On this motion I want to say a word or two with regard to the proposed dissolution of the Ministry of Agriculture and the establishment of a new Ministry. It is a very short time ago since we had before us certain estimates for the Ministry of Agriculture. We passed those Estimates in Committee and they included charges connected with that portion of the Department of Agriculture which dealt with Fisheries. Within a very short time after consideration of these Estimates, a proposal was put before us to dissolve that Ministry and set up a new Ministry of Fisheries. I believe that the time will come when a Ministry of Fisheries may be justifiable. I do not think it is justifiable yet unless the Minister for Finance and the Executive Council in general is prepared to allot a very large sum of money for the purpose of the organisation of Fisheries in Ireland. The proposal is to disestablish the Ministry of Agriculture, for which Estimates have been considered, and which we are now asked formally to agree to, and establish a new Ministry without making any provision for the financing of that new Ministry. I think the position of the Fisheries and the Government's supervision of Fisheries hardly at present justifies the appointment of a Minister of Fisheries. The Minister of Fisheries must be the head of a Department, and the existence of a Department suggests that there is some kind of an organisation of the business arrangements for controlling the Fisheries of the country. I presume there is such an organisation as a Sub-Department of the Ministry of Agriculture, but no case has been made for the establishment of a new Minister of Fisheries at this stage.
DAIL IN COMMITTEE. - DEBATE ON ESTIMATES.
On a point of order, a Committee was set up and it met to-day in connection with these new Ministries, so that I think this discussion is out of order. The Dáil can reject the proposals of this Committee for new Ministers if they choose. I think this is hardly the proper time when this discussion arises. Mr. Johnson was not present, although he is a member of the Committee.
The motion is that certain moneys be granted which include the charges for Agriculture, and I presume the proposal to appoint the Ministry may be discussed, although it will arise on the Report of the Committee, which is on the Order Paper for to-morrow.
I have no doubt that the appointment of the Ministers will arise, but I am now querying the wisdom of dividing the present Ministry into two, for the reason that no justification has been given for the establishment of a new Ministry at this stage. All that has been suggested is the necessity for the new Ministry, and that was the only suggestion; no proposal and no indication was given by the President as to the policy that the Executive Council as a whole desires to pursue in respect of the Fisheries, and unless we have from the late Minister for Agriculture some explanation as to the necessity for dividing the Ministry, and the urgency for doing so, and appointing a new Ministry with a new staff, and the consequential charges for the financing of such a staff and such a Ministry, we ought not to pass this motion without some discussion and explanation. Now, to a very large extent the same arguments apply to the proposal to appoint a new Minister if it is intended he shall be a Minister, and I do not know what Vote it comes under except it comes under the Vote for Dáil Eireann, or it is perhaps an unforeseen and unprepared-for contingency. A suggestion was made that there should be appointed a Minister to act as a liaison between the Dáil and the Senate, and I take it that in one or other of the Estimates provision has been made for such an officer. Again, I want to point out that if it is intended that officer shall be a Minister, he must be the head of a Ministry unless he is a Minister without portfolio, in which case he could be a member of the Executive Council. But, assuming that the financial provision for such a Ministry is included in this volume, I would ask that some reasonable explanation be given for the desire to have such an officer appointed.
As Deputy Johnson has asked for my own view, I think I had better say what I have got to say first. Personally, I am quite clear, if my opinion is of any value to the Dáil, that there should be a Ministry of Fisheries, distinct from the Ministry of Agriculture. On the face of it there is a real good case for it, and in the interests both of Agriculture and of Fisheries. The Deputy has asked why should there be a Ministry of Fisheries.
At this stage.
At this stage, and with all respect to him he has not given any reasons why there should not, and I might as well ask why there should not be a Ministry of Fisheries.
It is you asked for the money.
I say on the face of it and at the first blush that anybody who knows anything about the Fisheries of this country and the importance of Agriculture and the rest is in favour of having a separate Ministry of Fisheries, and not having the Ministry of Fisheries merely a sub-Department of Agriculture. I take it that everyone will agree that Fisheries are developing into something almost as important as Agriculture in this country. I do not think Deputy Johnson disagrees with me in that. I think it is the common case that it should develop into something. At the present moment the trade is in an exceedingly depressed condition. It will require very much more money to develop it than has appeared for the service on the Estimate. I would not like to express an opinion, but it is possible that before the next financial year a supplementary Estimate will be required not to create an additional staff —the staff are there already; they are in the Congested Districts Board and in the Department of Agriculture—but for the development of the industry; and I think Deputy Figgis will agree—he has interested himself in this particular problem—that it is the one industry which requires a vast amount of money, compared with any other industry, to put it on its feet, and I think that the Dáil Report on Fisheries recommended that there should be a separate Ministry of Fisheries.
Hear, hear.
I feel, and I am saying this purely in the interests of the industry, that if you do not begin now—I think I heard Deputy Johnson saying some time ago, and I agree with him, that we are making important precedents now—if you do not begin now you may find it exceedingly difficult to begin later on, when the necessity is more urgent, and the necessity is urgent now. The Minister for Fisheries and his staff will be fully occupied in clearing away the debris for the next three months. He will be fully occupied, in addition, in dividing the industry, as, unfortunately, it will be necessary to divide it, between the North and South. The two big questions between the North and the South, that is, between North-East Ulster or, as they call it, Northern Ireland, and the Free State is a division of the Fisheries, a division of the industry, and the division of the Diseases of Animals Act administration. I do not think I am called upon to go into any other aspect of the case. We are agreed that ultimately it must be a separate Ministry; we are agreed that it will require a very large amount of money to develop the industry; we are agreed that it should develop into as big an industry as Agriculture, and I say, that being so, the sooner we get it done the better. And it is these considerations, and these considerations only, that forced me to advise the President, as I advised him months ago, that the present Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries should be divided and a separate Ministry created.
I would like to support the suggestion that the Ministry of Fisheries be set up at once, because I happen to live in a part of the country where the question of Fisheries is a very pressing one, and I venture to say that if the Government does not set up a Ministry of Fisheries at once there will be no fish left for them to administer over. Of course, there are two kinds of Fisheries, as everybody knows, the Maritime Fisheries and the Inland Fisheries, and the Maritime Fisheries, on account of the lack of watchfulness of strangers on our coast, on account of the fact that the only vessel which had been doing duty—the Helga—having been withdrawn, I know that foreigners are coming in and are doing untold damage to the spawning beds on the coast. As regards Inland Fisheries, Fresh Water Fisheries, tremendous damage has been done already, and I, for one, strongly support the suggestion that a Ministry of Fisheries be at once appointed, because, as I said at the beginning, if he does not begin to function at once there will be no Fisheries to administer over.
I also rise to support the appointment of this Ministry, because, as representing a constituency where a good deal of fishing is being done, and where the fishing is absolutely neglected at the moment, I believe if we put this question back for three or six months that we will be doing a grave injustice to these people, who have to earn their living by this means. As has been pointed out here, I think that the Minister, if he is appointed, will have plenty of work to do to get his Department into proper order and to have it ready when the time comes when we can find sufficient money for him to be enabled to carry on his work in a proper manner. As regards the appointment I might say, without giving away any names, that the Committee considered every aspect of the case that was put forward, and they were unanimous in stating that the appointments should be made immediately. For that reason I support it.
There were other things raised on this question besides the question of the Ministry of Fisheries. One of the other questions has not been answered from the Government side, and that was the question with regard to the other Minister, the Liaison Minister, or whatever he is to be. Now, we are all agreed that there ought to be a Ministry of Fisheries, and that there ought to be the greatest possible development of the Fisheries. I agree with the Deputy, the late Minister for Agriculture, that the question of Fisheries is one of the difficult questions in connection with the separation between the Belfast Government and the Government of the Irish Free State, but he has not yet made out the case why exactly it requires a Minister to do all these things. I do not see any reason at the moment why all this could not be done by the Department. He says the staff is there all right, and presumably the staff is getting paid, and it might require an increased staff and it might not, but why must there be a Minister? Is it possible for that Department of the Ministry for Agriculture to do the work required within the next three or four months? Why the urgent necessity for having a Ministry at the head of this Department for these four coming months, because after that the situation will be different. There is a consideration in that, and in connection with the other Ministry that is suggested, that is the Liaison Ministry, there was mentioned also a third Ministry, a Contracts Ministry. I do not know, I suppose we will not know until this Committee reports to-morrow, whether there will be such a Ministry appointed, but I am presuming for the moment that there will not be. There are other things of very great urgency and importance for which a fair case may be made out for a Ministry, a very fair case. I am thinking of health, for instance, the general national health of the people of the country. I am thinking, for instance, of a Ministry of Transport and Communications, and above all—and this now trenches a bit on the bigger policy—if I incidentally have to bring in another matter in connection with it, I want to be understood that I am not bringing in that matter simply to throw bricks at the Government, but for a quite different reason—and that is a Ministry of Reconstruction. I have been long convinced that part of the root of the trouble the State is suffering from now is that it was unable, that the old Dáil was unable, to meet the situation which faces every Government that comes out of a war, that is to say it had on its hands a certain number of soldiers who for a number of years had been engaged in nothing but destruction and war, and did not have time, and did not take into consideration how it was going to dispose of those back again into the civil population. Long before you come to the end of the present war, or even if you had no war at all, you will want reconstruction, and it will, in my opinion, require a Ministry, because it will require to be built from the foundation up. It will need to take into consideration the question of demobilisation and the question of the general national reconstruction of the State and it will require, because of the necessity of co-ordinating the various elements and questions, to be a Ministry. You are not going to start to do it when the need is just there. Now, the Ministry of Fisheries and the Ministry of Health may be a Ministry of Reconstruction too, but remember until you make an amendment in the Constitution you are confined to twelve Ministers, and, therefore, I say this is not a good time for forming a new Ministry to deal even with Fisheries. I say that there should be a great deal of money spent in the development of Fisheries, but equally we should not rush into building up Ministries now until we have got along a bit, and see what Departments exactly will require all the dignity and equipment of a separate Ministry. We have to discuss and debate all these things and try until such time as we have an amendment in the Constitution to fit into twelve separate Ministries all the Departments over which the Government has control. Therefore I say that this is not the time for forming a new Ministry, and that no case has been made why within these four months we must have a Ministry of Fisheries, and why we must have a Ministry for the other thing. Even if you require a man to be head of that Department there is no reason in the wide world, and none of us will object to it, and even if you want to dignify him with a title you can give him the title of Assistant Minister or something like that. It is the objection to the Minister that makes me oppose this. You can have a Department and make it develop all the Fisheries in Ireland, but the argument that because of the separation of the powers between the North and the South you will therefore require a Minister to do that is not convincing. No doubt an expert will be required on the job, but this is a question for the whole Ministry, and it is a boundary question, I think, rather than for an Administration Department of the Government to deal with.
What I wish to say is this, that in this question what we are really discussing is whether you should divide Agriculture and Fisheries. We seem to have reached this point: was it right to do it at present? Well, it depends on how much the Minister for Agriculture will have to do, and it depends just as much on how much the Minister for Fisheries will have to do. I am absolutely convinced, and we are all agreed upon it, that ultimately—and if the service was properly administered in the past it would be now—but ultimately it must be as big and important an item in the national economy as Agriculture. I am satisfied about that. I think anyone who has thought about the question, or knows anything about the question, will agree with me. It has been asked, why set up this Ministry? Surely we are beginning the Free State. At present the question is being dealt with by two Departments, the Agricultural Department and the Congested Districts Board, but if properly developed and co-ordinated, with a man and policy at the head of the whole thing, you could develop into something, and why not begin immediately? I suggest that is the only course. On the other hand, you have the present work of the Ministry of Agriculture dealing with the Land Commission. You know what all that means—dealing with the Department of Agriculture, dealing with the Congested Districts Board, dealing with very important matters as between the North and South, which have to be divided, and dealing, moreover, and I want the Deputy to realise this and to attend to it—dealing with the huge financial question between Ireland and England that is presented by the question of this £173,000,000 of Land Stock that is between us. No, to my mind, there is no more case for having these two Ministries at the present moment in one than there would be for the amalgamation of the Ministry of Local Government and the Ministry of Industry and Commerce—that is from experience of both—and for six months I had advised the late Commander-in-Chief and late President, Mr. Collins, that these two Ministries should be sub-divided. I have a certain amount of experience in the position, and I am perfectly satisfied it should be done now. I am equally satisfied it should be done before now. In that state of affairs, I think the right time is chosen, namely, when the first Free State Government is being set up.
I would like to say that the whole question to me is a question of perspective. We have twelve Ministers required, and the demand will come inevitably that you have a Ministry of Health, a Ministry of Transport, and probably a Ministry of Reconstruction. The claim for those is at least equally as great as the Ministry of Fisheries, and it is rather for the Ministry as a whole to decide than the head of a Department, who is sure to advocate the claims of his Department, very naturally and quite rightly; but it is a matter for the Dáil, on the advice of the Ministry as a whole, to decide the relative merits of the claims for the establishment of a Ministry of Health, a Ministry of Transport, and a Ministry of Reconstruction, and these other two Ministries that were suggested. Whether they are going to be brought into being I know not, but I submit in relation to these other things no case has been made for the establishment of this Ministry of Fisheries.
On a point of personal explanation, I do not think the Deputy is quite fair to me. He deliberately asked for my opinion in this matter, and I gave it.
I think you are perfectly right in making the case as it must appear from the point of view of the Ministry of Agriculture. I admit that, but the Ministry as a whole must consider all the Departments of the State and put them in their due relationship.
I have only to add that the Ministry as a whole did, and they got the advice which you are getting now. If Deputy Johnson does not think there is some case for reconstruction and these other things he advocated I can only say so many men so many opinions, and we never can agree on it.
I would like to urge this view, that at the present time it does not seem essential to establish this Ministry for this reason—above all things at the present time we want to conserve and develop the natural resources which will mean the life of the people. The country is in a desperate way undoubtedly in regard to the Agricultural industry, which is the chief industry of the people, and I think a perfect case has been made out for dividing these Ministries. We have a big Land Programme before us in the coming session, when the whole question of the Ministry of Agriculture and the problems that face them will be presented to the Dáil, and that Ministry should deal with them and with nothing else. From the point of view of conserving the natural resources of the country and developing them to the utmost, I believe that next to the Ministry of Agriculture the Ministry of Fisheries will help to develop the full resources of the country, and from that point of view alone I would urge the creation of this Ministry before the creation of other Ministries that undoubtedly are desirable. But all things follow from the producing of food, as food is the first necessity, the first thing that any nation has to do is to develop its food resources. I think, going on these lines, we will be going on safe and sound lines.
Motion made and question put:—"That the Dáil agree with the Committee on the said Resolutions.
Agreed.
There is the question of granting the money.