Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 6 Dec 1922

Vol. 2 No. 1

NOMINATIONS TO EXECUTIVE COUNCIL.

The PRESIDENT

My nomination as President of the Executive Council has been approved by the Governor-General, and I now nominate the other six Members constituting the Executive Council. I nominate for the approval of the Dáil Deputy Kevin O'Higgins as Vice-President and Minister for Home Affairs; General Mulcahy, as Minister for Defence; Deputy Eoin MacNeill, as Minister for Education; Deputy Earnan de Blaghd, as Minister for Local Government; Deputy Joseph McGrath, as Minister for Industry and Commerce; and Deputy Desmond Fitzgerald, as Minister for External Affairs. While moving those, I would like to say that recently, in reviewing the business of the various Departments of the Government, we set up a Committee called the Government Contracts Committee, which is placed under the Ministry of Industry and Commerce and there is general approval, so far as the Ministry is concerned, that this particular new service would require the association of another person, either as Assistant Minister or as Minister to be responsible for that particular service. I think it would be better that the appointment should be at first that of Assistant Minister, as the Ministry in question has perhaps the best possible means of ascertaining what the duties of this particular Ministry should be. It would be possible to discover during the next six or eight months whether a particular and separate Ministry ought to be set up for that service, or whether an Assistant Minister should be appointed acting under the Ministry of Industry and Commerce, and so enable us after the Elections had taken place to be in a better position to recommend to the Dáil what in our opinion is the best means for dealing with that particular matter. I would suggest to the Dáil the appointment of an Assistant Minister in order to give us an opportunity of seeing what the result would be.

There was one other matter that I thought, after consultation with my colleagues, would be, in my opinion, necessary. We have now got, or we will have after next Monday or Tuesday, a Second House. That House will be dealing with business which has been sent from here. It may initiate legislation and it will generally have pretty much the same amount of business to transact as we have here in this House, and we have come to the conclusion, after considering the matter at very considerable length, that some liaison between the two Houses would be necessary. I would ask the Dáil, as far as that is concerned, to approve of the appointment of a Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry. I think it would be better if he were appointed a Minister. He would be in a position to attend either House and to summon whatever Ministers would be necessary to deal with any matter arising in the conduct of the business, either from the point of view of the Executive Council or of this Dáil. At any rate those two appointments are, in my own opinion, necessary, if not vital, to our business. After six or seven or eight months, when the Elections will have been held, we will certainly be in a better position to see what the necessities of the case are, but I think the Members will generally agree, having regard to our experience here, and the pressure of business in taking over various departments, in dealing with the administration, in bringing in legislation, and so on, that the Ministry will certainly have for six or eight months, and possibly for a much longer period, a great many more duties to perform than will be the case, say, in one, two or three years' time. I think the Dáil, after considering the matter, will come to the conclusion that I put before them now that those two offices ought to be granted—in the first case an Assistant to the Ministry of Industry and Commerce, and in the second case the Cabinet should have the advantage of this Parliamentary Secretary. The Minister for Finance should be in that Cabinet and I am nominating myself for that office.

Mr. THOMAS JOHNSON

Has this to be seconded?

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

It is merely a nomination by the President, and it does not require a seconder.

Mr. THOMAS JOHNSON

Would I be in order in expressing my regret that the President has included in the Executive Council the Office of Minister for Education. I have not any intention of touching the personnel of the Ministry, but I think it is an unfortunate precedent that the Ministry for Education should become one of the political offices that is contemplated in the Constitution. I think everybody who discussed the question of the Constitution and the Executive Council and the possibility of other Ministers being appointed by the Dáil had in mind that the Ministry of Education would be removed from the category of party political Ministries. I am very sorry indeed that the President has been advised to include as one of the Executive Council the Minister for Education. In regard to the two other Ministers, an Assistant Minister as suggested in one case, and in the other a Parliamentary Secretary, I can only say that the Dáil will be bound by the Constitution, I presume, and such persons will have to be Ministers or heads of Departments, and until the functions of those Ministers are defined and the Departments over which they will preside are indicated, it seems to me that we have no option but to defer the appointment of this Assistant and Parliamentary Secretary until some new arrangements are made. So far as the other Ministries are concerned we are bound, I think.

The PRESIDENT

I think Parliamentary Secretaries are different. I would like to give the characters of Ministers to them, so that there would be no difficulty with regard to the Seanad. Regarding what Mr. Johnson has said about the Minister for Education, we must, I think generally admit that the Ministry of Education is a sort of institution in itself. That is rather unfortunate. The Executive Council in this case requires I think such a person. Ordinarily this particular type of Ministry would have been much more happy had it come into operation after the next election. To place upon seven individuals now the sole political responsibilities that Deputy Johnson outlined is certainly placing a very large responsibility on a very small number of men. It is with very, very deep regret that I have not included the Minister for Agriculture. I feel that very keenly. I know the ability he has shown, the attention he has given, the energy he has thrown into his work and the usefulness of his counsel and advice in the Executive Council. I have put in the Minister for Education in this case not so much from the point of view of his service as a Minister, but from the point of view of the individual. I think the appointment would certainly have very general approval from the people, and at the present moment one must certainly look to such a matter as that in making up the Executive Council. With regard to the Parliamentary Secretaries, I do not think it an unreasonable request. I would like to dignify them by the name of Ministers so that there would be no difficulty with regard to the other House, because I look for great results from the other House. I would like that our relations with it would commence to be very cordial, and it is possible that they might resent the appointment as a liaison with that institution of a person not properly clothed by this Dáil with responsibility.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Would it not be better to take up the nomination of the six Ministers, and then take up this question when we are discussing the terms of reference for the Committee. We have to get the assent of the Dáil for these six names.

The PRESIDENT

Very good.

Mr. JOHNSON

I would like to disabuse the mind of the President of the thought that he might have, that I had any desire to exclude from the Executive Council the recent Minister for Education.

The PRESIDENT

I know that.

Mr. JOHNSON

I certainly expected and would desire that that Minister would be a member of the Executive Council, but I was hopeful that he would not be at the same time Minister for Education. not because he is not fully worthy of the office, but because I desire that the office should be detached from the political body called the Executive Council. Further, I think one might say that the conception that what might be called or have been called External Ministers are to be unavailable for consultation, is quite apart from my view of what the intention of the Constitution is. I imagine they will always be available for consultation and discussion to the fullest extent that the Executive Council desires. As regards the question of the Liaison Officer, I imagine that can be got over very easily and that the communication between this Dáil, the Upper House, and the Senate, the Lower House can be managed quite satisfactorily even without the appointment of a separate Ministry.

Mr. SEAN MILROY

I do not want to detain the Dáil very long, but before this list of nominated members of the Executive Council is passed I might refer to one of them. That is the Ministry of Industry and Commerce. I understand there has been no change in the relation between the Ministry of Labour and the Ministry of Industry and Commerce, since the Provisional Government was inaugurated in this House. I am still of opinion that a serious blunder was made in merging these two Departments. I propose some time in the near future to initiate a discussion by motion on that and to ask the Dáil to agree to the reconstitution of the Ministry of Labour as a separate Ministry or Department. If the Government can show that what they have done is the wise thing, I am anxious to give them that opportunity; but I think they will find it very difficult to indicate that such is the case. I do not want vital factors in the life of the country, such as Industry and Commerce, to meet the same fate as the Seanad which is being put into the Museum. I am given to understand the Seanad is to be housed there. I merely wish to give notice that such is my intention. I think it is a profound mistake and one which is calculated to vitally jeopardise the most important interest of the country. That may happen if this present arrangement is continued.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

The President has nominated for the Executive Council, Mr. Kevin O'Higgins, as Vice-President and Minister for Home Affairs; General Mulcahy, Minister for Defence; Eoin MacNeill, Minister for Education; Ernest Blythe, as Minister for Local Government; Desmond Fitzgerald, Minister for External Affairs; and Joseph McGrath, as Minister for Industry and Commerce. It is necessary to get the assent of the Dáil to these nominations. Do I take it that that assent is given?

Agreed.

Mr. THOS. JOHNSON

Would the Minister say what Ministries, in his opinion, are requisite, apart from the Ministries he has already indicated?

The PRESIDENT

The Ministries I want are connected with Agriculture and the Post Office. I would certainly ask the Dáil to give us a Ministry of Fisheries. I do not anticipate the person appointed to that office will be able to show any remarkable results for a long period, but I think he would be necessary. Those are the only Ministries I know of at the moment. I have suggested an Assistant Minister for Industries and Commerce, and I would ask the Dáil to very carefully consider that matter before they reject it. It is well known that this particular Ministry has under its control a great number of services which, in our view, cannot well be distributed amongst different heads, or apportioned to different Ministries. These Ministries require co-ordination. A particular service administered by this particular Ministry would require the special attention of a particular individual. We know we have a Railway Commission, and we know that these conferences in connection with the railways take a very long time. I think I have already told the Dáil that it practically broke down the health of the Minister for Agriculture during the time he was acting as substitute Minister in the absence of Deputy McGrath. I think it will be found in the long run that particular Ministry will always require an Assistant Minister, and it would be a mistake to divide it up because you will not get the best results if you do divide it up.

Mr. THOS. JOHNSON

May I suggest that the proposal of the Minister could be quite correctly, formally and rightly dealt with by a recommendation from the Minister to the Dáil, that an assistant should be appointed? He would be in a different category from one of the external Ministers provided for in the Constitution.

The PRESIDENT

Very good.

Mr. R. WILSON

Under the terms of the Constitution seven Ministers only are allowed to be appointed members of the Executive Council. Is this Assistant Minister to be a member of the Executive Council?

The PRESIDENT

No.

Mr. WILSON

This Assistant Minister would not have the power of sitting on the Executive Council although he might be working in the same department? Is that the idea?

The PRESIDENT

Yes.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

What we next require are the terms of reference for the Committee which is to appoint the other Ministers.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

The terms of reference are not easy things to draft, and they are peculiarly difficult things to draft in any body as large as this. A small committee of two or three should be appointed to suggest terms of reference, and these terms could come before us, say, to-morrow. They should be as brief as possible, and inclusive of the range of matter to be covered.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

The Ministries suggested are Agriculture, Post Office, Fisheries, and a Minister to deal with relations between this Dáil and the Seanad, and in addition an Assistant Minister. Is the Assistant Minister independent of the 12 mentioned in the Constitution?

The PRESIDENT

No. I do not mind so long as you give him to me.

Mr. COLE

Do the Ministers suggested now exhaust all the possible Ministries? Would it be possible to have any further Ministries after that?

The PRESIDENT

If it is found desirable to create any further Ministry, I will come here and ask for it.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

It is not possible to have more than twelve Ministers under the Constitution. That is quite plain.

Mr. COLE

If the President comes down to the Dáil can he ask for more than twelve?

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

He can.

Mr. COLE

Does this list exhaust the number? If it does, I would like to know it.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Under the Constitution, when you reach the figure twelve you stop.

Mr. MILROY

He has not reached it yet. You have seven Ministers, and then there is the Postmaster-General and the Minister for Agriculture; that is nine, and the Assistant Ministers were spoken of.

Mr. GOREY

I suggest a Minister for Forestry, Reclamation and Drainage, one of the crying needs in the country. It would be a big sphere, big enough for any Ministry. I suggest that to the Government.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

Am I right in saying that these suggestions that have been put forward by the President are suggestions properly for the Committee and that the Committee will not merely have to find the names of Deputies for these Ministries, but also to name the Ministries? In other words, that the matter is not one for us to decide now, but that ultimately it is to come before the Dáil to decide when the Committee shall have reported.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

That is a matter for the decision of the Dáil. The Committee will be appointed to nominate five Deputies as Ministers. It will be quite simple.

Mr. COLE

Certain new Ministries have been suggested, and what I want to know is this: do these new positions fill the remaining five vacancies?

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Agriculture, the Post Office, and Fisheries have been suggested as Ministries. I take it that the President suggests these as full Ministries?

The PRESIDENT

Yes.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

That is, three out of the five are filled. The President suggested a Minister to deal with the Seanad; does that mean a full Minister?

The PRESIDENT

I am afraid you cannot have him a full Minister.

Mr. JOHNSON

Could not that question of the relations between the Seanad and the Dáil be discussed fully by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges?

If the views of the Ministry were submitted to the Committee, recommendations could come from that body to the Dáil, and that would simplify matters.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

It is proposed to bring before the Dáil a draft of the Standing Orders which will deal with the relations between the Dáil and the Seanad.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

I do urge that these are matters that could be very much better discussed by the Committee. Let the Committee decide what Ministries are necessary and suggest the Deputies for these Ministries. I think that should be included in the Terms of Reference. It would save a great deal of time and it would achieve a more efficient result.

Mr. BLYTHE

I am inclined to think that that should be part of the Terms of Reference. Later on these Offices will be more or less Statutory Offices and there will be a certain number of Ministries constituted by Act of Parliament; certain of them will be filled by members of the Executive Council, and certain others will be nominated by a Committee of the Dáil, and it will require some definite Act in the way of legislation if an additional Ministry is to be constituted, or if the scope of any particular Ministry is to be varied. I do not think it would be desirable to give a roving commission to the Committee.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

We require, as a matter of procedure, that a motion should be made setting out the Terms of Reference of the Committee of Dáil Eireann appointed under Article 55 of the Constitution, or in the alternative that you appoint the Committee first, as suggested, and then define its Terms of Reference.

Mr. JOHNSON

Suppose you amend that by putting in three names?

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

Deputy Johnson's suggestion is that these three, the Postmaster-General, the Minister for Agriculture, and the Minister for Fisheries, should come in now. Is the resolution itself the Terms of Reference?

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

The resolution can contain the Terms of Reference. If the Terms of Reference are not agreed on, they ought to be discussed separately, because there will be some difference of opinion with regard to the men selected on the Committee.

The PRESIDENT

If the Dáil will agree to appoint a Committee I will undertake—as it was only late last night that this matter was brought before the Cabinet—to have this matter further considered. I have not given the matter full consideration since last night. If you were to appoint a Committee in accordance with that Article of the Constitution by which they are to select Ministers for Fisheries, Post Office, and Agriculture, then to-morrow or some other time I will bring up a motion on the other matters and let the Dáil decide.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Then the names of the Ministries will be decided by the Dáil and not by the Committee?

The PRESIDENT

Yes.

Motion made and question put: "That a Committee be set up to nominate Ministers for Agriculture, Fisheries, and the Post Office."

Agreed.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

I take it, therefore, that this Committee of the Dáil, consisting of fifteen Deputies, shall in the first place make recommendations for the Ministries of Agriculture and Fisheries and the Postal Service. Such Ministers shall not be members of the Executive Council; and that the Committee shall be appointed by the single transferable vote and that the quorum of such Committee be ten.

Mr. SEAN MILROY

I suggest eleven as a quorum. An odd number would be much more desirable.

Mr. E. BLYTHE

I think so.

Mr. THOS. JOHNSON

Agreed.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

That motion is proposed by Deputy Johnson and seconded by Cathal O'Shannon. There is the question under the terms of that motion, of fixing a time for the nominations of the Committee.

Mr. W. O'BRIEN

I move that the hour be 12 o'clock to-morrow.

Mr. E. BLYTHE

I suggest that that hour is too early. It is getting late in the evening now.

Mr. T. JOHNSON

Five o'clock to-morrow.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

That is a matter for arrangement. I will take the sense of the Dáil on it. The Dáil meets to-morrow for the election of 30 members of the Seanad. The nominations must be in by five to-morrow evening. Deputies nominated for the Committee must be nominated by some Deputy and seconded.

Mr. W. O'BRIEN

Is there any necessity for such a long period? Would not nominations be received in a comparatively short time? Is it not necessary to get over these preliminaries as soon as possible?

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

I do not think the Committee can be very well rushed.

Mr. GOREY

When are the nominations for this Committee?

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

That is what we are endeavouring to agree on. The Minister for Local Government desires to have the period for nominations prolonged until 5 o'clock to-morrow evening.

Mr. BLYTHE

I think it would be much better, and I do not think there would be much gained otherwise. The election can be carried out to-morrow night, I take it.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

We cannot carry out the election until Friday. The Seanad election takes place to-morrow and the avalanche of candidates proposed by the President will mean a long count. There is, therefore, no great purpose in having the time too early to-morrow, as we cannot have the election until Friday. Nominations will be received up till 5 o'clock to-morrow evening. I will have a Ballot Paper on Friday and voting can take place at the meeting on Friday.