The first of the Estimates is No. 19. The amount is £3,863,921. I move it.
DAIL IN COMMITTEE ON ESTIMATES FOR PUBLIC SERVICES. - PUBLIC EDUCATION.
I think there is nothing so well illustrates the abnormal condition in which this country is in at the present time than that we should be called upon to pass Estimates for Public Education which are not more than half that which is spent on the Army. It is rather strange also, and it illustrates the peculiar position which education occupies in this country, that the provision for education in various forms is made under, I think, four separate Votes. With regard to the administration generally, I quite recognise that, as the Minister for Agriculture said of his own Department a few days ago, all they could do up to the present, in any case since they took over from the British Authorities, was to carry on. And I think it is only fair to say that they have carried on in the circumstances, in my opinion, extremely well. They brought a new spirit into the administration. I think the Ministry as a whole and its Chief Executive Officers are deserving of congratulation on that account. Because they have recognised that successful administration depends very largely on the creation of a spirit of confidence and a spirit of co-operation between those who are carrying on the work and the administration; and, as I say, I am happy to be in a position to congratulate them that as far as it is possible to do it they are doing that. Now it would take a very long time indeed to draw attention to the many things that one would wish to raise on this Vote. I quite recognise that many of the points that might be raised would rather refer to what we would like to see done in the future by way of legislation. I must confine myself, therefore, to what I might call a few of the most pressing and urgent matters that might, in my opinion at least, be dealt with by the present administration. In the first place I would like to draw their special attention to the question which has been very much neglected—the proper maintenance and equipment of the schoolrooms and school buildings. No provision, or practically little provision, has been made in the past, and very little, if any, has been made in the present Estimate in order to meet this very great necessity. We know that very many school buildings through the country—I am speaking now especially of the rural parts of the country, because comparatively speaking the buildings in the towns and cities are very much better—but in the country we know that there are hundreds of these school buildings which are not at all suitable for the purpose of schoolrooms, and from their actual construction, their plans, and especially the sanitation, or rather the want of sanitation, they are in many cases sources of danger to the health of the children who attend them and who have to spend a very great portion of their daily lives there. No proper provision has been made for the heating of those rooms. It is left in many cases very largely to chance. A certain amount is voted from the State. It would average, on the whole, I think, something less than £3 per school all over Ireland. That is a totally inadequate sum. The school managers have to provide an equal sum before this amount is voted, or can be given to them. The total sum is altogether inadequate to meet the purpose for which it is intended. The result is that many of our schools are very badly heated during the winter months. Now, as to the maintenance, we know that unless a school manager can provide through voluntary effort in his parish, subscriptions to meet the ordinary running repairs, and the ordinary wear and tear and upkeep of the schoolrooms, there are no repairs done. I think it is an unfair burden to put on the school managers to expect that they will raise the sums necessary through voluntary effort. I think it is admitted pretty generally that the system has broken down. Then, as to cleaning, the daily cleaning especially, there is a practice in very many parts of the country districts —and it ought to be stopped at the earliest possible moment—that is the practice of having the schoolrooms and the classrooms swept out in the evening by the children. They are expected to remain in after school is over, when they are hungry and tired after their day, to sweep out the schoolrooms, and in hundreds of our schools this is the only provision that is made for the sweeping of the schools. Now, that is a question I would like to see the Ministry take up at once, and they are, I believe, in a position to deal with it—not, perhaps, without legislation could they deal with it to the extent we would wish, but still they could remedy it to some extent. There is a matter which would be perhaps hardly pertinent in this Vote, but it is a pity that some attempt was not made to make a grant in this direction, a grant for the provision in necessitous areas for books for school children. We know that in many areas on the western seaboard especially, the parents of the children are totally unable to provide the sums necessary for the purchase of school books, and they either have to go without them or they have to be supplied with them sometimes by the teacher and sometimes by the manager. Anyone who knows anything about school work knows that no successful work can be done under conditions of that kind. There is another point; it will probably be new to many Deputies here to know—this was mentioned, I think, during an earlier discussion by Deputy Professor Magennis—that many teachers are dependent for their position on the average number who attend the school, and assistant teachers are very often thrown out of their position through circumstances over which they have no control whatsoever. There may be a bad spell of weather; there may be circumstances such as we have at present in the country, or other various causes; there may be a movement or a shifting of the population of the district, and the result of it is that the average goes below a certain figure and the assistant has to go. It does not matter how efficient that assistant teacher may be; it does not matter what his experience is or what his age may be. He is thrown absolutely on the road, and has to seek another position in competition with people who have come into the service later, and people who are leaving the training colleges. I think that is a very great defect indeed, a very great grievance indeed, and I would strongly urge that some arrangement ought to be made whereby, if the attendance in a certain school goes below the figure which would warrant the continuance of the teacher, that teacher should be continued in the service and should have the first preference to a vacancy in another school or another district, just as is done in other branches of the public service. I am sorry that another year has practically gone by and that the Ministry has not tackled the question, which has so often been put before them, of making provision for the better training of teachers. We have repeatedly asked that teachers should have the benefit of University training. We have universities, excellent universities, in this country. The people pay for these through rates, in some cases, and through the ordinary taxes, but the vast majority of the people do not derive any direct benefit, cannot derive any direct benefit, and the only way, the best way, that the ordinary person in the country can get the benefit of the universities is indirectly through the teachers. We think that every teacher ought to have the benefit of a University course of training, and, as I say, I regret that the question has not been tackled more seriously, and I hope that it will not be long until it is tackled. There is another matter which I would recommend for the consideration of the Ministry, and it is a matter, I think, that they have in their own hands very largely. I believe it is a matter on which economy and efficiency can be secured, and that is the amalgamation of a very large number of the small schools, which are all through the country. It is an exceedingly anomalous thing, to my mind, to see side by side, dotted all over the country, separate boys' schools and girls' schools run as separate institutions, and I could name several little towns of small population where there are two or three, or even four, little schools. I think the Ministry ought to take their courage in their hands and go in for a wholesale scheme of amalgamation on sound lines. These schools would be more efficient and would be worked more economically if they were amalgamated into central schools. I said at the beginning that, generally speaking, the present administration was carrying on to the best of its ability, but there is just one matter I would like to draw their attention to, and that is the many complaints that have been made from time to time with regard to delays in sending out payments. I know and I fully appreciate their very great difficulties owing to the dislocation of communications in the country and the postal dislocation in many places, but I think this is a difficulty which they have inherited, and it is only right to say that they are blamed with the sins or the neglect of their predecessors. I understand, at least I was told, that some time ago, by the older regime, that they had found very great difficulty in getting the staff that they thought they should get from the Government. I do not know whether that is the difficulty still, but if it is, then it certainly raises the point which I raised a few evenings ago when the Estimates for the Ministry of Finance were under consideration; and I think, if it is found that the want of sufficient staff is the cause of many complaints in this direction, that such a staff as the Minister thinks is necessary for the running of his office ought to be put at its disposal.
These Estimates for National Education present what I may figuratively describe as a "far flung battle line." To engage them at every point would require not minutes but hours and days, and, consequently, I shall restrain my zeal and try to concentrate on what I regard as the central position, and that is the Training Colleges. I think we are all agreed the Ministry of Education on the one hand, and the Deputy who has just spoken on the other, that whatever reforms may be instituted or be attempted in regard to the construction of a great National system of popular education, we must create efficient Training Colleges, and give them all the facilities and all the favourable conditions that are required, that they should function properly. Now, at the present time and for a great number of years a difficulty has been that the Training Colleges, with the exception of that managed by the National Board in Marlborough Street, are denominational colleges. What I have just said might be interpreted as an expression of regret that they are denominational. What I mean is that because they were so they have the status of private enterprise. They are described here officially as under private management and licensed for students according to certain figures. The late National Board—it is not late in all accuracy, as it still exists in a sort of suspended animation—but for all practical purposes of administration it is the late National Board, and its constant difficulty was that it had no authority whatever to order the heads of the Training Colleges to do anything. It could only recommend. An hour before it ceased to operate it had gone almost to the length of threatening these Training Colleges. Now it is well that the members of the Dáil should understand what the position is, and they can be made aware of it through understanding the details set out at the bottom of page 6 of the official Estimate. There is a temptation here to be egotistic, and I will resist the temptation yielding to it only to the extent to say that I am responsible—if not altogether, in a large measure—for the carrying on of the agitation and the completion of it, in so far that it is in any sense now completed— for the securing of larger grants in aid of the Training Colleges. In earlier years there was a grant of £50 each year to the denominational Training Colleges for each man student in Training, and £35 for each woman student. During the lean years of the war that miserable contribution was the maximum contribution from the State. The natural consequence was that these institutions ran into debt, as the cost of living increased and the contribution remained stationary. Repairs to the buildings were out of the question. Bonuses to the professors and the teaching staff of the Training Colleges were not thought of by anyone, except now and then, perhaps, by the miserable professor who longed for it. In one of the Training Colleges, on account of the fearful experience to which they were subject in these lean years, two members of the staff went mad. It is no laughing matter when I tell you one of them died in the Lunatic Asylum, and one of them recovered for a period and then died. There would be more sympathy, I know, if I were talking about the best way of raising mangold wurzels, but because I am talking about the best way to provide a proper scheme of education, which is the basis of the whole National life and its future prosperity, that is to be treated with derision. The National Board was approached, it took the matter in hand and it succeeded in securing from the Treasury this larger additional grant. It was held, and I have no hesitation in saying rightly held, that inasmuch as increased salaries were now being paid and a much higher rate of remuneration given to the National school teacher, it is only right that as the introduction to other professions has to be paid for by the aspirants to them that those who sought this fairly remunerative occupation of National school teacher should contribute in part towards the cost of their education and training, and consequently this arrangement set out on page 6 of the Estimates was arrived at, that in proportion to the amount paid by the teacher in training to the College, the State would advance a certain additional amount. Now the primary purpose for which this additional grant was made was to enable the Training Colleges to give a better salary to the teaching staff, and at the moment that the Provisional Government suspended the operations of the National Board it was engaged in the reform of the Training Colleges upon these necessary lines of insisting upon a proper scale of salary and a proper recognition of the status of the members of the teaching staff engaged under it. It was not possible for the National Board to call upon the administration of the Training Colleges to pay according to these scales. They could merely recommend, with the added threat, that if the Principals of the Colleges continued to refuse to apply sums of money in that direction, it would be the duty of the National Board to inform the Treasury that an honourable understanding entered into could not be carried out; or in other words, to give an intimidatory warning that the Board could not press the Treasury for these grants unless the Heads of the Colleges were willing to expend them in the proper way. Now, the situation at the present moment is that in these Training Colleges, and more particularly in the Church of Ireland College, a great step has been taken in advance. The teaching staff have received remuneration on something of a scale commensurate with their standing and the importance of their duties, though it falls short, and considerably short, of the scale recommended by the National Board. But in the college to which I particularly refer a great reform has been made of putting it in vital contact with the University of Dublin, so that the teachers undergoing training in the Church of Ireland College in Kildare Place are, for every year they spend in training, advancing towards a degree of Dublin University. That is a reform we have sought to bring about through the agency of the National University. I took the first step in regard to it nearly twelve years ago, and we are still taking the first step. There has been practically very little advance until within the last month. The National University set up a Committee to deal with this question, because the University is empowered by its Charter to deal with the training of teachers and the inspection of schools. A deputation was received by that Committee from the distinguished and experienced body of which Deputy O'Connell is representative. The representations made by the Central Executive of the National School Teachers' Committee, the representations made by the Association of Professors of the Training Colleges, and the representations made by Convocation of the National University were all in agreement. There was practical unanimity as regards the reform required, and that was to secure intimate co-operation between the University centres of the National University—Dublin, Galway, and Cork— and the Training Colleges for the National School teachers. These suggestions will be submitted at the next meeting of the Senate of the National University, and I have no doubt whatever that the Senate will confirm the wishes of the Board of Studies in this regard. This is a very long story, and I am not, unfortunately, relieving it of any of its tediousness, but it is most important, at least in the conception of those of us interested in educational reform, who think that the situation is one that should be thoroughly understood. An estimate has to be made as to the number of teachers who may undergo training and who can be absorbed by the schools. Otherwise we shall become merely trainers of teachers to be exported to other countries. That has been the case to some extent for a long time past. We train more teachers in the training colleges than we are able to provide places for in Ireland, and the best of our products have gone to better-paid places, fortunately for them, in Great Britain and in the Colonies. Now, one of the tasks awaiting the Minister for Education is to make a more accurate estimate of the number of teachers to be trained, and, above all, to secure from the Minister for Finance the funds requisite to bear the enormous cost —for it is bound to be an enormous cost—of carrying through reform for these educational objects we are so anxious to promote. The reform is that the teacher should go through two years of training in a Training College under its professors, and following the programme recognised by the University, so that at the end of the two years the teacher shall have satisfied the special Educational Authority as regards ability to teach the subjects in the primary schools, and has satisfied the University authorities as regards progress and efficiency in the cultural as distinct from vocational subjects—subjects that go to qualify for a Degree—so that on leaving the College the matriculated student could be regarded as through the first year's University examination, and would have then merely to attend for two years at the University College to take out his Degree. This keeps the teacher out of occupation for two years, and furthermore the fees and the other expenses must be met, and could not possibly in either case be met by the teacher himself, and so local Scholarships—either County Council Scholarships, or private Scholarships, along with Scholarships available at the University must go to the assistance of the students in passing to a Degree. How much that will cost I could not suggest, but what I am anxious about is that the Irish public should realise that no matter what be the cost the expenditure will be right, and it will be one of the best National investments to which the taxes of the people could possibly be put. There are other items in this which I will deal with later on as I understand I am allowed to speak on another occasion.
I have listened with great pleasure to much of what has been said by the two Deputies who spoke previously, and I agree with nearly all the opinions to which they gave expression. Personally I think Deputy Professor Magennis is absolutely correct when he said that it was in our treatment of the Training College lay the way of getting at the root of altering or improving our system of Primary Education in Ireland. "Rome was not built in a day," and, as he said, there are many things in connection with the system that might be raised in those Estimates for Primary Education, but I think the best way to begin is to make sure that in our Training Colleges the best possible measures are taken to provide for teachers, who in their work through the country will thus be able to carry on the methods we shall lay down. I would like to modify one word of what Deputy Magennis said. He referred to our creation of Training Colleges. I would like to suggest rather that under the difficulties that had been faced our Training Colleges had in the past done exceedingly good work, but they were handicapped by the insufficiency of the grants they received. Owing to the backing they got from the National Board the State Grants they received were very substantially increased, and increased in a good way, namely, the State Grants were accompanied by contributions from the individuals getting trained, and that, with the additional help those increased grants will provide them, we may confidently look to the work being still further improved in the future, but the point I want particularly to refer to is the connection with the Universities to which both speakers made reference. I think it is impossible to over-estimate what the importance of that may be. It is bound at any rate to widen the outlook of the trained teacher, and when he comes into contact with the children through the country he has, as a result, a widened outlook. I am happy that the University which I have the honour to represent has been the pioneer here in this movement. The measure to which Deputy Magennis has referred is already in operation with, I am happy to say, every sign of its successful working. The great advantage is that whilst the teacher is in course of training he will be brought into the position of having nearly half completed his University course, and we hope that at the conclusion of those two years numbers of them will be able to complete their University course and obtain a University degree. I do not want to trench on the subject of our next Vote, but I think we are in the happy position in this Vote of having advanced a good way towards putting the national teacher in a position in which he may be able to carry on his work without, at any rate, undue financial strain. It is impossible for any teacher—I may go further and say for anyone—to carry on his work efficiently if he has to carry it on under the burden of keeping the wolf away from the door. The National teacher had that burden for years. We are glad to observe that that difficulty for them has been largely got over. I mention that merely now as an introduction to what might be said at a later stage. One other point I would like to refer to before I sit down. It is somewhat connected in a secondary way with the last remark. If the teacher cannot carry out his work under more or less relieved conditions, how can you expect the child to benefit? In many of our poor districts it is impossible. The local conditions should enable the children to be taught under conditions of comparative comfort. How can we expect them to benefit by the education we offer if they have to obtain it when suffering from cold? I should like strongly to support what Deputy O'Connell said in that connection. If we offer education, it is no use to offer it in such a way that the child cannot take advantage of it. I am confident, at the same time when the Government are able to settle down to deal with those problems properly, that they will not be adverse to dealing with that really pressing condition in many parts of the country.
Badh mhaith liom freagra ón Aire ar cheisteanna éigin ag baint leis na meastacháin seo atá ceaptha ag an Aireacht um Oideachais. An chéad phoinnte: faoi'n litir E 6, leathanach a 10: caidé na leabhra seo atá tugtha i n-aisge? An leabhra speisealta iad a tugadh do sgoileanna nó leabhra do bronnadh ar na sgoláirí, nó páisdí? Tá fhios agam, agus againn go léir gur iomdha páisde sa tír nach féidir leis a athair ná a mháthair morán airgid a chaitheamh ar leabhra agus ba mhór an rud é da dtiocfadh leis an Aire cuidiú leis na páisdí seo. Agus cad chuige nach bhfuil an t-airgead céadna ag dul do na leabhra seo i mbliadhna is a bhí anuiridh, £200 i mbliadhna is £400 anuiridh, agus an iad na "Sé Conndaethe" atá cionntach leis an laghdú sin? Maidir le ceist na gcoláisde is cúis áthais dom a fheiceáil go bhfuil airgead ag dul i mbliadhna arís do Choláisde Mhuire Naomhtha i mBeilfeirsde. Tá súil agam go leanfar de sin. Ní mian linn aon dealughadh a bheith idir oidí sgoile na Sé gConndaethe agus oidí sgoile an tSaorstáit ná idir teagasg Gaedhealach na roinne sin agus teagasg an tSaorstáit. Tá fhios agam go righ-mhaith agus taim cinnte go bhuil fhios ag an Aire gur mór an spéis a chuireann na h-oidí san tuaisceart i gcúrsaí oideachais an tSaorstáit, gur mór an ionntaoibh agus an tsúil atá aca as an Aireacht seo againne agus gur mór an cuidiú a thig leo a thabhairt don gulaiseacht chum aon Stát amháin agus aon phobal aonta amháin a chur i n-uarchdar i nEirinn. Bhí ceist eile agam —ceist na sgoileanna do ghlanadh acht rinne an Teachta Tomás O Conaill trácht go beacht ar an gceist sin. Tá súil agam go míneochaidh an tAire na rudaí seo.
Another point about which I should like to speak is the provision of continuation schools. The Dáil will realise that the only education which the children of the working men, as a rule, receive is whatever is provided to them for a very few years during a comparatively small part of their youth, and that has been of such a nature up to recent years that it has consisted largely, not in education, but in mere instruction. They have learned, for example, interesting facts, such as the length of the Yang-tse-Kiang or the population of Hong Kong, or something about the lumber trade of Canada, but the development and the training of their capacity to think, the cultivation of their imagination, a training to assist them in the providing of a way of life later on that will be distinctively human—these things have been neglected, and that was largely because of the mechanical conception of education that prevailed amongst members of the Boards that were in charge of so-called education, and largely also because of the method of inspecting schools. The grants from which the National school teacher was paid had to be parcelled out in quantities, and to enable that to be done easily and effectually you had payment by results. To make the proper substitute for that you require to have an adequate system of inspection and the Inspectors for this purpose require to be no ordinary men—not merely men that had passed with high honours in the University Degree Examinations, but men who, by their temperament and by their training, and by all their personality, are enthusiasts for education, and who can enter sympathetically into the work of the teacher in out-of-the-way localities, in difficult situations, where the conditions are all adverse, and be able to give encouragement and advice. That is part of our ideal, but practice falls short of ideals, and no matter what we do, it would be impossible, even under more perfect day schools of the future, that during the short number of years in which the students are present they could lay anything like a proper foundation or get anything like real education. It is necessary, therefore, that we should take measures to secure that even when they have become wage-earners something should be done to promote continuation of their education and to put them in the way of mental development. We have often heard it quoted, "Not by bread alone doth man live." There is the ordinary view that the common man ought to be satisfied with his day's work, if he has steady employment, and with ordinary rate of remuneration, and that tobacco, and perhaps the "pictures" as they are called, will be sufficient recreation for him in his off hours. We talk a great deal about the constructive work we are going to do —of re-creating the Gaelic state. I look forward to such a betterment, such humanisation of city life especially, and of life of all labourers and workers, that they shall have opportunities, not for leisure to be passed in a common way, but something that will approach to a cultured leisure, that they shall lead distinctly human lives. Again I would advocate that this is not an impossible or an unattainable ideal, that it can be approximated to if only we set our hearts upon its attainment. It will call for expenditure of money. Again I suggest that everything that makes a good citizen of a good State, that helps to promote happier and higher elevation of living, is money well invested. Now, Deputy O'Connell spoke of another matter which is very dear to my heart, and I have spoken of it so often that I feel ashamed to recur to it again, and I spoke of it here before, and that is the provision of great central, well-equipped schools, instead of dotting the country with miserable little huts, where sanitation is non-existent in many cases, and where the seeds of disease and future disability are laid rather than the seeds of future personal development. The late Dr. Starkie told me that in a certain district not very far away from Dublin, in a little village, there were no less than eleven National Schools, and the explanation for that was that denomination A, under a non-denominational system, so-called, demanded to have a school of its own, and there were schools for girls and schools for boys. But denomination B required the same equality of treatment, with the result that there were actually eleven schools in one centre. I need hardly tell you that the number of teachers in these schools was so small as to make the teaching, of necessity, inefficient; whereas, for the same outlay of public money it would have been quite possible to set up in that locality a school, or two schools at least, in which you could give them all that was desired. This is part of the denominational difficulty, and it is also a part of another difficulty which I need not go into for the moment. There is another question, and that is the heightened cost of books for school children. Everybody who is a book-buyer—and particularly those who, like myself, are interested in the production of books—is well aware of what the enormous cost has become since 1918. A book which we could have produced for 8d., with a fair margin of profit, could not be produced at the present day for less than 2s. 6d. Hodder & Stoughton declared recently that until the book-buying public became accustomed to paying 15s. for what they paid 6s. recently, it was impossible for publishers to take an author's work and produce it. Now, many years ago the National Board of unhappy memory, that we were all taught to cast stones at and explosives metaphorically, had a provision by which it subsidised the production of school books. It was possible in the old, bad days for teachers to write to the Board's offices and obtain pupils' school requisites at reduced cost. The Board provided the subsidy, and the school children profited thereby. But then came the Boer War, and the British Treasury required all the cutting down and economies that it could effect, and the school stores of the National Board were closed, and the public were encouraged to believe that a better system was introduced to provide free competition between publishing firms. I can speak feelingly on this subject from inside, knowing very well that free competition between publishing firms has led to the payment of very respectable dividends. I know one book publishing firm which had to send books to Scotland and re-ship them from Scotland to Sligo, with the object of reducing the cost of school requisites for children. Now this cost is a thing which has to be faced. We in our own zeal for educational improvement prescribed the most beautiful programme in which the teacher and student or pupil are introduced to close acquaintance with the great masterpieces of the literature of the past. The production of these books costs money. Parents are not always able to buy books. What is going to be done? Shall we reduce the number of the schools, and by centralisation be able to provide school libraries? Shall we come to the assistance of the poor in that way? I think that is very desirable, and a subsidiary argument in favour of this scheme of reducing the number of unnecessary schools and expending the money more profitably for the nation on properly equipped and properly staffed schools.
Lest there be an impression that the interest in educational questions that comes from these benches may to some minds seem to be an interest mainly in the conditions of teachers, I want to point out that of course that is not so, and not even Deputy O'Connell, who can speak with so much authority on behalf of the teachers, has the teachers' outlook alone. He has distinctly in his mind the civic needs as well as the teachers' interests. I was glad to hear Deputy Professor Magennis make the plea for beautification and humanisation and I want to say here that I am not quite sure we are all of one mind on the ideal towards which we should tend with regard to education. Without being very definite or dogmatic I think there is a tendency in modern times to overstress the necessity for large centralised schools. On the score of economy it might be desirable, but I want to bear in mind myself, and I think we should try to generally spread the idea, that the school for the young ought to be something like the University for the adult. That is to say, that it is not the building which makes the school but it is the group under the teacher or master. All that of course leads one to the necessity of encouraging the very best quality of manhood and womanhood to take up the teaching profession. We might have the very best equipped schools; we might have the perfect material instrument but yet have very bad education and very bad schools. I want to stress the need for thinking rather of the teacher and master at least primarily, or the teacher and master in his relation to the children, and only secondly in regard to the school and the equipment. But while it is only secondary it is of very great importance. I would add the plea that we ought to encourage the qualities of beauty in the surroundings of the children, even though it means some deficiency in quantity. Take school books. It is very necessary that a child should have a sufficiency of books. I am not in favour of having that sufficiency of books if they are going to be badly printed, and badly turned out and ugly books. I would much rather see a fewer number of well-printed, well turned-out beautiful books so as to accustom the minds of the children to a desire for better things rather than to have a multitude of badly printed books encouraging them, as they do, to the purchase of the ½d. and the 1d. alleged comic papers. In that respect I think the plain school building might very well be made very much less plain with a very small expenditure, that is to say, a very small expenditure of money but a considerable expenditure of care and interest and thought. Then there comes the question of the teacher and his relation to his children or her relation to her childen. If we have teachers with some ideas of beauty and culture and taste inculcating those same ideas in the minds of the children, and getting an opportunity in the school life to develop those ideas and apply them, then we can develop a taste and an interest in the more beautiful things. I do not know how far it is possible within the present educational schemes to experiment in the plans that have been tried in other countries; of the little commune where elder scholars at any rate shall be given practical experimental tuition in civic management, where the children of the school are made responsible for the school republic, where they are made responsible for the inculcation of the practices of Government; where they appoint their own President and their own Executive and administer the law of the school, and generally get some ideas in a playful way, if you like, but taking very seriously as they do, some of the practice of responsible government. In my reading, this experiment has been very successful indeed. I hope if it has not already been tried in this country a way will be found for developing that idea in both the primary school and the continuation schools or secondary schools. That, no doubt, is much more easily accomplished in the smaller schools than in the larger, provided you have the teaching staff in a position to apply those ideas, and, shall I say, if that teaching staff has an opportunity to develop or to be trained and to be enthused with some of those ideas. I think in that respect the training of teachers should not stop at the Training College. Whether it should be part of the responsibilities of the Educational Authority or part of the responsibility of the Teachers' Organisation I am not going to say. Perhaps a voluntary combination of both would be better than either of them. I would suggest that there should be frequent opportunities given for teachers in counties or large districts for coming together for the purpose of undergoing a course of training in the practical application of these ideas—the summer school idea, for instance, applied to the development of education on the human side, apart from the more technical and practical. I think there is much room for continuing the training of teachers after they have left the Training College by such means as I suggest, and I would commend to the Minister for Education and to the Teachers' Organisation the establishment of week-end schools for the consideration occasionally during the summer period of educational ideas. They might not be afraid of inviting educationalists and humanists from all parts of the world to come and speak to them and enthuse and inspire them with these educational ideas.
It is very dangerous for an outsider to speak on the subject of education where there are so many experts listening. I have noticed there is one aspect of the educational system that has not been touched upon. We are an agricultural community, and while the facts that are instilled into children in those primary schools may be very interesting facts, the things which matter in their future life as agriculturists and labourers on the farm are absolutely neglected. While you may have a boy who can tell the length of the Yang-Tse-Kiang, about which Professor Magennis has been speaking, if you put him into a grass field he cannot tell you the name of one blade of grass in the field. Bring him along in the seed time, mix the seeds together and he could not tell you Italian rye grass from perennial or scutch or any other variety of grass which we have. Yet we are supposed to be educating them for the work of this country. Are not these experts losing sight of a very material point? I look on this matter just as it strikes myself; there are hundreds of things which we grow in the field and there is not a boy in a school who knows the name of them. I am not talking about botany now, but the actual weeds in the farm field. Bring a boy and ask him what is the name of anything there and he does not know. Ask a labouring man, and in one district you will get one name and in another district you will get another name. Part of the education in the primary schools should be directed towards establishing an interest in these things which will mean a living for many of the children in future. That is a point that has been neglected by these experts. If we had a revenue of one hundred millions per annum instead of twenty millions—I hope the Minister for Finance will reduce it to ten millions, because this country cannot afford to pay twenty millions to run it, and bigger countries than this are being run on ten millions—for the schemes put forward by those learned professors, the amount would not be able to carry them into effect. It is all very well to say a teacher should be given University education. The position at the present moment is a good one in the primary schools. The doctor has to pay for his University education, and the lawyer and the solicitor have to pay also. The teacher should contribute towards his own University education. The position now is a very good one, and I am sure you will get sufficient eligible teachers—men and women fitted for the position—prepared to spend money on their education and so equip themselves with the necessary qualifications. It should not be paid from the State. We have not got the money. We would like to do it if we had the money; but we have not the money. The tendency in this place is to imagine that we have unlimited capital to float schemes for everything, but where is it to come from? We are a people of three millions, or a little more, and we are collecting a revenue of twenty-seven millions, and it must be reduced if we are to progress. That is another aspect of the question which ought also to be kept in mind. Now, if there is one thing in this country which has been over-developed, it is imagination. Deputy Professor Magennis says it should be developed in the schools. We are all imagination. The people of this country imagine themselves the best people in the world, the finest peasantry. Deputy Gorey told me we are all descended from kings. Now, what more imagination do you want than that? To get down to something practical, I really think there is too much imagination about. We imagine that we are rich and can afford all these sort of things. I do not want that feeling to go about, because we have no money, and must live within our income, and unless we do, and the Minister for Finance brings down that 27 millions to 10 millions, we cannot progress.
The Deputy who has just spoken seems to be living in an insulated receiver of some sort out of all contact with the larger world. If he were aware of what is happening in the larger world outside of him, he would know that there is not a country in the world, and more particularly a country in Europe, affected by the late war, that has not wakened up to the fact that its whole future depends on its expenditure upon education. Those who think that to go on farming in the old, unenlightened way will make agriculture progress and enable this country to face competition with, say, the United States of America, or, say, with the cattle production of Canada, do they not know perfectly well that the first thing the primary schools were intended to do was to lay the foundations of education, and not to turn out a boy of 14 or 15 or 16 years of age an expert on seeds or an expert on particular grasses? The subject of interesting a pupil in the things round about him, to give him the interest of a human being in his environment, is not neglected by educational bodies. We have provision made for what is called nature study, and there is a large amount of attention devoted to that. Surely, as regards farming, ability to calculate and to keep accounts is just as important an element, although I believe that some farmers do not keep accounts, but whether that is due to the income tax collector or not I am not prepared to say. I notice that the Farmers' Union representatives have displayed from the very first a marked hostility to education from the first day.
Not at all.
I do not attempt any psychological analysis as to why that is so, but they seem to think—if they have thought about it at all—that by starving education they can in some way promote the interests of agriculture.
How they have arrived at that extraordinary decision it is hard to say; and the rest of the country will have to educate them up to this, that the whole future of the country depends on our facing the educational problem manfully, and not be dismayed by those cries about what it will cost. There are other directions in which economies may be effected, but to starve the soul of the present and future generations is not an enlightened policy to advocate here, and that is what it amounts to—the starvation of the soul. Deputy Wilson is against the development of imagination. What he calls imagination is not recognised as imagination by anyone else. He thinks that a disease of the brain is an argument against the brain. He is under the impression that imagination, unenlightened, uncultivated and uncontrolled by education, and allowed to run riot, is the only type of imagination that is possible in a human being. It is simply because he has misconceived the nature of education that he is hostile to it.
Not a bit. I am badly interpreted by the learned Professor. I am not opposed to education, but I am opposed to the system by which boys and girls in this agricultural country are diverted from the means of being properly educated. Fancy children living in Ireland, and not knowing the names of grasses growing in the fields. Is not that more important than knowing the length of the Yang-tse-Kiang?
Do the farmers when they visit Dublin know the names and order of architecture represented in all the houses round about them?
I understand in my absence I was referred to as a professor.
Of agriculture.
Well, I am not. I was not here listening to the discussion, and consequently I am at a loss, but I want to say in regard to education that in an agricultural country like ours I think education ought to be directed to fit us for the position in life which we have to occupy. Agricultural education is neglected, in fact it is an item that is not at all attended to in the schools. We have, practically speaking, no agricultural education, although we are an agricultural country, and the vast majority of the people are living in agricultural areas, and are dependent on agriculture but are not fitted by training for the positions they occupy, neither boys nor girls, workmen or farmers. No matter what anyone may say, what these great Professors may say, I know that as an agricultural community we are not educated for the positions we are going to occupy.
That is exactly what we are contending. There are just one or two other points I should like to bring your attention to. I must say I cannot congratulate Deputy Wilson on his speech, but I may congratulate him on the fact that he does not suffer from the complaint he alleges we suffer from, that is too much imagination. There is too much talk about the length of the Yang-tse-Kiang. I do not know where it is, and I certainly do not know the length of it. I challenge anybody in this Dáil, except perhaps Deputy Professor Magennis, to tell us the length of it. That is not what is taught in the schools, and people who talk about it do not know what is taught in the schools. I agree that agricultural education is necessary undoubtedly, but there is a proper place, a proper time and a proper age for agricultural education. It is essentially necessary to a country like this that there should be a proper system of agricultural education, and this is one of the things which we are most anxious to press for, and we hope that in that connection we will have the assistance of the Farmers' Union and other Unions throughout the country. There is just one thing I would like to ask the Minister for Education to refer to when he is replying, and that is the question of bonuses. It comes under the heading of (H) on Page 3 of the Estimates. The improved schemes which Deputy Thrift referred to were introduced one or two years ago. It was undoubtedly intended that a pensions scheme would be a corollary to that improved salaries scheme, and the pensions scheme was dependent on the salaries scheme. The pensions scheme has not materialised yet, and while I fully appreciate the fact that the finances of the country may not, at the present time, be such that one could press for a full revision of the pensions scheme, there is a certain class of teacher who is particularly hard hit by the fact that he is retiring two or three years before the salaries scale comes into full operation. I will not go into detail on this matter. I know that the Minister is fully aware of its effect, and I am most anxious that he would give it attention to see if anything can be done to relieve the undoubted hardship of this particular class of teacher. Just one other word. Many matters have been raised on this Estimate and there are many other matters that could be raised but have not been. There is no doubt that a scheme of reform must be inaugurated in the very near future through means of legislation. I would like that the Minister would say whether he is taking any steps to prepare the legislation which is undoubtedly necessary and which we would all like to see introduced at the earliest possible moment. I would suggest, in that connection, that it will not be necessary to set up, as has been done in several other cases, a Commission on anything like a large scale, because several Education Commissions have sat and taken evidence within the last few years, and their reports are all available. It will only need a very small Committee to co-ordinate such evidence and such reports as are available, and suit them to the conditions which now exist in this country.
There is only one aspect of this most important subject that I want to refer to, but I think it is perhaps the most vital aspect from which education can be viewed, and that is the civic character, the training of the child from the point of view of a citizen of the Irish Free State. I hope that right away from the commencement, under the auspices of the new Government, the whole education of the future citizens of Ireland will be permeated with a thorough National feeling and sentiment and that the duty and responsibility of the growing child as a citizen of that Irish Free State will be inculcated from the earliest years when that child is open to the use of reason. Many of the ills from which we suffer to-day, perhaps most, can be traced to the fact that the education of the children for generations past has never been on the right lines, nationally speaking. We want to make the Irish population in the future an Irish speaking nation, a people who will have the sense of civic responsibility and civic duty, and every boy and girl will feel, and every man and woman will feel that the future of Ireland will be in their hands, and that it is for them to make and to increase the well-being and welfare of the people of the country and the nation as a whole. I just leave that one suggestion to the Dáil and to the Minister and to those concerned with the shaping of the future courses of education in Ireland, and I hope that from the bottom to the top—I say from the bottom to the top because it is at the bottom we should make the right commencement—the whole education of Ireland will have that underlying principle upon which it will be based for the rearing up of the young generation—the rising generation of to-morrow and of the coming two years —so that the State may be strengthened when that generation comes to manhood and to womanhood.
I understand that a deputation of teachers superannuated previous to 1917 waited on Deputy Lynch in Cork some time in the early part of this year, and certain promises were made by this gentleman that provision would be made to increase their allowances. I understand that the allowances which they receive are hardly up to a living standard, and that they have been very sorely hit during the last few years. I would like to know, when the Minister is replying, what exactly is the position of these men, whether provision will be made in the near future, or is being made. I understand that their case is a very severe one, and that there are about 2,500 such at present in Ireland. I also think that the allowances for manual and practical instruction in the schools are very small. I think it is just as important to look after the practical training of the girls in the schools as it is to educate the boys. We are turning out girls from our schools at the moment absolutely useless for the State, absolutely useless as mothers, and as wives, and I think the sooner we get some good sound system introduced into the schools the better for the State.
I am not going to traverse the ground already covered by the previous speakers. I associate myself with the principles that have been enunciated by Deputy O'Connell. I am very glad that Deputy Johnson pointed out wherein the life of a school consists and what the equipment of a school should include. Environment is included in the equipment, and environment in the schools is as educative as books and the words of the teacher, and scholars educate one another as much as teachers and books do. That is one reason why I think we should not have so many of those very small rural schools. I think we ought to aim at doing away with very small, insanitary, rural schools, and endeavour to gather the outlying pupils to larger and more central schools, perhaps by the aid of State assistance, in the new system. However, principally I want to ask the Minister for Education for some more information. These Estimates are most informative. On page 5, under the heading "Inspection Department," I notice that a new scheme of inspectorate has been adopted. I heard of that some time ago, and I was afraid that the change might involve some hardship on our existing inspectors. My fears are relieved by the footnote. I see the Minister for Education is taking steps to see that these changes may not involve any particular hardship for the existing staff. Perhaps he will give us some more information regarding Marlborough Street Training College, on page 7. Some time ago I was informed that that Training College was done away with and the staff dismissed. I see that there is provision made in grants and bonuses for 1923 of £20,000, and that it is estimated in 1922-23 that the number of students in Marlborough Street should be taken as 50 men and 210 women. I would be glad to know what the intentions of the Minister for Education are with regard to this college.
There is one matter to which, I think, attention has not been drawn, and that is the question of the language. We all know the interest of the Minister for Education in Irish, and I hope he will take this opportunity of informing the country of what he has been able to do, and what he hopes to be able to do now, when for the first time education is in our own hands, to develop to the fullest possible extent the teaching of Irish to the children.
D'fhiafruig an Teachta, Cathal O Seanáin díom cé an fáth ar chaitheadh £400 ar leabhra i n-aisge anuraidh agus nár chaitheadh ach £200 i mbliadhna. Murab é an dealú idir na sé Conntae agus na sé conntae fichead, ní fios dom láithreach cé an fáth. Glanadh na sgoileanna má cuirtear mar sglábhuidheacht nó mar pionus ar phaisdí é; is mór a sgannal é dar liom. Tá Coláiste i mBéul Feiriste ag múineadh na Gaodhluinne agus ag dul ar aghaidh go maith agus tá coláiste annso ag tabhairt conghamh do'n sgoil ins na Sé Conndae, agus is maith liom go bhfuil an réidhteach san idir an dá riaghlacas.
The criticism of Deputy O'Connell about the sub-division of these Votes is undoubtedly justifiable, but in our case it is hereditary, that is to say we have taken it over and it is impossible to change it in a day, and in the time that has elapsed since we took it over, and if the change were made it would be very difficult to set out the estimates so as to enable Deputies to compare the votes of the present year with those of the previous year. We have, I think, six distinct heads under which Education comes before us. There is what is called Public Education—that is the Vote we are now discussing—Technical Education, University, education in connection with Land Institutions, and finally one department of education which comes under the head of Crimes. I do not know exactly the name of the vote but I think it is Industrial and Reformatory Schools. There is no doubt there should be some considerable unification, and it will be most desirable in future that all these educational votes should come before the Dáil in some way that would enable it to realise exactly what is going on at the present time. In Ireland we have education chopped up into several compartments, with gaps, and again over-lying and over-lapping, and mixed up. My own opinions about these things are probably a bit peculiar, and I should not like to force them upon other people, but in my opinion this whole artificial system of dividing education into elementary, secondary and higher, is without any basis at all in relation to the interests of the children and the need of the people and of the community. I cannot give any answer that would be worth giving with regard to the question as to the maintenance of school-buildings, heating, etc., for the simple reason that the only answer worth giving would be a considered answer, and that I am not prepared to give at the present moment. The question of assistants being thrown out of their engagements through the lowering of averages has been before us for years and years. As to the remedy suggested by Deputy O'Connell, to give these preference to vacancies, as far as I can see that could only be done by making some very much more elaborate arrangements than we have at present for absorbing into vacancies those disemployed in certain schools because, as you know, the system by which teachers are appointed to schools is not by public authority but by a system of local selection, and it would be impossible under the system which exists, and without a complete change, to say that assistants disemployed in one place must be employed in vacancies that occur in another place. Now, with regard to the amalgamation of small schools, what has been said on both sides is very sound. Altogether the discussion we have had this afternoon is one I think that has been taken part in with great satisfaction not only by those who have spoken, but it has also given great satisfaction to those who have listened to it. It is pleasant to see in this young legislative body so much earnestness shown, particularly with regard to making further improvements, and I would remind Deputies that the making of improvements in the future will be a matter for them as a body more than for any Minister. My own technical experience in dealing with this subject is, as you all know, very short, and if it was very much longer and I was able to speak with a great deal more authority and expert knowledge on all these points I would still feel I was far, far and very far from being wise enough to be sole legislator on any points of education. The amalgamation of small schools is undoubtedly desirable in many cases I think the caution Deputy Johnson advanced in regard to that shows that we should not run away with the idea that large schools are necessarily better than small ones even if they lead to greater economy and meant that a superior teaching staff was employed. There may still be some disadvantages. With regard to the delays in sending out payments, I do not know that just at present there is delay of any kind. There have been delays in sending out, and in receiving claims, and these delays, I presume, were due to the passing difficulties in which the country finds itself at the moment. Various things were advocated here, and, of course, it is well that they were advocated, but I do not know whether I am called upon to refer to them, and especially to such things as Continuation Schools. There was one point not touched upon, but I was asked about it some time ago, and that is with a view to the securing of better attendance of pupils in schools. A proposal came to me from a local Attendance Committee in County Dublin and they suggested a method of securing better attendance, which was to compel children who failed in their ordinary attendance to attend at a particular class of school —a certified day school—and to attend there temporarily, where they would have to put in a few more hours and which would have the effect of imposing a more severe discipline. I mention that because the School Attendance Committee of Blackrock Township say they have evidence that such a system has worked successfully elsewhere. As to what was said about training, well there again I do not feel competent to take the matter in hand, nor do I think the Ministry is the right instrument to take a question like that in hands in the first instance. I think the movement has gone in the right direction when men from the Universities have taken it up It is really for them—people engaged in educational work—to shape educational projects, and when that has been established and thrashed out and taken form I think it is then the duty of the Government to take that up, and in my opinion the Government never yet existed that is wise enough to take charge of any educational project. What is at the bottom of education, as everybody knows, is good teachers. You have to obtain good teachers, and when you obtain them you have to sustain them; and if you have a good teacher, he will produce better educational results teaching under a hedge than a bad teacher would produce in the most palatial surroundings and with all the equipment and facilities with which he could be furnished. I agree with Deputy Johnson that schools should aim at a certain amount of cultural education. You will all agree with me, I think, it is true of the country and the town that children, and, for the matter of that, middle-aged people, have very little respect and affection for the place to which they belong, in this sense, that they do not wish to see their beauty and cleanliness, and things of that kind, preserved and disfigurement avoided. All experience of all of us in our youth shows that with regard to the places where we were brought up. We are careless about these things. We take no real pride in our country; and if we were proud of our country, we would be proud of the little bit of it to which we belong. Now, with regard to agriculture, I do not think we do much for it in the primary schools, which are the subject of this particular Vote. At the same time, I think that Deputy Wilson was right in his remarks in regard to this matter. It is not right that children in the country should not know one tree from another or one field from another. I do not think that their knowledge ought to be limited in any way merely to what would make a livelihood for them. The reason they are so ignorant is because they have got it into their heads, and their parents have it in their heads, that nothing is worth knowing anything about except what will help towards their livelihood. Now, with regard to manual instruction, the sum that appears in the Estimates does not at all represent the general expenditure on manual instruction. A few years ago there was a great craze in regard to this, but which after a short experiment was wisely enough discontinued.
Dubhairt an Teachta Seoirse Gabhaín Ua Dubhthaigh go mba ceart dom an méid a bhí déanta agam mar gheall ar an Teanga a innsint do'n Dáil. Ní mór lé rádh a bhfuil déanta agam-sa. Ba dhuine eile a dhein an méid a dineadh. An té ar mian leis fios fhagháil ar sin, tig liom clár na h-oibre a thabhairt dó, agus ó'n gClár cífhidh sibh ná fuil annso ach tús, ach, is maith an rud san féin. Is dóigh liom agus tá gach aon cúis agam fé na coinne, go bhfuil gach duine dáríribh, na múinteóirí, na scoláirí agus na leanbhaidhe, chun an teanga do thabhairt thar nais agus tá an Gaodhluinn dhá múineadh i ngach sgoil anois.
Maidir liom-sa, déanfaidh mé mo dhicheall chun an Gaodhluinn do thabhairt thar n-ais.
Marlborough Training College appears in these Estimates not in full form, because these Estimates are of necessity got up a month or two earlier than the time they represent. The college has been definitely closed, and I think it was using the words "teachers were dismissed" not in an exact sense, when they were really retiring on pension, and I hope, when the whole account is closed, that their retirement allowance will be equitable and satisfactory in each case.
Will the Minister make a statement about teachers' pensions?
I think I dealt with that in answer to a question of Deputy O'Connell before, and I have no additional information at the moment with regard to it. It was a question that interested me very keenly, but it is clearly a question of finance, and it is a bit thorny and full of difficulties. The teachers who feel it most keenly are those who, if they would be allowed to remain longer, would qualify for a better pension. Really the teachers to whom my sympathy goes out, are those who are cut out from all chance, and some of these teachers—both men and women— are on utterly inadequate and ridiculously small allowances.
Motion made and question put:—"That the Dáil in Committee, having considered the Estimates for Public Education in 1922-23, and having passed a Vote on Account of £2,850,000 for the period to the 6th December, 1922, recommend that the full Estimate of £3,863,921 for the financial year 1922-23 be adopted in due course by the Oireachtas."
Agreed.