This Estimate amounts to £320,110. There are contributions in respect of this from the Dublin Corporation and the Dublin County Council. Certainly in my earlier years as a member of the Corporation, it was my impression that that body were paid more than the cost of the service of this particular vote. That is not the case now. The Dublin ratepayers pay a good deal of the cost, 8d. in the £, but I think that the relative disadvantages are really with the Government. I move that the Estimate of £320,110 be passed.
DAIL IN COMMITTEE. - DUBLIN METROPOLITAN POLICE.
There are one or two questions, which I would like the Minister to answer arising out of this. One of them perhaps as much concerns another estimate which will be put before us later on, namely the Criminal Investigation Department. Some of us are not at all clear to what extent the old duties of the D.M.P. are to be carried out by the D.M.P. under the present regime. There are, I think, some of the activities that used to be carried out by the old D.M.P. being at present carried out by the C.I.D. We would like to have, if possible, a definition of the respective spheres of the two forces. There is another question, and that arises out of a clause in the Treaty and in the 1920 Act. That question concerns the resignation and the right of the members of the D.M.P. to resign under this clause. I should like the Ministry to tell us how many applications, if any, have been made by the members of the D.M.P., whether any of these applications have been granted or whether they are likely to be granted?
The division of functions between the Dublin Metropolitan Police and the Criminal Investigation Department may be roughly defined as that the functions of the Dublin Metropolitan Police are preventive and the functions of the other institution are detective. The D.M.P. as you know are an absolutely unarmed force, and crime has armed itself to a very considerable extent within recent years. There is at the moment a good deal of armed crime in the Capital and in the suburbs. It should be obvious that some institution other than the D.M.P. had to be forged to meet that situation. For some months the C.I.D. was run as a semi-military institution, but within the past three or four months it has passed to the supervision of the Ministry of Home Affairs. If there is overlapping, it only appears in one division of the D.M.P., and that is what was known as the G. Division. There will have to be a certain amount of re-organization, a certain amount of co-ordination between these various institutions and departments, but I think that few will deny that there is a definite place and scope at the moment at any rate in the City and suburbs for an institution such as that at Oriel House. As to the numbers, I could not give without notice the numbers of members of the D.M.P. who have sent in notices of resignation because of the change of Government. I have been told that that was done largely to safeguard their own positions and I think that a great many such notices have been sent in, that will not in fact be carried out, or acted upon. The police themselves had some doubt as to whether that Force would not be entirely abolished and demobilised. They had the idea that it was a decaying force, because certain promotions had not been made, and because it was below strength and recruiting had not gone on. Now the explanation of that was that the late British Under-Secretary in Ireland—I think Mr. Cope was Under-Secretary—some time towards the end of last year—I think about October—realising that a change of Government was imminent and that they were passing out, closed down further recruiting and further promotions in the Police Force. That was a very proper line for him to take at the time, as representative of a Government that was passing out. He did not wish to do anything that would prejudice the situation for the first native Administration. The first indication I got that there was any feeling that the D.M.P. would be abolished, or demobilised, came from within that force itself. I never heard any such rumour or suggestion in Provisional Government circles, and I can state very definitely, so far as my own personal view goes, that there is no such intention, and I think that the police realise that, when normal recruiting and normal promotion starts, a good many will withdraw these notices that they have served of their intention to resign under Article 10 of the Treaty. I have no very definite grounds for that statement. It is merely an expression of opinion. On the question of the demobilisation of that force, it is, I believe, a popular force. It did not share to any considerable extent the odium that the R.I.C. incurred in the particular duties which were assigned to them by the British Government in this country. What I think the citizens would most like, and what they are most inclined to demand, is simply fuller, more efficient, and more alert service from that particular force, but I have not come up against any general demands for its disappearance. I do not know whether there is any different view here amongst the Deputies, but that is my impression.
Of course, I did not suggest the demobilisation of the D.M.P., or anything like that.
Mr. O'HIGGINS
No; but, as a matter of personal explanation, I was glad to have the opportunity of making that statement.
When I raised the question of the resignation I understood there were some who are genuinely desirous of changing their jobs, so to speak, and who do not wish to remain any longer in any police force at all, for private, and not for any other reasons. May I take it that the "G" Division—the Detective Division—of the D.M.P. is no longer a detective division, and that its duties are being carried out by the C.I.D.? I have no intention of arguing against the necessity of an armed detective force in Dublin under the present circumstances. Quite the contrary. I recognise perfectly clearly that there are many criminal things being done in Dublin which require and can only be dealt with by a force such as the C.I.D. I was, on this Estimate at all events, rather more concerned with the position so that the whole position of the D.M.P. might be made clear to the citizens. I think the citizens will welcome it if the D.M.P. are to be an efficient civil police force. The old "G" Division, I dare say, for a good while past has not been carrying out political activities they used to carry out. I hope there will not be any such division attached to any police force in Ireland. I am not quite clear even yet whether all the detectives are trained merely for preventive detection, or whether the detective functions of the D.M.P. are to be carried out by the C.I.D. There is just another matter in connection with the D.M.P. I want to refer to briefly—that is, that the respect which every citizen of Dublin would like to see the D.M.P. worthy of, should not be forfeited by the higher official staff of the D.M.P. I should like an assurance as to what I may call the higher officialdom of the force—the old officialdom of which I have complained very seriously here on a certain occasion before in the case of Constable Hogan. I should like an assurance that the Ministry will see to it that, so far as it is in their power, this higher officialdom will not run amok, as one of its officers did some time ago, in so far as the working of the ordinary common law is concerned.
Perhaps the Minister will also say whether there is anything in the nature of an Annual Report issued by the Chief Commissioner of the D.M.P. as to the state of the city, and the activities of the police, such as is done by Head Constables in other large cities, and incidentally whether we could be informed as to what the experience of the D.M.P. has been in regard to the activities of the Women Police Force. There have been comments in police reports in other cities on this question. Some Head Constables advocated their extension, and some were not favourable to the establishment of women police. I think it would be well if we could have some information on that point, as to what are the views of the heads of the police force, or the Minister responsible for it, on that question.
Mr. O'HIGGINS
Dealing first with Deputy O'Shannon's question as to whether the "G" Division exists and functions: at the moment it does exist, and is dealing with ordinary petty crime, that is more or less incidental to the life of any city—petty larcencies, inspection of pawnbroking establishments and so on. It is not grappling, or attempting to grapple, with the more serious crime that is prevailing in the city at the moment. As to the possibility of the higher officialdom of that particular force running amok and breaking common law, I do not think there is any grave or imminent danger of anything of that kind occurring. Certainly I have perceived no disposition on the part of the higher officials of that force to do anything of the kind. I do not know whether the Chief Commissioner of the D.M.P. has issued for public perusal any such report as that which Deputy Johnson speaks of. I get from the police a daily report of occurrences, and so on; and I think if any such thing as a general report for a period were published that it would not be light literature or very cheerful reading for the general public, at the moment at any rate. The advisability of such a report in the future is a question to consider. I think that yearly or half-yearly reports by the heads of the Metropolitan Police Force would be a good thing, on the whole. On the question of Women Police, our functions were administrative up to the present. It will be for the first Government of the Free State to consider the advisability of new departments, or any far-reaching developments, such as the establishment of an auxiliary or collateral force of women. That has not existed in this country up to the present, and it will be a matter for consideration as to whether it ought to exist.
There are six women police accounted for in this Estimate.
Mr. O'HIGGINS
Well, these are not police in the regular sense of the word; they have no power of arrest, for instance. They are a kind of patrols, semi-official patrols, for the protection of women in the city. I wonder if Deputy Johnson wants to provoke an expression of opinion from me as to whether there ought not to be women police, because I have not given the question any serious consideration. I understand in a general way that the predominant feeling in places where that particular experiment was made was against it, but I would undertake to look more deeply into the matter.
My desire is that we should know the view of the Chief Commissioner in the first instance. I take it formally that the Minister is spokesman here for the Chief Commissioner; but I would urge that he should favourably consider the desirability of such a periodical report as I have hinted at coming from the heads of the Police, because if we are going to consider the police as a function of the society in which we are taking part it is well that the whole society would understand something of the work of that force, and it is a very desirable thing, I submit, that the operations of a police force, not merely its tracking down and prosecution of criminals, but its preventative work, and its work in helping the community, should be emphasised; that as a matter of fact, we should rather come to the conclusion that a police force is a force which is helping the community, rather than being the enemy of the community, or only looking for criminals. The association in the public mind with the police force, through reports of the kind I am speaking of, would be valuable in that respect, and we would then, perhaps, get from the Chief Commissioner his views as to the wisdom or unwisdom of increasing the number of women police or women patrols, their functions and their powers, and generally understand what we are paying them for, why we are paying them, and whether we get value for the money.
Motion made and question put: "That the Dáil in Committee having considered the Estimates for the Dublin Metropolitan Police in 1922-23, and having passed a Vote on Account of £220,000, for the period to the 6th December, 1922, recommend that the full Estimate of £320,111 for the Financial Year 1922-23, be adopted in due course by the Oireachtas."
Agreed to.