I gave notice at an earlier hour to-day of my intention to raise what I judged to be a question of very, very great importance indeed, and that is the appointment of a member of this Dáil to a salaried position in connection with the services of the Oireachtas. I desire to emphasise the words that I have been careful to choose, "a Member of this Dáil," not the particular member who was so appointed, and I chose these words carefully because the matter is not in any sense whatever, I need hardly say, personal. I think, in many ways and for many reasons, that the particular Deputy who was chosen was an excellent choice. If I did not think so I should say so, and I should say so with regard to the fact that there has been for a long time, and I hope there will be for a still longer time, a personal friendship between himself and myself. I believe that the choice is good, but I think that the principle of appointing members of an elected House to such positions to be thoroughly bad. I may say with regard to the Deputy who was chosen in that way, and I say it very sincerely, that I think him much too good to be made a lackey in the Lobbies of this Dáil, but whatever my opinion in regard to him and to his position may be, I do feel that there is a tendency displayed in this appointment which is not a good tendency. Ministers are, owing to the unfortunate circumstances of the country to-day, living out of contact with the people at large, because they are living at Government House without the opportunity of that freedom which we would all wish that they could enjoy. They probably are not fully aware of the criticisms that are prevalent in the country to-day, to which reference has already been made with regard to appointments in general. But this is an appointment of a peculiar and special kind. We know very well that in no local government body to-day would an elected Councillor be permitted to be appointed to a service in the gift of that Council, and we know very well that if any such appointment were to be made that we here would require of the Minister for Local Government that he should cancel that appointment; and yet although we would ourselves require that one of the Ministers of this Dáil should prohibit such appointment when made by local bodies, we are becoming guilty of exactly that same kind of appointment. I have hesitated before raising it, and I hesitated before raising it in this peculiar and special form, because the matter is still worse in view of the fact that these appointments are being made, in every case, from members of this Dáil, who should not be so appointed, and for members who may be, or are being, appointed, and I say it guardedly, because of their services to one of the parties of this Dáil. It is a bad precedent to have set up. It is a precedent that corrupts the very purity of the wells of public life, if it once becomes prevalent. We are establishing precedents that cannot help but prove injurious in the future, and Deputy Johnson referred, at an earlier stage of the discussions of to-day, to the fact that a large sum of money has been placed aside for the appointments in the Governor-General's establishment. Unless this matter be stopped and unless publicity be drawn to it I feel that there will be other appointments made in the Governor-General's establishment from members of this Dáil, and for services given in connection, perhaps, with votes in this Dáil. That is a thing to be denounced, and strongly denounced, and I have raised this matter because I believe that it is for the public interest that it should be raised, that it is for the public interest and for the best interests of this Dáil that this matter should be ventilated and should receive the attention that is required.
DÁIL RESUMED. - A DEPUTY'S APPOINTMENT.
There are certain times when I think one is justified in counting out the Dáil. I asked Deputy Figgis to leave this over until to-morrow night, when we could deal properly with it, and he refused, but I could have counted out the Dáil. I am glad I did not do so. We all criticised the British Government when they left their soldiers in the workhouses and I hope we are not going to follow their example. When Darrell Figgis lay in his feather bed Brennan was fighting for Ireland.
Deputy Darrell Figgis.
Well, Deputy Darrell Figgis. I agree with the proposition that members of this Dáil ought not to get jobs. I have no Government job and I am proud of it, but if we are going to forget the men who made it possible for us to meet here to-day, then we ought to be classified with the British, who sent their soldiers to the workhouses. If Deputy Figgis stands for that, let him, but I will not. I do not know if I am entitled to refer to the fact that Deputy Figgis was drawing a salary from this Government. I do not know if that interferes with his position in the Dáil; at least he has not resigned, and Deputy Brennan has. I do not know if he is drawing it yet. I believe he is, but I may be wrong. If any Deputy got up here and said that Deputy Figgis was drawing a salary from the Government he would be one of the first to object, but I say that Brennan has been fighting for us, and doing good fighting, and if we are going to turn him down and send him to the workhouse I will not stand it.
I rise to make a personal statement in view of what Deputy McCarthy has said. I am not drawing any salary whatever. I was not appointed under this Dáil. I was appointed Chairman of the Constitution Committee, and that office expired very soon after this Dáil assembled. I have also made it perfectly clear that I was not raising this question in respect of Deputy Brennan. I do not think it would be exactly right to describe his position in this Dáil as a position in a workhouse, although I believe we are attempting to get some work done.
It is with reluctance that I intervene at all here. Deputy Figgis, in the course of his remarks, expressed his profound respect for Mr. Brennan. He alluded to the great personal friendship existing between himself and Mr. Brennan, and in the next breath he referred to Mr. Brennan as a lackey in the Lobby of this Dáil. I am surprised at Deputy Figgis. He also referred to the fact, or what he stated to be a fact, that the Government, because of its position, was out of touch with the feeling of the people in the country on these matters. Well, I think that if the Government be out of touch with the feeling of the people of the country on these matters, the Government must also be out of touch with the majority of the Deputies in this Dáil, and consequently must have no support from this Dáil. I do not think, therefore, that Deputy Figgis can possibly be correct when he says the Government does not know the feeling of the people of the country on these matters. I think before any Deputy in the Dáil, much less the Deputy who has a certain amount of notoriety, such as Deputy Figgis has, would refer to corruption, he should hesitate and think seriously. It is the first time that any Deputy has raised in this Dáil the charge of corruption, and I say that if a Deputy believes that the Government is engaged in practices of corruption, he owes to the public a certain duty, and should discharge that duty, and that duty is to bring his position in the Dáil before those who sent him here.
I rather gather that Deputy Figgis's point was that it would open a Government of a political party to such a charge if such precedents were set and followed, but my difficulty in this case arises from the difficulty of understanding what office Mr. Brennan has been appointed to, and what right the Government had to make the appointment. I think that the principle enunciated by Deputy Figgis is a right one, and I leave it at that; but another principle is involved, whether in a matter of the relations between the two Houses the appointment of a servant of this Dáil or a servant of the Seanad or the Oireachtas is the gift of the Government. It is a question that affects the rights and privileges of the Oireachtas. We must not allow it to continue that the Government is superior to the Oireachtas and that it has the appointments of persons who are under control of the Oireachtas. I think this particular appointment is a matter that ought to have been left to the discretion of the Oireachtas, or some servant of the Oireachtas. If the appointment is of a subordinate character it rightly might have been left to his superior officer, who is a direct servant of the Oireachtas. In this case I am not sure whether the appointment is that of a servant of the Seanad. I rather gather that is so, but in such a case surely the Seanad has the right to refuse to accept that appointment. It is an appointment in the hands of the Dáil itself. If it is the appointment of a person to serve the joint Parliament of the two Houses in unison, then it should be the decision of the Houses and not of the Executive Council, so that there are two issues involved in this discussion. I think it is well that we should have some understanding, so as to prevent mistakes being made. We all realise how easy it is at this stage of our life to make blunders, but if we can correct them in the early stages, then it is well that we should draw attention to them to prevent repetition.
I would like to know if Deputy Johnson objects to an Army man having preference for positions. That is what I want to get at.
I am not raising that question at all.
This is the very question. We are going to see that our fighting men are going to be placed properly.
Now I understand where we are. All members of this Dáil who have been in the Army and through the fight are to be placed in positions. Is that the proposition?
No.
How soon is the Dáil to be deprived of the services of those members who have gone through the fight? How soon are we going to have the elections to replace those members who have been appointed from this Dáil? How soon are we going through with the proposition of Deputy McCarthy?
That is not the proposition at all, but I do say that preference must be given to fighting men who made it possible for us to meet here.
As I understand the making of these appointments, they are appointments of the Executive Council, and I made that appointment. I believe I was right in doing so, and the Deputy who raised the question, I think, having regard to the extraordinary notions he had in regard to the purity of public life, ought to have resigned the position that he held in the days of the late Provisional Government, which was responsible to this Dáil. Even though this Dáil may have changed its name or changed its character, to some extent, he was nevertheless the servant of this Dáil when he held that appointment, although an Independent member of it. Otherwise, I can say, from my experience of public life— and I think I have more of it than the Deputy—very much more of it—it comes certainly very badly from him. I was Minister for Local Government for a number of years, and I conformed to the regulations and the orders and the laws of local government as they existed, and I insisted on other people conforming to those laws, and it is not in the power of this Dáil or of the Minister for Local Government, or of anybody else, to question or to interfere with the liberty of the local authority, as long as that local authority conforms to the rules regulations, orders and laws under which local government is administered. It is not by virtue of your independence or of your character as a member of this Dáil, that you would be entitled to question any act of local government. Then as for any infringement of the law, there is no law at present in force regarding the conduct or the privileges or anything else concerning the members of this Dáil, or preventing them from taking office, should office be given to them. I selected this officer from my knowledge of him, and from information regarding his suitability for that office, and it is not the office of a lackey. It is very incorrect, very wrong, and very insulting for any member of this Dáil to call a man occupying that position, who is a great friend of his, a lackey. What is his position? At this moment he is the one connecting link between the Seanad and the Dáil. It is part of my responsibility to see that there is a connecting link. Am I to sit here and wait until some person asks me: "What are you going to do about that"? My idea of my duty is to set up machinery for carrying out the administration of both this Dáil and the Seanad, if there is no other machinery set up to deal with it. I have not interfered with the rights or privileges of this Dáil, or any other one, and I think it is my duty, if I know anything about my duty, to appoint that officer. I know that at the last election that gentleman did not intend to present himself for election. During the war he rendered great service, and his family rendered great service, too. Even at this moment his mother has not a house to live in by reason of attacks. This gentleman at one time occupied the position of Clerk of a Board of Guardians and Rural District Council. He knows all about public business, and will be in a position to discharge the duties of his office in a thoroughly competent manner. If this Dáil does not provide us with a Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry, it is the usual thing, as I understand it, between both Houses to have at least some connecting link. I made the appointment in the full and firm belief that the man I appointed to the position was a person well qualified for that position, and no person could say this is a job. I must appoint somebody. I know full well every appointment I make will be criticised. That is my responsibility and I will have to bear the brunt of that when I stand again for election. The Deputy tells me that I am out of touch. I go out whenever I have time. I occasionally attend Church. I suppose the Deputy will not be surprised at that. At early and at late hours I often walk through the streets. Do not think I am cut off from association with the people outside. I meet a large number of people in all walks of life. I am not out of touch, and if I were there are intelligent members in my own party who would very quickly bring me to task if I make any serious mistakes. I make mistakes; everyone of us makes mistakes. I do not care who attacks me at any time during my life. I believe it was a good appointment and I am perfectly satisfied with it, and the fact that he happened to be a member of this Dáil does not concern me. We have reduced our majority by one, if you go into it as a party question. I will not look at it as a party issue. I believe the Dáil is honest enough to consider the question on its merits, and it is not a question of the popularity of the Government and whether it is to last or not.
The Dáil adjourned at 9 o'clock until 3 o'clock on Thursday, 14th December.