The next Estimate is for Intermediate Education. It amounts to £132,750. I beg to move it.
DAIL IN COMMITTEE ON ESTIMATES FOR PUBLIC SERVICES. - INTERMEDIATE EDUCATION.
A Chinn Comhairle, the fact that a separate Vote has been moved for Intermediate Education illustrates the point I referred to, and which was referred to by the Minister for Education a moment ago—that the method by which these Votes are taken is water-tight, and often overlaps sections of our Education Scheme. The fact with regard to this particular Vote is this—that it does not purport to make provision for an Intermediate system of education at all. Up to six, seven or eight years ago, I understand that no provision for Intermediate Education appeared in the public Estimates. There is a grant which is popularly called the "whiskey money," because it is the proceeds of taxes on some whiskey, so I think the position is—the more whiskey that is drunk the more money there is available for that particular class of education. But these particular grants that are made here became necessary a few years ago owing to the position which a certain class of teachers in these schools occupied. And it is really illustrative of the system or the methods of the British administration. But when any particular demand or any particular body of people became sufficiently clamant, they threw them a sop to keep them quiet for the time being, which was really tinkering with the system. Now, these teachers to whom I refer are the teachers engaged in the secondary schools or colleges throughout the country. I might say right off that no other body of public servants in this country are so inadequately paid or so scandalously treated as these teachers. And they are a small body, and possibly it is the case that because they are a small body they are so badly treated. In 1914, I think, the first grant was given. It was given on certain conditions, one of which was, I understand, that a certain proportion of lay teachers should be employed in the schools, and to arrive at the proportion the schools were divided into two groups, according to their religious denominations. My information is, in any case, that the conditions provided that one lay teacher should be employed for every forty in one of the particular groups of schools —the Catholic schools. That condition has not been observed or carried out. If it is a fact, I think it would be advisable that the authorities should look into the matter. These men are men of the very highest qualifications. Very many of them—practically all of them now—have to possess University degrees, and before they are registered they have to have three years' experience as teachers. The average salary which is paid to them is not much more than what is now allowed as the initial salaries of teachers in the National Schools under the latest scheme. If we are to have a proper linking up of the educational system, immediate attention must be given to the position of these lay secondary teachers. They have grievances, not only in the matter of salaries, but in the matter of pensions. These men have no pensions whatsoever. They have no salary scale. There is no such thing as a regularly established scale for these men—a minimum the same as is laid down in the case of the National teachers and which must be paid. Further, experience, qualifications or length of service are not taken into account when fixing the scale. As I say, no provision is made whatsoever for pensions, and, of course, they are not able themselves out of their meagre incomes to make any proper provision for their old age. Then there is the question of security of tenure which should hardly be mentioned at all because they have no security of tenure. They are liable to dismissal on short notice irrespective of their qualifications or experience or the length of service in any particular school. It depends largely on the conditions in a particular school. On this question I think it will be in the minds of most of the Deputies here that these men two years ago were forced into a position that they had to go out on strike. I think when men of the type of those who are engaged in our secondary schools and colleges are forced to take up that position things must be in a very bad way indeed. In this connection I would like to remind the Minister, as illustrating what I said a moment ago about the security of tenure, that I called attention to earlier in the Session to a case that happened in Limerick. It is something like about two years ago since the strike took place, and since then twelve lay secondary teachers employed in the city of Limerick or in the precincts have been dismissed. The Minister promised to make inquiries into that particular case, and I would like to know if anything has come of these inquiries. I certainly would urge that something should be done to prevent a thing like that happening in the future. I would like especially to draw the attention of Deputies to the fact that this sum of £63,000 which appears in the Estimate has, I understand, already been expended. It was paid on account of the educational year which ended last June, and I am anxious to know from the Minister for Education what is the intention with regard to the present school year, because, if I am correct in saying that this £63,000 was paid on account of the last education school year, then no provision appears in these Estimates in any case for any grant or any similar grant for this current school year, and we would like to know what the intentions of the Minister are—whether he is going to make any provision to meet the clamant needs of these badly-treated secondary teachers until such time as he can bring before the Dáil a scheme of education which will make suitable and proper permanent provision for them.
I would like to say a few words in support of the case put forward on behalf of the secondary teachers. We all congratulated ourselves here several times on the fact that at long last the salaries of the teachers in the National schools have been raised to a decent level. Every argument that applied to the teachers of the National schools applies with equal force to the teachers of secondary schools. They are only weak in one point—that they are few in number, and not able to kick up the same row and to bring the same pressure; but I am sure they will not suffer owing to that weakness from the present Ministry. We talk about an educational ladder—about climbing up from the National school to the secondary school and into the University—but if the middle rungs of the ladder are weak and bad the whole system is defective. We upbraided a foreign Government, when we had it here, on the fact that they pursued a policy that was deliberately intended, according to our view, and as I believe, to neglect the education of the country and to starve it, and they paid a policeman more than they paid a teacher. They gave the primary teacher of a National school at that time a pension that was, in some cases, to my knowledge equivalent to the outdoor relief rate paid to poor people. Now at present these Secondary teachers, I understand, are getting less than is paid a sergeant of the Civic Guard. It is a scandal, a terrible scandal, to be paying decent people who have to get a University education in certain subjects in order to qualify them to teach them in National schools. You say to the teachers, in order to qualify to teach them, you must study a certain programme. The pupils who go to the Secondary schools have a more advanced programme, and you must have a better class of teacher to teach them. What is the position? You do not pay them as well as people who are less qualified. If there was justice at all you would pay them better. Now I would speak as strongly as I can in support of the case made for them. On the question of tenure, I have heard stories from men who have given years of their lives to education who have been thrown out of employment with less consideration than a heartless employer would throw out a servant girl or a yardman. It is a terrible scandal the way they are treated. If a man goes to the Civic Guard, or if he goes to be a soldier, or to the Dublin Corporation, he must get a guarantee of tenure, but the poor Secondary teachers are like bullocks that are put out on the grazing system. They only enjoy the eleven months' system. Again Deputy O'Connell spoke of the necessity of providing University education for teachers in the National schools. Well, it is little good for the teachers in the Secondary schools, in fact University education seems to be almost a reason for treating them in a very bad way. Then as to pensions, there is no possibility and no outlook and no hope for them in that respect. Now that we are speaking lovely things about education, and if we have a real regard for education, we must have the system complete, and it cannot be complete until these Secondary teachers are done justice to. I hope that in any time we have before the new system is devised some attempt will be made to give justice to the Secondary teachers and relieve them from the humiliating and disgraceful position in which they are at present.
I should like to support the appeal made by Deputy O'Connell and Deputy Sears on behalf of the Secondary teachers. I do not propose to go over the ground again, as I think it is universally known that their position has been a scandalous one, and that as a result a good many of what would be perhaps good, if not the best and the most capable, Secondary teachers have been driven out of the country and are now teaching as Primary teachers in England and Scotland. I do not want to labour the point as it was laboured quite enough. I want to draw a little attention to a rather different aspect, and that is, that many of us—those with whom I am associated— desire that there shall be rather greater opportunities for boys and girls in the ordinary Primary schools, to get a Secondary school education. I was very glad to find the Minister for Education, in his last reply, taking the view that education, and even education on a particular subject, is not necessarily intended to earn money for the boy or girl who is educated, because the view I hold of such miscalled education is that it would be profitable all right to certain people, because it might make in certain directions a more efficient wage earner whether on the farms, in the factories or in the workshops, but it would not make necessarily a better citizen, and it is better citizenship, more all-round citizenship that we want in Ireland. I have not had a great deal of experience of Intermediate Education, but I think it has been defective in the past, particularly in that element of citizenship which is so desirable. I hope, since I had the misfortune to go through the Intermediate, that the teaching of something like civics has found some place in the Intermediate system, but I would like that the Minister would consider—I do not expect he would turn down the proposal—something in the way of providing scholarships for Primary school pupils. Now, boys, at all events, in the cities of Ireland, even ordinary workingmen's and artisans' boys, if the father is in anything like constant employment, have had certain opportunities through the Christian Brothers' schools of getting Secondary education, and while on many points the administration of the Christian Brothers' schools, from my point of view, may not be altogether desirable, I think a tribute should be paid to them for not alone the National line they have taken, but for the educational opportunities they put in the way of the ordinary run of boys. I think it has not done the young men of the country very much harm; in fact, I think that more than a proportion of the young men of the last few years, who have given great and genuine service of one kind or another to Ireland, have not been only Secondary school teachers, but Secondary school boys, whether from the Christian Brothers' school or from the other private institutions. I want to point out to those who are objecting to greater expenditure on technical education that this is a matter where a sense of proportion is desirable. The teaching of agriculture has its place. It is a matter of proportion, and a sense of proportion would save many of us from falling into the errors that we would otherwise make. Of course, the same criticism would apply to a great many other things as well as to education. To me there is one great criterion of expenditure, whether of education or anything else, and that is, in the moral or material way, does it give value for the money spent? It is a question of value to the State, to the Nation, to the people, as well as to those on whom it is spent. When the ratepayers complain of rising rates the same thing applies. There is nothing vicious, wrong, bad, or objectionable about increased rates any more than there is about increased taxes. The whole question to me is whether the money raised is used profitably and to the best advantage. I think that is a good criterion of the question of expense, so that it is a short view and a wrong view to take that the country must necessarily be run on ten millions instead of twenty or twenty-seven millions. I do not mean that there should be excessive spending even on education, but there should be a considerable amount, and I should like a great deal more to be spent on Secondary education. While it is true that the generality of boys and girls in Ireland will never get much more than a Primary school education unless that they get a technical training of some kind afterwards, yet the ordinary workingman's son and daughter are going to play a much bigger part in the near future than they did in the past. I do recognise that to a large extent the administration of Ireland will be falling into the hands of young men and young women who ought to be well educated, and that a good many of them need not necessarily have what is called a University education at all, though I should like they would. I think it de- plorable that such a situation should be created as was created a few years ago and as was referred to by Deputy O'Connell this evening when Secondary teachers had to strike for a living wage. I know that the whole question is complicated and that the Ministry may not be able to deal with it without entering into very controversial questions. There are more factors than one to be taken into consideration. There is the position of the lay and clerical teachers and the opportunities that certain institutions have of employing or taking advantage of certain people who have not necessarily to get their livelihood out of teaching. And that above all puts the Secondary lay teacher in a very difficult position. I recognise that, but I recognise at the same time that some steps will have to be taken to deal with the proper claims of the Primary teachers. But again I would stress the importance of the sense of proportion and the importance of looking at these things not as a single isolated estimate at all, but as part of the whole. I am very glad that, in some respects at all events, the reply of the Minister for Education as given on Primary education has been on the whole very satisfactory. If the view that he has expressed so far as Primary education is concerned is going to be the view, or anything like the view, of the Ministry on Intermediate or Secondary education, then I think there is going to be a chance for better citizenship and better trained citizenship in Ireland. In that connection perhaps I might be allowed to wind up with a little story illustrating something that I have been saying, that is to show that while those who like economising may be following one track they may be drawing a false analogy in some other direction. The story is this:—There was a certain boy in an Intermediate school in a French class. He came across a certain word of which he did not understand the meaning. The teacher tried to get him to analyse it, and in that way to get at the meaning of the word. He asked him what did he think the roots of the word were. The boy looked up the words and the first thing he got was, "pater," a father. He looked at the second part of the word and he found that it was another Latin word and he got the roots of it and stumbled a bit. Eventually the teacher gave him a little assistance, and he analysed the word fairly correctly by saying that patrimony meant some goods, or wealth, or something like that, that probably had come down from a man's father. The teacher, who was a bit of a wit, then said, "Now, what would be the meaning of matrimony," and the boy replied that it was goods or wealth or something like that that was handed down from the mother. That is an illustration of what some of our farmer friends are suffering from. They get on the wrong track. They think the cutting down of expenditure here and there is advisable and that by that means they are going to get the correct definition of matrimony. They are not; they are going to get the wrong one, like the boy.
I have just heard a Deputy in the Lobby state that the schoolmasters are having a field day. I am very glad they are having a field day in the Dáil, and I would remind him that schoolmasters had many a field day when there was more than talking to be done. I would like if it were possible and if it were in order, to move that the vote for Secondary education in Ireland, or at least one section of it, should be increased four-fold. That is under Section (B). I think it will be agreed that the salaries paid to Secondary teachers in Ireland are altogether inadequate and altogether out of keeping with the profession. A casual glance at the Vote for primary education and the Vote for University education, and then a glance at the Vote for secondary education, will reveal, I am sure, the great want of parity there is between the Vote for Secondary education and the Votes for either of the other branches. Now, to come down to some facts which members of this Dáil may be altogether unaware of with regard to Secondary teachers' salaries, I may say that for several of the years of the European War Secondary teachers in Ireland were paid salaries varying from £50 per annum to a maximum of £120 per annum. It is well we should know that. After repeated attempts the British Government gave an interim grant which gave the teachers a yearly bonus from £20 to £30 additional. The teachers are not much better off to-day, and I think the average salary in the Secondary schools runs somewhere about £170 or £175. I give that figure subject to correction. I would ask members of this Dáil to consider how any man in a Secondary school can support himself, not to speak of a wife and family, on such a salary. There is no bonus, and no pension when he comes to be past his work, and he has not even any fixity of tenure. He has no guarantee that he will continue to receive that £170. What is the effect of all this upon Secondary education? There is a constant loss, a constant drainage from Ireland, of the very best teachers from our Secondary schools to Secondary schools in Britain and America. They are lost to the Nation. Apart from that the Secondary teacher is eternally faced with anxiety about his means of livelihood. That affects his work. He carries that anxiety from his home to his class work. Very often he has to have recourse to means extern to his profession, to supplement his income in order to live. He is overworked and cannot give the time necessary to prepare for his class work. Consequently in class he becomes irritable, and all these things must of necessity affect his work in school. The effects then on the pupil are injurious. There is inefficient work done and that is due largely to the anxiety that perpetually faces the Secondary teacher. That inefficiency not only affects the work done in a Secondary school by the teachers in such a position but it affects the work done in the University, because if the pupil in the Secondary school does not receive efficient education he must naturally go to the University unfitted for University education. I am sure, however, that in the present Minister for Education the Secondary teachers will find a good friend, for he will look at the question from the National point of view and he will look at it also from the humanitarian point of view. I am sure he will realise that people who are eternally anxious about their means of livelihood cannot do efficient work for the Nation. I would, therefore, ask the Minister to assure the Secondary teachers of the country that he will look to this matter of salary, of pensions, and of fixity of tenure personally, or otherwise that he will commit a further term of reference to the Commission on Secondary education which had been appointed by the Second Dáil and which I think has not yet completed its work. I understand the Commission will meet very soon. Now I would urge the Minister to do either of these two things, to take the matter up himself, to get away from this Interim Grant, to draw up a salary scale for teachers in the Secondary schools, or else to entrust to the Commission set up by the Second Dáil a further term of reference dealing with the whole position of the teachers in the Secondary schools in Ireland.
I wish to congratulate Professor Whelehan on the genuine argument that he has put forward in support of Intermediate teachers. It was no skit on Latin words, and certainly his attempt has been a genuine one.
At this stage An Leas-Cheann Comhairle took the Chair.
It has been the genuine and the one argument that I have heard in support of Intermediate education. We have often read from time to time of the grievances of Intermediate teachers. Well, I suppose we have got so case-hardened that it is only a mere pass-word. We have heard a lot about the Royal College of Science being turned over to military control. I know parties who left the Royal College of Science and have gone into Intermediate schools, and I know probably what their average salary was. I know in one case after a man had taken out an Associateship of the College of Science he got a position in an Intermediate school at 30s. a week. He had to pay £1 5s. of that for his board and lodging, and he had the other 5s. for himself. This continued for about 32 or 33 weeks of the year. I cannot give all the particulars with regard to Intermediate education, but I will state a few broad facts. In an Intermediate school boys have to be taught from the age of 14 years up to 19, and the subjects that have to be taught at that age require a greater amount of assiduity, and a greater amount of skill, and far more patience, than in the case of people who have not advanced to that age or men who go to a University from an Intermediate school. Now the average salary for an Intermediate teacher is about £160 per annum. I do not see how any man who wanted to keep up the decency of his profession, and what the people expect of him, could exist on that salary, but I think that the whole system of Intermediate education should be remedied from stem to stern. And not alone should we express a pious hope that it should be done in the future, but I think that immediate steps should be taken to remedy this crying evil.
For more years than I care to count up I have been intimately connected with the working of a good many Secondary schools, and I think it is fitting that with that knowledge thus derived, I should bear tribute to the work that is being done by Secondary teachers. With other speakers, I do not think really it is necessary to labour the point as to the present needs of Secondary teachers. I could add other tales, harrowing ones, but I fancy that most members of this Dáil know the extreme circumstances under which Secondary teachers have been trying to do their work. The fact is, as Deputy Whelehan said, we get no State aid for Intermediate education. This Estimate is only touching the fringe of it. The fact is, we rely on private institutions to do the work of Secondary education and we back them up with temporary grants such as are indicated on that paper. With pleasure I note that in that paper the difficulties of the teachers have been appreciated by the Government, in that they raise the interim grant from £38,000 to £50,000. With pleasure I note that, but still the whole thing means that we are only tinkering with the system by these grants. We rely on private Boards to look after our Secondary schools. We rely on the work done by private gentlemen and others who have given up their time and energy to administer the schools, and while they find in the difficulties they are labouring under they are able to give no more than a sweating wage to their teachers, then the Government has come in with a little more—I am not referring to this Government—but the Government came in with little grants just to help them to carry on. Personally I am aware of the enormous difficulty these Boards have had, and the fact that they regretted the pitiable salaries they were able to give their teachers. The point that I wish to make particularly is this, that anything these Boards can do in the way of increasing their own revenue lies in increasing the fees they charge to students for the privilege of the Secondary education. Now that is going at the matter in the wrong way; for the good of the country we want to give the privileges of Secondary education as cheaply as we can. We do not want to confine it to any particular class. We want to get the best brains of every class; we want to get the best brains in the Primary schools, and give them the privileges of Secondary education, and then we want to get at the best brains in the Secondary schools, and give them the privileges of University education. That is the only way you can get at the people, and the only system for getting the best out of the people. You have a system of dealing with Primary education, but you have no system of dealing with Secondary education, and are merely tinkering with it, and have only a similar way of dealing with University education. The Minister for Education has said that it is not for the Minister to develop the scheme. That is quite true. It is for this legislative body to develop a scheme that will deal with all branches and bring out a comprehensive system through which Primary, Secondary and University education may be made to work hand in hand, co-operating with one another, and give a Primary boy a chance to go up to the top of the tree. I submit, however, that the Minister for Education should consider that a legislative Assembly like this cannot act unless it gets a lead, and there is a life-work lying before him or a succeeding Minister for Education to develop a system of that kind, and bring out a system of education for the country that will involve all classes, and not to make it only for one class, but to give the opportunity to every boy in the country. That is what I hope we are going to aim at. I think the whole question of so much importance, that we cannot hope really to deal with it at the beginning of our career as a legislative assembly, but what I do want to urge is, that as soon as ever matters become practicable, some comprehensive scheme of that kind should be set going and that, meanwhile, every effort should be made with the resources at our disposal to put Secondary teachers in the way of being able to live decently, without undertaking such supplementary means as they have to undertake in order to live at all. They have been paid this grant referred to on this paper from the funds of this financial year, paid last June, but they have no guarantee, and I dare say no such guarantee can be given, but that the grant probably will be given again. They have no guarantee that the grant will be given similarly next year. We do not ask for a guarantee, but it certainly would be some consolation for them to feel that in all probability such a grant will be continued, and that if at all possible it should be increased as a temporary grant; but surely it is our duty, as soon as possible, to try and get rid of these temporary grants in the way of doles, to try to put the whole thing on a permanent, proper, and satisfactory foundation.
Here again I suffer from the disadvantage that there is so much detail that ought to be dealt with as to make it exceedingly difficult to select particular points upon which to concentrate. I like to congratulate the Minister every time I get the slightest opportunity, but I think it is only right that we should congratulate the Minister on his courage in continuing these appropriations in aid of Secondary education on this very extensive scale. But let us not forget that, just as in the case of National education, this Intermediate education is part of the damnosa hereditas which the Free State has been obliged to take over, and under which it is obliged for the time being to struggle. An evening ago the report of the Intermediate Education Board was laid on the table of this Dáil, and I believe I am the only member of the Dáil who has taken the trouble to read it. I see that Deputy Whelehan dissents from that and consequently I must conclude that there are others who have been digging into its depths for facts to employ in this debate. As Deputy Whelehan has spoken largely with regard to the question of salaries I am afraid that he has found this an unremunerative quarry. He must look for these facts in another direction. I go to the report of the Intermediate Commissioners in order to speak a little in defence of a body that has shared a great deal of unpopularity with the National Board amongst those who occasionally interest themselves in educational affairs. You will notice on page 9—Roman characters—a little synoptic history begins of the whole educational system called the Intermediate. “The Intermediate Education Act of 1878 was intended to promote Secondary Secular Education in Ireland” by a variety of expedients which I intend to read. I will take the liberty of reading this because it reinforces the concluding remarks of Deputy Thrift. “It is to be noted that the Secondary Schools in existence at the passing of the Act were in no sense State Institutions”; whereas you will observe that the schools with which the last Vote has been concerned were State Institutions. “Some were old foundations, their funds derived in the first instance from Royal grants or from private benefactions, some were private ventures, some belonged to Roman Catholic Religious Orders. But in all, the management, whether vested in a Board of Governors or in a private individual or in the head of a religious Order, was independent of any control on the part of the State. The new Act did not contemplate any change in this system. That the State should interfere with the education of the upper and middle ranks of society was a doctrine which would have found few or no supporters in the Imperial Parliament of that period.” We have all become democrats since that time, and we are all anxious now to change the old order and to replace it with something, not new because it is new, but new because it is better. Now the history of these funds is set out, beginning with page. “For the purposes of the Act the sum of one million pounds sterling, portion of the funds derived from the disendowment of the Irish Church, was placed at the disposal of the Board. The income from this source was originally £32,500, but, in consequence of alteration in the rate of interest it fell to £27,500. This was until 1911 a fluctuating amount, varying from £71,400 in 1900 to £16,998 in 1910, being the residue after the payment of a fixed sum for Primary education of the produce of certain taxes on spirits.” This became available as a further endowment. Now, I am anxious that you should understand how these figures come to be under these three heads. There is, first of all, the income derivable from the capital sum of £1,000,000; there is the income derivable as the residue from spirit taxes which Deputy O'Connell has referred to as “whiskey money.” That sum, fortunately for this country's morality, declined, as you will see, from £71,400 in 1900 to £16,998 in 1910, so that later the sum had to be fixed, and it was fixed at £46,000. Now, the two incomes are further supplemented at a later period, as you will see on p. 15. “In 1914 a further Act was passed dealing with Intermediate education in Ireland. This Act provided for the setting up of a register of the Intermediate school teachers in Ireland, and for the payment to the Board in each year out of moneys provided by Parliament of a sum not exceeding £40,000 (referred to in the Act as the Teachers' Salaries Grant).” Now, that is the item referred to in Estimate B. That is payable really in relief of teachers' salaries. And then again, “In March, 1918, Parliament voted an additional grant of £50,000 for Intermediate education in Ireland. This grant was intended to be Ireland's equivalent of the additional grant voted by Parliament for Secondary education in England and Wales.” These sums were recently divided according to a certain proportion between Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland, and the amount payable in consequence of that division, you will see on this Estimate, is very much smaller than the figure that I have read out. If you will allow me later to speak I would like to explain what has been the policy in recent years of the Intermediate Board by way of an apology, because this is really its swan song. Anybody who has noticed the language used in the new programme of Intermediate education will notice that the Intermediate Education Board is doomed to disappear. For the moment, however, I will confine myself just to one item, and that is item (b)—the grant towards the salaries of teachers in Secondary schools. The detail on page 2 of Estimate 20 says the Grant will be distributed in accordance with rules made under Sec. 2 of the Intermediate Education (Ireland) Act, 1914. Now, I brought these rules—which are really in the nature of statutes because they lay upon the Table of the House of Commons in Westminster and took on a statutory character—and it is under these that the present Minister is obliged, pending any legislation that the Dáil may see its way to effect, to distribute these grants, and I am desirous of its being well understood by the public through an examination of these, that the miserable salaries that are paid to secondary teachers is a victimisation of educated men which must not be laid at the door, either of the Intermediate Board or, temporarily, of the present Minister for Education, so long as the allocation of the grants will continue under the rule referred to. This is a very complicated matter, and I think only those who are vitally interested in it would take the trouble to understand why by the Act of 1914 the Lord Lieutenant of the day was empowered to draw up rules to govern the Intermediate Board in the distribution of the grant, and the third rule to which reference is made is, I regret to say, very long. It is laid down that the Teachers' Salaries Grant is distributed for promoting employment upon reasonable terms of an adequate number of duly qualified lay teachers in Intermediate schools. In this Grant, which is popularly known as the Birrell Grant, it is expressly declared in these statutory rules to have been provided for this purpose, to secure reasonable terms of remuneration for an adequate number of duly qualified lay teachers. Now, we come to the rules. In the case of Catholic schools—schools under Catholic management—they are called Group I., and all these schools are dealt with collectively as a unit. In the case of each of these groups the total number of duly qualified lay teachers employed in the schools comprised in the group must not be less than 1/40th of the total number of Intermediate pupils attending these schools. There is a popular and erroneous impression that the requirements are that for every forty pupils in an Intermediate school under Catholic management there must be a lay-teacher. That is a misconception. All the Catholic schools are grouped together as one and then the proportion of lay-teachers employed in the total group must be one for every forty pupils who accept the rule of the school for the purpose of the Intermediate Board requirements. “The total number of the duly qualified lay-teachers employed in the schools comprised under the group shall be computed on the basis of the average number of such teachers employed. And the employment of a duly qualified lay-teacher shall not be taken into account for the purpose of this condition unless he is entitled,” and I ask special attention to this: “under his contract of employment to a salary not less than the appropriate minimum salary specified in the schedule to these rules.” And the appropriate minimum salary is for a male teacher £140 and for a woman teacher £90 per year, in cases where board and residence are not provided. One hundred and forty pounds and £90 per year! and there must be a legal contract between employer and employed with regard to such salary, otherwise the fact of the salary being paid is not operative for the purpose of this Act. And unless his contract of employment (except in case of dismissal for gross misconduct) is determinable only upon three months' notice in writing taking effect at the end of a school term. And then there is a clause about the number of pupils and so on that I need not trouble the Dáil with. Now how does that work out? It is a matter which I do not envy the Minister for Education the necessity of dealing with. What is a lay-teacher? The ordinary man in the street would answer readily “anyone not in Holy Orders is a layman, and I suppose a lay-teacher is a teacher not in Holy Orders.” The intention of Mr. Birrell and his advisers was to define as a lay-teacher the ordinary lay-man as contrasted with a member of a Religious Order. Now there are various Religious Orders which under their Regulations have not the priestly character. Nuns for example are, strictly speaking, lay-teachers. The Presentation Brothers, the Christian Brothers, although wearing the frock of the monk and living under monastic rule are—in the strict legal interpretation—laymen, and when you compute the number of lay-teachers employed in a group of Catholic schools you are obliged, according to the legal effect of the rule I cited to count the members of these Religious Orders as among the lay-teachers for the purpose of this distribution. It is one of the grievances, I understand, of the genuine lay-teacher that the provision in aid of his meagre income is not given to him fully because of the deficiency of the English language, and because of the inability, so to speak, of the draftsman, to make it clear. Thus the sum intended for the ordinary lay teacher is made to depend upon the way in which you interpret the rule. In the report of the Intermediate Education Board for Ireland with regard to this matter, it gives the sum of £35,445 as distributed to the schools in Southern Ireland, together with a certain amount for administrative expenses. The total number of Intermediate pupils as defined in those rules I have read out is 18,746. Of the boys' 213 schools with 15,523 pupils are under Catholic management. In these the number of duly qualified lay-teachers, i.e., non-Monastic Brothers, conforming to the conditions laid down, is 215. In addition to those there are 204 nuns and 58 members of Brotherhoods who claim to be “lay teachers” and who are registered and fulfil the conditions laid down. The decision as to whether these are or are not lay teachers now rests with the Minister. You see what is the consequence of that failing an authoritative decision upon this matter. The situation is one, I may say, without exaggeration of pitiful difficulty and the situation already bad is still further complicated by the fact of the strike referred to by some of the Deputies earlier. Headmasters declare the contracts that existed were broken by the strike and refuse to renew them. The consequence amongst others is that there is one very distinguished college about which I know something in this city which is returned as having no contract with the lay teachers, and the consequence is that the lay teacher has not a three months contract terminable in writing under the provisions of this rule. In this distinguished college I see the first teacher on the list—one of the most efficient teachers of his subject in Ireland— he was a teacher in the college when I was there, and I find that his income is £190 a year, plus £75—or £265 in all. It would be better for him if he had joined the police. I turn to other colleges and I find salaries of £140 a year, £160 a year, £40 a year, £60 a year and so on. I find that Miss Mary McSwiney, whose name caught my eye, is teaching in St. Ita's High School, Cork, and she has £247 a year. Miss Annie MacSwiney has £185 with a house, fire and light, so those women in this respect are a little better off than men. It is a miserable state of things that after all the talk and public discussion, after all the Board's inquiries, committee's reports and commissions that we are still talking about the same thing, the lack of co-ordination among primary, secondary and University education, and the failure of the public to appreciate the fact of priceless service rendered to the nation by men who devote themselves to education. Unless a man is in the limelight nowadays no one imagines he is doing anything for his country. No attention is paid unless you are throwing bombs. I gave a typical case of a man who served his country long and faithfully as a devoted and efficient teacher. He has no pension rights, no contract, and if his employment was terminated to-morrow he would legally have no grievance and the country would not concern itself in the least as to his fate. And we expect to reconstruct this Nation and to repair the intellectual and moral damage done all through the country and to build up an Irish Ireland again, and we think we can draw upon an educated community for their services in schools to make of the coming generation, good citizens and good Irishmen, and we do not think that we cannot draw teachers into that profession when there are other walks of life which will remunerate them better and in which their activities will be much better appreciated by the public. The public is notoriously ungrateful to those who serve it. Here is a small class, limited in number, and its case could in some slight measure be met if we could only enlist the sympathy of the public. There is no use setting up another Commission, the Moloney Commission has already investigated this salaries question; they took all the evidence that could be got together and it is available for our purpose. I apologise to the Dáil for being so long and I thank you for your indulgence.
I would like to stress one point on which a great deal of weight has been laid by previous speakers. I do not want to dilate on the miseries of one of the most useful sections of the community and the most ill-rewarded. We hope that in the near future a weighty and comprehensive scheme of legislation will be presented to the Dáil in which these grievances of the Secondary teachers will be removed. These Estimates to-day are a record of failures. The very form in which they are presented tells the history of a failure over the whole page before that Act of legislation was presented. Before the new order has been adopted there is a period, and I think Deputy Whelehan saw this when he proposed that you should quadruple if possible the grant under (B), that is the Birrell Grant. The grant under (C) is more or less a failure. Money that should have gone to the teachers has been diverted at least to some extent to the manager, but there is no assurance that he will get all the increase that has been voted under the head of (C). But I would like to ask the Minister of Education is it possible to make an emergency grant in this interval between the old and the new? It is not sufficient to hold out once more hope to these teachers. They cannot live on it and have very nutritious diet. They cannot pay their bills. I hope the Minister for Education can see his way to bridge this financial gap.
The Intermediate Board in this report which was laid upon the table of the Dáil point out what their policy has been and the policy they would recommend. Since 1906 the general trend of their policy has been towards combining, as far as their statutory powers permitted, an efficient system of inspection with the system of examination. According to the report for the year 1916 they desire first the abolition of the restriction which makes the School Grant depend entirely on examinations. (2) The adoption of a system whereby examination and inspection should have each a large share in determining their Grant. To attain these objects, they have long been in favour of abolishing the present examinations and substituting for them an examination for an "Intermediate" and also for a "Leaving" Certificate. The School Grant should be a Capitation Grant paid to schools which satisfy the required conditions on all pupils between certain prescribed ages who have been in regular attendance throughout the year. The Capitation Grant should be greater for students between the ages of 16 and 19 than for those under 16 years of age, and then their closing aspiration is "The Board are satisfied that whatever changes the future may bring to Irish education, progress can only be made along the lines pointed out by them in their Reports during a series of years, the provision of sufficient funds for Secondary education, proper salaries, increments and pensions for teachers, with due security of tenure, and the abolition of the payment of results fees dependent on the examination results of individual students. These reforms which they have unavailingly advocated in the past will, they trust, be brought into operation under the new Government." The public who criticise the Intermediate Board with such asperity, knowing very little of its productive work would, I think, be surprised to know that the Intermediate Board was opposed to the Chinese system of examination and the paying of teachers on the results of a paper examination, and has advocated and advocated very strenuously the substitution of inspection, and on one occasion the Commissioners arranged to resign in a body unless their demand for a body of permanent inspectors was complied with by the British Treasury. Now, I venture to suggest that the Intermediate Board's recommendations here are worth the consideration of this Dáil as indicating the lines upon which future progress might proceed, and I would recommend them more particularly to the notice of the Minister for Education.
It is hardly necessary for me to delay much longer in making a reply to the statements that have been made, because I think those who have spoken so intelligently on the subject of Intermediate education know exactly how the question stands, and how I stand in the matter. I say this much that it would be not only a calamity but a very gross injustice if funds, that may be forthcoming in any shape or form, were not provided in continuing the provision of the late interim grant. Deputy O'Connell raised the whole question of the position of Secondary teachers—and he was followed by other Deputies. There are three points— salary, tenure of office and pensions, on which I do not think there is a single person alive who, speaking conscientiously, would deny that in these respects the position of Secondary teachers is gravely unsatisfactory. I do not say it with regard to justice, with regard to the men and women concerned, but in regard to the public interested and the right education of their children. At the same time I think it is recognised by all that there are very great difficulties in the case, difficulties in the way of settlement, and some of the difficulties are inherent in the case as it stands. The fact that you have devoting themselves to this work of Secondary education two different classes of persons, those who come as individuals, and who may be married or unmarried or at all events keep house for themselves in the outside world, and those who join communities whether they are in Holy Orders or not is an essential fact in the case. They join communities and live community life, and the circumstances between the two are totally different. Then there are those who form communities and who have a proprietoral interest in the schools, whereas others have only the relation of being connected on whatever the terms may be. The whole of that will have to be faced, and it will have to be faced on a two-fold basis, justice to the persons concerned and educational efficiency. Deputy O'Connell asked me with regard to the cases of the twelve teachers dismissed in Limerick. I am still acquiring information on that subject. Of course it is known that I can only acquire such information as people voluntarily supply me with. I was asked a question by Deputy Cathal O'Shannon some time ago with regard to teachers dismissed in another school in Dundalk. He asked me whether I would enquire into this matter. Well, I have enquired into it, and I think in justice to the school concerned—St. Mary's College, Dundalk—as the question has been raised it is proper that I should state the result of the enquiry. The following reply was received by me from the President of the College on the 7th October:—
"Referring to your letter of the 22nd ult., I beg to state that as President of St. Mary's College, Dundalk, I parted with three lay teachers in June last, not four as stated in the question. The services of one of these were no longer required and I gave him three clear months' notice. The other two were dismissed without notice for alleged misconduct calculated seriously to prejudice the welfare of the College. I hold in writing the charges made against them by competent authorities."
Then he states he will supply me with the further evidence of the charge. I asked for further evidence. Fr. McVicar writes:—
"I beg to call your attention to the fact that the reply which I forwarded to you on the 7th October has not yet been made public. In justice to the College I think said reply should get as much prominence as Deputy O'Shannon's question. In case An Dáil cannot find an opportunity of giving my reply to the public I shall deem it a duty to the College to communicate my statement to the Press. My action in this matter is rendered all the more imperative in view of very serious threats which have reached the College in the name of the I.R.A."
I think the use of the name of the I.R.A. in this matter was bogus and it illustrates the sort of elements that are let loose by the present state of things in the country. Fr. McVicar sends me a copy of the Notice, dated the 15th November, 1922. I suppose I had better omit names:—
"Notice to Frs. McVicar and Byrne.
Unless N and M are reinstated in St. Mary's before one month from above date we will blow College up and execute those responsible for the unjust dismissal of those men. Fr. McVicar should remember what the I.R.A. can do. Spies and tyrants beware. I.R.A."
There are other difficulties in this system, too. I can remember in my own experience knowing a large number of secondary teachers who remained secondary teachers for one, two or three years and who when they became secondary teachers never intended to remain permanently, but to use that occupation somehow or other as a stepping stone towards some other walk of life. Of course in fairness to them that occupation should be sufficiently attractive not to be used as a stepping stone, and it is right to say that when used in that way it seriously interferes with those who do not so use it. Deputy Professor Thrift said that the legislature should get the lead. I agree and still I believe that the lead should not come from me. I hope that the Universities will do what they have been doing with regard to the training of Primary teachers and that they also will take this question in hands, because in the matter of education everything grows down. I am afraid there is the contrary notion in many people's minds that things grow up, but in education everything grows down. It comes as the light comes from the sun. And the test of education is that it is the source of other educations. I do not think at this hour there is anything further that I could properly add. It is impossible for anyone to supply a satisfactory answer to all the points that have been raised, and I do not think it is expected by those who raise them that I could supply such an answer. I think the main object has been to bring this subject in an emphatic way before the attention of the public through their representatives, and I trust that that intention will not be disappointed, and that all the Deputies belonging to this assembly will bear it in mind that one of the heavy responsibilities that will lie upon them in the future will be to make all the provision, financial and otherwise, that is necessary, and that in their judgment they can make to remedy this very faulty state of things.
Motion made and question put:
"That the Dáil in Committee, having considered the Estimates for Intermediate Education in 1922-23, and having passed a Vote on Account of £70,000 for the period to the 6th December, 1922, recommend that the full Estimate of £132,759 for the financial year 1922-23 be adopted in due course by the Oireachtas."
Agreed.