive proper salaries in future, because they are doing work of very much greater importance than the work done by a good many permanent officials, in spite of the fact that these officials are receiving twice, and, in one case to my definite knowledge, three times as much. I think that is a matter of very great importance. I would like the Minister of Finance to give us some information as to the progress of negotiations, under the Treaty, with regard to the Lane pictures. There have been some negotiations for acquiring those pictures for Ireland, to which country they really belong.
There is one portion of this Vote I must take exception to. It is under the heading of "Schools of Science and Art," and deals with grants for Day Secondary Schools. There is a Vote of £25,000 for these Day Secondary Schools. If this country is going to vote £25,000 to these schools, the least the schools might contribute in return would be to give the games of the country some kind of preference over the games of foreign countries. I believe that in a great many of these schools and colleges Irish games are altogether banned. If that is the case it is a National disgrace that such a thing should happen here in Ireland. For the purpose of bringing this matter before the Dáil I move that this vote be reduced by £100. I think that is the proper way to bring it forward. I am very much in earnest in this matter, because our Irish games deserve all the encouragement we can give them. We ought to encourage and foster them whilst people who should foster them seem to give them the kick and foster the games of other lands.
I desire to second the motion put forward by Deputy Hughes. I have in mind a particular college in Co. Dublin. I headed a deputation there, and I might as well go to a college in Whitechapel and interview three Cockneys for all the satisfaction that was obtained. The colleges in the past looked to the British Government for assistance and the British Government sneered at the mere Irish. We are in power to-day and we are going to put the colleges in their right places with regard to Irish games. During the Treaty debate we pointed out what we could do in Ireland if we got control of Irish education. Now we have control and we do not want the colleges of the future to bring up a race of shoneens. Our games are fit to take their place with any foreign games, and the colleges getting grants from the Irish people must give a proper place to Irish games on their programmes. I am speaking on behalf of the Gaelic Athletic Association one of the oldest and strongest of our National organisations, and the members of it are determined to make themselves felt at the coming elections by discouraging the election of candidates who fail to give proper support to Irish games, and who fail to back us in the action we are taking here in this Dáil to make the colleges give a proper place to our native games.
I think I ought to join in supporting this because in the University College, Dublin, for which I can more particularly speak, we are affected very considerably by the lack of Gaelic spirit in colleges such as that to which the Deputy has just alluded. Everyone knows that the men of the future are shaped in the playing fields; it has been repeated so often as to become a mere truism that one smiles on hearing it repeated. Undoubtedly the influence over character exerted in the games that are played is beyond all question, and the spirit of the shoneen to which allusion is made is propagated largely through certain sports that are regarded as peculiarly the privilege of wealthy classes and belong to a British tradition. If we have a large influx into the colleges of the National University from schools in which this shoneen spirit prevails, it will be very hard, in fact exceedingly hard, to preserve the Gaelic tradition and allow the Gaelic influence to permeate through all the activities of the colleges where this disturbing influence is at work. In connection with Gaelic games in our own Colleges, one of the things in which we are exceedingly hampered at the present time is the want of funds for the promotion of these games and the provision for proper playing fields. In a broad spirit of tolerance we have provided in our limited enclosure space for the cricket club. It is regrettable that there should be a desire in the Schools to play Rugby football with the idea that it is representative of the classes and that in some way it gives social dignity to those who play it. One very peculiar thing in connection with our national games, and one that it is very interesting to know, is that most of the spirit and enthusiasm in our Colleges in devotion to Gaelic games exists amongst the girl students. It is rather a strange reflection upon our Secondary Schools, from which we recruit our students, that so few are really interested in the national pastimes and have so little regard for the promotion of them.
I take exception to one remark made by the last speaker in which he deprecates Rugby football. I have played Rugby football and it did not make me less an Irishman. It is congenial to the Irish temperament, and there is room for Rugby football in this country. I believe in reviving the good old Irish games, and I am strongly in favour of the Government supporting them. I took part in Rugby football in my young days, and I feel it necessary to say what I know about it, and I say it is not the game of any particular class; it is a man's game. With the general sentiment expressed in this debate I am in accord.
I would wish very heartily to support the motion of Deputy Hughes if it did propose to delete or to reduce this grant by such an amount as might ultimately reach any particular College or Colleges which proposed any boycott of Irish games, but I am afraid I cannot support the motion to reduce the Vote by such an amount as would not affect the income of the very Colleges which are doing the mischief. Allusion was made to a School or a particular College in the County Dublin. I think the way to get at it would be to move a reduction of this Vote by such a sum as could ultimately reach such a College in County Dublin or in any other county which persists in boycotting Irish games. I am sorry to learn that the representative of University College, Dublin, finds Secondary Schools in Ireland so deficient in their Gaelic outlook, and I would point out that the Gaelic movement of the past few years would hardly bear out his remarks in that way. Secondary Schools contribute largely to making the Ireland of to-day what it is to-day. I am in sympathy with the object which the mover of the resolution has in view, and with the object which the seconder has in view, but I can only support it if they proposed to reduce this Vote by such an amount as would ultimately reach any College that boycotted Irish games.
May I say that I did not assail all the Secondary Schools? I said the Secondary Schools, meaning certain ones that I had in view. In one particular one in the South the students play nothing but Rugby, and gave us a reason in their peculiar terminology that it was a classy game—though that does not establish that it is so, but it shows the spirit in which they view these things.
There is an item in the estimate which has reference to the foreman's wage of 45/-. I wish to call attention to that.
Perhaps the Deputy would allow this particular motion for a reduction of the vote to be disposed of first and he can have his opportunity later.
Mr. BYRNE
Very well, if I am given the opportunity.
I support the motion proposed by Deputy Hughes, although I think it possible it would be more appropriate on a discussion of the whole of the administration of the Secondary Schools. As this has been proposed, however, I am prepared to support it. This particular grant, I understand, is a grant for the teaching of Science in Secondary Schools. And of course there is a well-known connection between science and football. I do not agree with Deputy Whelehan's point that this particular reduction should be such as would bear hardly on a particular college, but it should be such as, without seriously mitigating against the particular grant for scientific teaching, would register a protest on our part against the action of those colleges which in the past, and as some say at the present, boycott Irish games and prevent their introduction into the school and college.
Ba mhaith liom cupla focal a rádh mar gheall ar an g-ceist seo. Is dóigh liom go mba ceart go mbeadh sprid na nGaedheal ins na coláistí seo agus nach cóir dhóibh aon nídh a dhéanamh 'na coinne sin. Is cóir go d-tuigfheadh lucht na g-coláistí seo an caoi leis na cluichí seo d'imirt. Na coláistí a g-cuirfeadh cluichí Gallda ar siubhal agus cúl ar cluichí Gaedhealacha, ní ceart aon airgead a thabhairt dóibh. Ni h-iad na rudaí as a deintear náisiún. Dá g-caillfí na cluichí seo dá mba ná béadh ann ach leabhar riaghlacha, d'féadfá iad d'aithbheochaint.
I am sorry there is necessity for this discussion here to-day because all Colleges and Universities ought to recognise that by this time it is their bounden duty to do all they can to support Irish games and pastimes. It is not the games that are so important but the spirit they bring along with them. The old days of "Seoninism" are gone, and it is the duty of all those Colleges, and even Universities, to throw themselves wholeheartedly into the movement, to make this country Irish. I saw some days ago that the students from Trinity College thought it was their duty, of all those bodies, to help on the development of Irish ideals in Ireland. It is on those lines that the country will make progress. Every College and School in the country should support Gaelic ideals, and if they would not fall in with the ideals they ought not to get the money of the people.
Ba mhaith liom a rádh ná fuil aon ana-mheas agam ar na cluicí seo agus nach dóigh liom go bhfuil aon bhaint aca le náisiúntact. Ní dóigh liom gur féidir le h-Eirinn bheith saor gan an Ghaedhilg, acht ní bhéadh aon díoghbháil ann do náisiúntacht na h-Eireann dá gcaillfí na cluichí go léir. 'Sé rud a cloisinn daoine áirthe ag tabhairt ar an bpéil ná "leanbh tabhartha.""Níl sí comh maith le Rugby mar cluiche." Níor tháinig an cluiche—an péil—ar an saoghal go dtí le deidheannaighe. Dearfainn nach mbéadh aon chiall le airgead do choimead ós na scoileanna 'na mbíonn Rugby nó a leithéid dá imirt. Dá gcaillfí an Gaodhluinn, níor bhféidir í d'aithbheóchaint. Dá mba rud é na béadh aon cluiche Gaodhlach againn, d'féadfaimís iad do cheapadh. Agus, mar thuigeas an sgeul le fada, na daoine ná fogluimeochaidis an Gaedhluinn, bídis ag déanamh na rinnci Gaodhlach agus ag imirt na cluicí Gaodhlach seo, na' raibh tabhachtach i n-aon chor, i dtreó go mbéadh leith-sgéal aca toisc ná rabhadar ag gabhailt do'n Gaodhluinn.
On this question I would like to express one thought that is in my mind. I do not want to depreciate the importance of encouraging Gaelic games, but I want to say that there is something else besides games required if one wants to generate right through the country and in the minds of the people a distinctive national atmosphere. One knows of domestic architecture—the houses that we build ourselves—and one wonders whether they are being designed as an expression of the Gaelic ideal in houses. We know, as a matter of fact, that science and art classes are engaged in the realm of design and are encouraging Gaelic designs, but I fancy when we come to the designs affecting the daily life, such as clothing and houses of the people, we cannot but believe that we are simply copyists, and that the lessons taught in these classes are taught with a view to capturing the market wherever that market may be; and, inasmuch as the bigger market is England, you are designing clothing to capture that market. That will not apply to domestic architecture; but we are over influenced by the practices, the habits in England in regard to domestic architecture. These are things that affect the mind for six days out of the week, while the games will only affect the minds for one or two days in the week. I want to put in that plea. If we are going to be Gaelic in the common life of the people, we have to think of the day-by-day surroundings —their clothing, their houses, as well as their games.
I would ask the Deputies in this case not to press the amendment. I presume it will be quite possible to do this without reducing the Vote by £100. I am not satisfied it would be advisable here that it should be indicated that you are going to use the big stick on those institutions. I am satisfied that the reduction of this £100 would affect the object in view. I think the idea the Deputies had in mind to bring home to those colleges the necessity of having national games would be adversely affected by a vote of this sort. It is the first opportunity the National Assembly has had of taxing people of this country for education, and, having regard to that fact, I think it would be rather a pity that it could be alleged against this Dáil that the first real act of the Dáil was to reduce the vote on education, and I think that having made the case that has been made, having brought to the notice of the colleges their desire, the members should be content.
I am quite satisfied on the result of the motion I made a short time ago, seeing the general support got from every class and section of this Dáil, but I do say that these colleges and schools should be taught that they must give as good a show to the national game as they give to the foreign game. I only asked for as good a show, and I am expressing the opinion of this Dáil, when I say that they will have to do it, whether they like it or not. I think the Minister for Local Government said that it would be better if people devoted a lot more energy to the learning of the language, and the games would not matter so much, that it would not be too much for people to spend an hour or so learning the native language. Seeing that the opinion of the Dáil is as it is, I have no objection to withdrawing the motion, but I do reserve the right to bring it forward at another time.
Amendment withdrawn.
There was another point raised by Deputy O'Connell with regard to the claims to bonus by a number of teachers. This question of the teaching of Irish had been under consideration of the late Dáil, and through some typist's error the Resolution I introduced, or the decree that I brought forward in the last Dáil, was not considered, and the necessary authority to local bodies to strike a rate for Irish in excess of the amount allowed by statute was not passed. I got the Provisional Government to authorise the passing of a Decree for that purpose. Now, it did not specify Irish, but it specified a sum allowed for technical purposes under the Technical Instruction Act. Unfortunately, the Minister for Agriculture was not approached by the Minister for Education and myself, whose duty, I take it, was to acquaint him with the fact that we had struck this amount, and that it would be necessary for him to strike a like amount. It will only occur for this year. It is the only contribution we ask from teachers, and if the teachers would agree to make that contribution to the extent of the bonus for this year, I think they would not regret it. It is one of those things which occur owing to the circumstances of the times. It was certainly an innovation and an advantage to get the local authorities to strike that rate and to get an equivalent amount from the taxpayer, but the other thing for some reason was forgotten. It will occur only for this year.
I wonder, in view of the President's explanation as to how this arose, if it is passed whether he would give an assurance that the teachers would be recouped for anything they may have expended.
No; I am afraid they will not be recouped.
I think it would be more equitable if that could be done, than that those Gaelic teachers—they are not ordinary teachers—should be asked to bear the whole burden of this. I think, in view of what has happened, that assurance ought to be given that it should be considered. They should not be asked to bear more than their share.
I think it right to say if we did not move quite considerable sums of money would not be put in circulation at all.
I quite agree.