Before the President makes a statement we might take the next item on the Orders of the Day—Temporary adoption of Standing Orders.
ADOPTION OF STANDING ORDERS.
I beg formally to propose the adoption of the Standing Orders temporarily.
Standing Orders of the Provisional Dáil.
May we understand what is meant? Is it the Standing Orders that have been only temporary that are being adopted? Are we to consider these are being adopted temporarily, or are we adopting them subject to the normal course of alteration?
I think that is the view, subject to alterations, that the Committee on Procedure might recommend.
I desire to second the motion.
Is it not a fact that the Standing Orders are at present in force, because this is not the Lower House, but still the Constituent Assembly, which is authorised by the Constitution to continue to assemble as if it were the Lower House of the Oireachtas. It is the same body was sitting all the time, and I do not think any new Standing Orders are necessary.
Supposing we agree that the present Standing Orders should continue as our Standing Orders.
Agreed.
Certain additions will be suggested very shortly. The next business is No. 7. A Committee of Dáil Eireann to appoint Ministers who shall not be members of the Executive Council as set down in accordance with Article 55 of the Constitution. It provides that every such Minister shall be nominated by Dáil Eireann on the recommendation of a Committee of Dáil Eireann chosen by a method to be determined by Dáil Eireann so as to be impartially representative of Dáil Eireann. The matter was raised at the Committee of Procedure on one occasion, and certain suggestions were made. Committees heretofore have consisted of not more than nine members, and I think it was suggested that the Committee should be a much larger one, say 15, and that nominations should be taken, and the Committee elected by proportional representation. Deputies might, perhaps, be inclined to express their views as to whether that course should be adopted or not. It would be necessary under the Standing Orders to give the Committee terms of reference, to fix a date for report, and fix a quorum.
I would think that it is impossible to give the Committee its terms of reference until we know what Ministries will be included in the Executive Council in the President's nomination, but if there was any inclination to discuss it we could discuss the number of the quorum and the date by which the Committee should be asked to report. Then it would be a matter of discussing merely the precise terms of reference when the President had announced his nominations. I think 15 would probably be a very good number. The recommendations submitted by the Committee will have to be passed afterwards by the Dáil, and it would be desirable that the Committee should be very fully represented, so that there will be as little risk as possible of these recommendations being turned down by the Dáil. I would also be inclined to fix the quorum at a pretty high figure, perhaps 11 or so.
I think that the necessity for preparing the terms of reference will not arise until the Committee has been elected. Consequently that need not delay us. I agree with the suggested number of 15, and that the quorum should be a high one, perhaps not less than 10, and, I think, as we have already experienced the procedure, to insure that the Committee should be impartially representative of the Dáil, and for the purpose of making it a precedent for future elections of the same kind, we should have that Committee elected by the method of the Single Transferable Vote. If it is in order I would propose that.
Strictly it is necessary to state the terms of reference, but that could be waived for the moment. If we get all the other details first it would expedite matters.
Is it not a fact that these outside Ministers might be chosen—I do not see that there is any likelihood that they would be, but they might be chosen—from amongst members of the Seanad? If so, it scarcely seems to me that the Committee could proceed with the elections until the choice of a Seanad by this Dáil has been completed. My impression is that under the Constitution it is provided that these Ministers who are not members of the Excutive Council might be chosen for Members of the Seanad.
Nothing is provided; it is presumed that they may.
Presumed that they may, but if so——
If they become members of the Seanad they will not be precluded.
It would seem that the Committee would be in great difficulty.
That rather arises when the Committee has been elected, but I think it will take at least two days to elect the Committee, and after the Committee has been elected the names of those who are to be in the Seanad, those nominated by the President and those elected by the Dáil, will be known.
I was going to suggest that we should not go further than the choice of the Committee at the present stage.
We cannot go further than to say how many members there shall be and how they shall be elected. This Motion is proposed: "That a Committee of the Dáil, consisting of 15 Deputies, shall be appointed, in accordance with Article 55 of the Constitution, to make nominations of Ministers who will not be members of the Executive Council; that the Committee shall be appointed by the Single Transferable Vote and that the quorum of such Committee shall be ten." There is nothing in that motion except the setting up of the machinery for electing the Committee. It will be necessary to say what the last day for the nominations would be and when the voting papers will be taken up.
They may be nominated now verbally.
Is it presumed that the Ceann Comhairle will be the Returning Officer? I think it would be better if we had the nominations formally. Do I take this motion as being agreed?
There is one matter, I suggest, that may perhaps have been omitted from the wording of the motion and that should be considered; that not merely the filling of certain Ministries might not be included in the Executive Council and that the Committee might suggest a re-constitution of these Ministries. It is rather an important matter.
That is for the terms of reference.
That will arise in the discussion when we come to the terms of reference. Our terms of reference will have to be very explicit as to whether they are included or excluded. That is the process, I think, clearly.
I think that the motion, as it stands, is perfectly correct. Perhaps it would be well to fix the latest time for receiving nominations for this Committee, as the hour at which the Dáil shall rise to-morrow, and the election should then be made at the first possible date.
I do not think that we are well advised in being rushed into the adoption of any procedure at the present time. I think that we will be in a much better position to judge the course to pursue when we have heard the President's statement and the officers that will be elected to the Executive Council. The balance of officers might be open to discussion. Personally, there is one I have in mind, that I propose to make a certain motion on, but before we know what the proposed nominations that are to be made are, we will have to know what number of offices are going to be filled. We will be much wiser in that respect when the President has finished his statement, and I respectfully suggest that we adjourn the whole consideration of the matter until then. We are bound to appoint a Committee by the Constitution, in any case, whatever else may happen, and the only question is whether that Committee should be appointed now in the interval.
I take it that this discussion is quite informal, because it has not been moved, and I am strongly opposed to that.
I formally seconded the motion, and did not speak on it because I took it as a formal motion to the Dáil. There is no reason why the motion should not be discussed, debated, accepted, and, if necessary, divided on now. It does not require the Dáil to wait until the President nominates his members of the Executive Council before we can set up a Council to nominate members who are not members of the Executive Council. No one has suggested that this evening the Ministers who are not members of the Executive Council should be nominated or discussed. All that is the business of the Committee we propose to set up. I do not see why there should be any delay, but as some precision may be required on the Terms of Reference, the sooner we get to work upon the decision to appoint a Committee the better. All that has been asked by Deputy Johnson's resolution is to appoint that Committee by a certain method, and to make a certain number of that Committee a quorum, but that does not commit anyone to pick any particular Deputy for membership of the Committee, much less as Minister in any Executive Council.
The Standing Order which governs the appointment of a Committee is No. 46.
On a point of order, the procedure we adopted a few moments ago was that we disposed of items 3 and 4, and it was suggested that we should take the next—No. 5. I suggest we should proceed in the order on the paper. This discussion, after all, is quite informal, as you yourself said.
I do not remember saying so. The motion made was quite regular. Standing Order 46 says:—"In addition to the Committees consisting of the whole of the Dáil, the Dáil may appoint Special Committees upon motions appearing on the Agenda. Such motion shall, save as otherwise provided in these Standing Orders, specifically state the terms of reference to the Committee, define the powers devolved upon them, nominate the members to act upon them state the quorum in each case, and, if necessary, fix a date upon which they shall report back to the Dáil.
If we are going to strictly observe the Standing Orders we have to refer back to Standing Order 12, which points out that there must be four days' notice of a motion. It is obviously impossible we could have four days' notice of this motion, but, of course, it can be taken by general consent.
I suggest we should arrange the basis of representation from the various parties in the Dáil. I suggest that the Government should nominate their members, and that each party should have one representative to every six of its members, or a fraction of six over four. That would give the Government eleven, our people one, the Independents one, and Labour two.
The Committee might be appointed now if no objection is taken.