The estimates here amount to £510,176. I move that Estimate. There is a difference between this and the other Vote—that is, the Office of Public Works. The Office of Public Works dealt with loans for local authorities and to farmers, and this deals with the institution known as the Board of Works. The particular activities of this Department have, I think, been very much swelled by the recent setting up of the new Government, and by doing certain works for the Government, the Army, and other Departments.
DAIL IN COMMITTEE. ESTIMATES. - PUBLIC WORKS.
I would like to ask the Minister a question in reference to the amount for quays, piers and harbour improvements (Grant-in-Aid). There was a decrease, it will be observed, of £12,030, yet we had an assurance from the Minister for Agriculture that those harbours round about the South and South-East Coast of Ireland were in a very bad way.
The Deputy, I think, will remember seeing a picture of the destruction of one of those piers down in the South on the coast of Cork.
On a point of explanation there is one pier I am looking at for the last 20 years the walls of which began to fall after they were built by the Board of Works.
I hope you are not suggesting that I should accept responsibility for what was done by the Board of Works 20 years ago.
No, but I hope you will start improving on them now. There is another point in reference to item (G) on page 1, Military and Civic Guard Buildings, £250,000. I understand some of the contracts for these have not been advertised. If that is so I hope the Minister will see to it and put the matter in order.
One such case that is the cause of complaint has come before me. It is at present under consideration. I have not heard of any other case. I would be glad to get par-particulars of complaints, if any, of this sort. The Ministry of Finance would welcome any information that would tend to improve the service. Many complaints have been made. I have investigated some. So far I have not been so successful in finding out who is at fault. If there are cases where there is not satisfaction the officers of the Department would welcome an investigation so that they would not lie under any want of public confidence.
I would like to know if it is a fact that certain articles of furniture and other things for barracks and other places are procured outside Ireland which could be procured in this country? It has been stated throughout the country that such is the case. And if that is so I think the amount of unemployment that we have at present in the country could be reduced if the Minister would instruct whoever is responsible in this Board of Works to see that whatever is required in the way of furniture and equipment should be procured in Ireland, and of Irish manufacture.
I heard a good many complaints of that sort, and it is quite possible that the Provisional Government may be somewhat to blame in that connection. When the Provisional Government was established we had to set up an office immediately. Some furniture had to be acquired in one day. We could have got on if we had got the loan of any furniture from somebody, but that was out of the question. Later on when the Provisional Government Buildings had to be fixed up with furniture I am perfectly satisfied that some of it was not made in Ireland. But we are taking steps now to get stores of such articles as will be required in the public service made in Ireland and stored so that it would be available at short notice. It is quite possible that where articles are required for delivery at short notice it would be necessary to get them of non-Irish manufacture, such as was explained yesterday by the Minister for Defence. But that as well as contracts and other things has been gradually overhauled. We have set up a Committee to deal with contracts and other things like that. A statement was made 12 or 18 months ago by the Local Government Department and it is spreading out, so that some attention will be given to industrial concerns which at particular times of the year would not have sufficient work to keep on their staffs, and during those periods it would be possible to put up goods that would be required by the Government. We will certainly give every facility to allow that to be done.
I should say that it was not emergency work that was in my mind. It was general work and it was not in connection with the furniture of the Government Offices here.
There is a Standing Order that 10 per cent. can be paid in excess of the foreign manufactured goods for articles of home manufacture, and with the consent of the Ministry of Finance as much as 20 per cent. extra may be allowed, but it is obvious if we do not allow some sort of competition that the country would be faced with a much heavier bill in this particular direction.
I wish to call attention to another matter. Some years ago the Commissioners of Public Works were all eminent engineers. I understand now that there is only one engineer amongst the Commissioners of Works, and I think it is a Board on which men such as those who were on it some time ago should be. If there are future appointments I think some eminent engineers should be put on it instead of having some legal men or clerical workers in such a position. I hope that when an engineer is being appointed he will be a man who will give more satisfaction than the present Commissioners.
There are two questions I would like to draw attention to. I see an item on Page 6, Ministry of Health, 1921-22, £460, and there is nothing for 1922-23. I am curious to know to which Department, if any, the work of that Ministry has been transferred. And whether there has been any consideration given to the importance of establishing a separate Ministry of Health. On Page 7 we read an item on the lower part of that page: (G) Maintenance Repairs of Military and Civic Guard Barracks and of Ex-Coastguard Stations, £250,000 for 1922-23, and for 1921-22 it is nil. I would like an explanation as to the omission of any charge of that kind for 1921-22. It is obvious that there must have been considerable expenditure under that head and presumably it must appear somewhere. I am just asking how you explain it. Is the £250,000 on this Vote entirely new work on barracks that have been erected, or new accommodation for military forces since the Provisional Government came into power? Or, if not, where is the item against this head for the previous period here?
I should like to add one or two questions to those asked by Deputy Johnson. I see an item down for £600,000 for rebuilding the G.P.O. I daresay the Postmaster-General when we come to his estimates may have something to say on that. I just want to ask if it is proposed to do anything in that direction this year. I mean within the current financial year. There are one or two others that I am interested in. There is the Civil Service Commission, £355. I raise it on this because it is, I think, the only place on the Estimate so far on which it could be raised. What exactly is the position of the Civil Service Commission? I had occasion, on account of some questions of transfers from the North-east to be interviewed by some people up there, and they tell me that there has been a great deal of difficulty and a certain uncertainty about the position of a good many people who used to come under the Civil Service Commissioners for the whole country. I would like to know what the present position of the Civil Service Commission is. Another is the Chief Secretary's office and the branches, and I presume that relates to the Chief Secretary's office. But how exactly does it come in now? Because the building may be there all right, but for what purpose is the building being used? If it is not being used for the purpose of what was the Chief Secretary's office, why should it appear here as the Chief Secretary's office? I do not know whether it was due to the fact that these Estimates perhaps were made out very early, but I notice that the High Court of Justice and the Four Courts are included on a lesser estimate than last year—not so very much less when one would have considered that there are no Four Courts there now at all. There is another item which I am sorry to see is not a great deal bigger. It deals with the preservation of ancient monuments, and the amount mentioned for last year and this year is £928. Possibly the Minister will immediately tell me it is much more important to preserve the State at the moment than to look after ancient monuments, although the State itself may be a bit of an ancient monument. I would ask if there is likely to be any extension of that grant? There are one or two Deputies in the Dáil who ought to be even more interested in this matter than I am.
In connection with the Post Office, I see you are spending £10,000 on the site. I presume that is the old General Post Office in O'Connell Street. Having regard to the fact that this place was blown down by the British, would it not be a good idea if the Minister for Finance got the full amount of £600,000 and built up the place?
It would be a very good idea.
I would like the Minister to impress upon the Public Works and Local Government Departments the necessity for encouraging the tile-making industry in Ireland. It is not quite enough to say that Irish material will get the preference. That is only a kind of pious wish. It reminds one of the Poor Law Guardians when they required doctors some time ago. They inserted advertisements pointing out, amongst other things, that knowledge of Irish would be necessary. The appointment of the doctors came along, and all that the knowledge of Irish consisted of was the ability to be able to say, "Cunas tá tu," or "Tur dom pog."
Who did they say "Tur dom pog" to?
It would be well if the Ministry informed us what is their policy with regard to Irish manufactures. Is this unnecessary export of labour or money to be continued for ever, or is there to be any encouragement given to Irish labour and Irish industry? The 10 per cent. extra mentioned ought to be quite sufficient to cover any excessive charges the capitalists or the Labour party may require in Ireland. A little Ministerial attention to this matter would in a very material way help at the present moment both in regard to employees and employers. It would be well to have the tile-making industry encouraged even in a very small way.
Mr. DOYLE
While on this particular Estimate I would like to draw the attention of the Minister to the fact that in some districts there are disused coastguard stations that are being wantonly destroyed and looted every day, timber being taken away, all for want of a caretaker. Another way out would be if the houses in some localities were let at rents prevailing in these localities. The buildings would be thus preserved; whereas if they are allowed to remain in the condition they are in now, without any caretaker, you will have no house whatever in the course of a year or two. The Minister should draw the attention of the Board of Works to this matter and let them appoint caretakers, or else let the houses to people who are badly in need of housing accommodation.
I think the Minister for Finance might answer what I would like to put now as a definite question. There are set out here items of £4,620 for the High Court of Justice, £2,920 for maintenance and supplies, and £1,000 for fittings, furniture, and utensils. I do not imagine they would require such a huge amount for fittings, furniture, and utensils, considering the condition in which the Four Courts are. Surely there is something wrong about that Estimate.
As regards the barracks, as far as I understand these sums would have been included by the British under Army Estimates, and they are put down now under the Board of Works. It was rather a surprise to me to learn that was the system that was being adopted first. They are called on to do that work, and they simply do it. A good many barracks have been destroyed, some have been injured, and a good deal of repair work has been done. I do not know exactly to what extent is the proportion already expended out of that £250,000. With regard to the ancient monuments, one monument has been brought under my notice, and it would be very advisable for the Board of Works to take it up. I believe, however, it would be very expensive. The main question, when we are making up the Estimates, is whether any money will be available for such work in the future. The monument I refer to is the finest specimen of its kind almost in any country. It would be desirable to restore it, but, in view of the enormous expense we are at and the high amount we have to meet in damage and so on, I do not know that it will be possible to extend that Vote, although it is the very small sum of £930. With regard to the High Court of Justice, Four Courts, I cannot say whether that sum is to deal with the clearing away of the Four Courts or with the necessary fittings that had to be put up in the King's Inns or in the Castle in order to allow the Courts to go on. I take it it was work of that sort.
I do not know the method of accountancy, but the Minister is familiar with it. Would it be possible that this Estimate for the Four Courts was an Estimate made out prior to its destruction?
Oh, no. With regard to the G.P.O., a sum is mentioned of £600,000, but it is not intended to rebuild. I was informed early in the year of the views of Labour members, or of those who represent organised labour, and they were against building any public institutions until, at least, some fair contribution was made towards housing the working classes. I believe the Corporation of Dublin is, at present, in a position to employ all the skilled labourers there are in the city at that work. There are members of the Corporation here and they can bear me out in that. That was my information the last time I was considering the matter with the Corporation and the Local Government Department. I think it would be a mistake to attempt to restore these great public buildings while the people are housed as badly as they are. With regard to this other establishment—the late Chief Secretary's Office—it would mean the usual upkeep of the office which came over to us. Every single institution in the country—practically all the civil institutions—are under the control of the Board of Works, even though the particular services in question were not transferred. The Board of Works itself has to estimate, and that is the Estimate for it.
I wish just to ask about the Bagenalstown Post Office. Has that office been completed yet, or is it intended to transfer from the old office into this new office? Has that been started already? I intended to go over and make enquiries as to the position, but I have not been in a position to go over. I would like to know if the Minister for Finance or the Postmaster-General has any information as to the progress that has been made.
I cannot answer that question. We provide the money. If the Deputy would take up the matter with me I will let him know how the matter stands. He is more in touch with that place than I am. I have not been at Bagenalstown since I attended a meeting there, and there were more supporters of the Deputy at that meeting I think than there were of my own.
It is a good while since I was there last, but I intend to visit it shortly. Then there is this other matter, about these ancient monuments. I think there ought to be provision made to hand these over to local councils or local committees, instead of having them in the hands of the Board of Works, as at present.
No, no.
I think the more conservative in these cases the control is the better.
There are other cases in which these monuments are under private control—that is, under the control of private individuals. And considering that these are, more or less, an asset to the nation, or, at any rate, a remembrance of the past, would the Minister take into consideration the transfer of control from these private individuals and get them into the custody of the local committees?
I explained that the amount of money is small—that is in the Estimate. I wish it were one thousand times bigger. There would be a reasonable expenditure in half a million in that direction, but it is one of the things we are faced with that we have to distribute fairly evenly over all the items. If, when the Estimates are being considered next year, it is possible to insert a larger amount for that service, I will try and do so.
Motion made and question put: "That the Dáil in Committee, having considered the Estimates for Public Works and Buildings in 1922/23, and, having passed a Vote on Account of £250,000 for the period to the 6th December, 1922, recommend that the full Estimate of £510,176 for the Financial Year 1922/23, be adopted in due course by the Oireachtas."
Agreed.