I beg to move Section 15. It re-enacts the power given by a decree of the Second Dáil to raise an extra penny rate for the purpose of giving instruction in Irish.
DÁIL IN COMMITTEE. - THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT (TEMPORARY PROVISIONS) BILL, 1923—Committee resumed.
(1) The Council of any County or Urban District, in addition to any existing power, may, in the local financial year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924, raise in the manner provided by Section 19 of the Agriculture and Technical Instruction (Ireland) Act, 1899, a sum equal to a rate of one penny in the pound on the rateable value mentioned in that Section.
(2) All moneys raised under this section shall be applied for the purpose of providing instruction in the Irish language in the county or urban district.
(3) Save as otherwise provided by this section, all the provisions of the said Act shall apply to all moneys raised under this section.
Tá súil agam go nglacfar leis an leasú seo. Tá fhios ag na Teachtai gur chaith cuid de na Chomhairlibh roinnt airgid ar theagasg na Gaedhilge agus is mian liom go n-deanfaidh an Dáil caitheadh an airgid sin a chur i bhfeidhm do réir dlighe, ar eagla go n-deanfadh aon duine aon ghearán in a aghaidh. Ní gadh dhom a thuille a rádh acht iarraidh ar an Aire glacadh leis an leasú.
I beg to move to insert the following Sub-section:—"(4) Any moneys raised and expended by the Council of any County or Urban District for the purpose of providing instruction in the Irish language in the county or urban district, prior to the passing of this Act, shall be deemed to have been lawfully raised and expended."
The intention of the amendment in my name is to regularise the expenditure that has been incurred in the past on the teaching of Irish, and to make sure that there will be no difficulty as regards the moneys that have already been spent. I wish it were possible that Councils could spend more than they have been spending on the teaching of Irish.
Glacaim leis an leasú.
Amendment agreed to.
Question put: "That Section 15, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
Agreed.
SECTION 16.
(1) The Council of any County or County Borough may assist by means of exhibitions, scholarships, bursaries, payment of fees or otherwise, any students or intending students at any approved school in Saorstát Eireann who are ordinarily resident in such County or Borough and who satisfy the Council that they are qualified to profit by instruction in such school and are in need of assistance, and who also satisfy such tests of ability as shall be prescribed in pursuance of this section.
(2) An approved school shall be such school, either extern or residential, for the giving of secondary education or the giving of instruction or training in agriculture, forestry, trade, commerce, domestic economy, teaching, or any other subject of a vocational character as may be approved of by order of the Minister for Education.
(3) The tests of ability to be satisfied by students under this section shall be prescribed in a scheme to be formulated for the purposes of this section by the Council of the County or County Borough in accordance with rules to be made by the Minister for Education, and no such scheme shall have any effect unless and until approved by the Minister for Education.
(4) Any expenses incurred by the Council of a County or County Borough under this section shall be paid, in the case of the Council of a County as a county-at-large charge, and in the case of the Council of a County Borough as expenses of the Council of the Borough in the execution of the Public Health (Ireland) Acts, 1878 to 1919, but the amount raised by such Council in any year for the purpose of this section shall not exceed the amount which would be produced by a rate of 1d. in the pound or such higher rate as the Council, with the consent of the Minister may fix.
I beg to move Section 16, which confirms power which was given by a decree of the second Dáil, and which was acted on by a certain number of Councils.
I beg to move amendment No. 2, to insert the following sub-section:—"(4) Any moneys raised and expended by the Council of any County or Urban District for the purposes specified in this section prior to the passing of this Act shall be deemed to have been lawfully expended." The reasons are the same as those advanced by Deputy O'Shannon.
Amendment put and agreed to.
Question: "That Section 16, as amended, stand part of the Bill" put and agreed to.
SECTION 17.
(1) The several sums of money specified in the first column of the Third Schedule to this Act which were advanced to the respective local authorities on the respective dates specified in the second and third column respectively of the said Third Schedule opposite to such sums respectively are hereby declared to be repayable on or before the respective dates specified in the fourth column of the said Third Schedule opposite such sums into the Exchequer of Saorstát Eireann by the respective Local Authorities to whom the said sums were respectively advanced as aforesaid.
(2) The repayment of the several sums aforesaid pursuant to the foregoing sub-section shall for all purposes (including the auditing of the accounts of the Local Authority) be legal and valid payments.
I beg to move Section 17, which deals with certain sums of money which were lent by the Exchequer of the Dáil to certain Local Authorities at the time when they were in very low water, and this is simply to make provision for the repayment, as will be seen in the next clause, as certain Councils have repaid the money, but others have not yet repaid.
Question: "That Section 17 stand part of the Bill" put and agreed to.
SECTION 18.
The payment of the several sums of money specified in the first column of the Fourth Schedule to this Act by the respective Local Authorities on the respective dates and to the respective persons specified respectively in the second, third, and fourth columns of the said Fourth Schedule, are hereby declared to be and always to have been for all purposes (including the auditing of the accounts of the Local Authority) valid and legal payments.
I beg to move Section 18, which legalises the repayments which have been made.
Question: "That Section 18 stand part of the Bill" put and agreed to.
SECTION 19.
The Minister may by Order do any of the matters following, that is to say:—
(1) apply to any public body established under or in pursuance of this Act or any County Scheme any existing enactment relating to County or District Councils or Boards of Guardians with such modifications as he shall deem necessary.
(2) make such adaptations of any existing enactment relating to any matter dealt with or affected by this Act as appear to him necessary or expedient for carrying into effect this Act or the County Schemes made thereunder.
(3) make rules for carrying this Act or the County Scheme made thereunder into effect and in particular for regulating—
(i.) the estimating and raising of the expenses of administering a County Scheme;
(ii.) the accounts, audit and annual estimates of any public body established by a County Scheme;
(iii.) the transfer of the property and liabilities of any public body abolished under this Act;
(iv.) any adjustment of rights, duties and liabilities required for the purposes of this Act;
(v.) generally for carrying this Act into effect.
I beg to move Section 19. This is a Section which is necessary to give power to make rules and adaptations that will be necessary for the carrying out of the provisions of the Bill. In so far as some of the adaptations that will be made would be quasi-legislative I would be prepared at the next Stage to bring in an amendment that all Orders made under this Section, at any rate, should be laid on the Table of the Dáil.
I am authorised by Deputy Day to ask for permission to withdraw Amendment No. 3.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question: "That Section 19 stand part of the Bill" put and agreed to.
SECTION 20.
In this Act, unless the context otherwise requires:—
The expression "Local Authority" includes a county council, county borough council, urban district council, rural district council, board of guardians, the town commissioners of any town, and any other public body which may be established by any County Scheme to perform any of the functions of the above-named bodies, and any committee or joint committee of any of the said authorities.
The word "Minister" means—
(i) as respects any act, matter or thing done or not done before the passing of this Act, any one of the persons following, that is to say:—
(a) the Minister for Local Government;
(b) the person who after the 6th day of December, 1922, and before the appointment of the Minister for Local Government was for the time being exercising the functions of the Minister for Local Government;
(c) the Minister for Local Government of the late Provisional Government of Ireland;
(d) the person who before the establishment of the Provisional Government aforesaid was for the time being exercising the functions of the Minister for Local Government under the authority of Dáil Eireann; and
(ii) as respects any act, matter or thing to be done after the passing of this Act, the Minister for Local Government.
The word "County" includes County Borough, and the expression "County Council" includes County Borough Council.
The word "enactment" includes orders, rules and regulations and local acts as well as public and general acts.
The expression "existing enactments" means enactments in force in Saorstát Eireann at the date of the passing of this Act.
I beg to move Section 20, which is a definition Section. I think that, perhaps, there is a little flaw in it and it may be necessary to make some amendments at a future Stage. Either there was a misapprehension in the drafting of it in regard to the question of an interval between the going out of office of the Minister for Local Government of the Provisional Government and the definite appointment of the Minister for Local Government of Saorstát Eireann or else it was a mistake arising from the fact that when this particular Clause was being drafted it was believed that the Ministry's Bill would have been before the Dáil and, perhaps, would have been given effect to. I think it would be necessary to make a small change in the drafting of that. The necessity for the Clause is to give sanction to the acts that were done before the Treaty and before the coming into being of Saorstát Eireann by the Minister who was exercising his functions under the authority of Dáil Eireann.
I do not know whether it is the usual phraseology, but it strikes a lay reader rather oddly that we should bring such a clause as this: "The word Minister means:—(i.) as respects any act, matter or thing done or not done before the passing of this Act, any one of the persons following, that is to say:—(a) The Minister for Local Government.” That is rather comprehensive: “a thing done or not done.” I take it it has a legal meaning, but having drawn attention to it perhaps the Minister will consider whether some other phraseology would not cover his intention.
"Omitted" seems to be the word that the Deputy is looking for.
It is not a very complimentary definition of the Minister, I think.
Apart from that there is an amendment to add before Section 20 a new Section, and I do not know whether I am in order in moving it. I suppose I am not in order as I have no specific authority from either Deputy Davin or Deputy Day.
Deputy Day is in the Dáil.
I beg to move amendment No. 4:—
"Before Section 20, to add the following new Section:—
"Every Order made by the Minister under Sections 11, 13, and 19 of this Act, and every Rule made by the Minister for Education under Section 16 of this Act, shall be laid before each House of the Oireachtas as soon as may be after it is made, and if a resolution is passed by each House of the Oireachtas within the next twentyone days on which each House has sat annulling such Order or Rule, such Order or Rule shall be annulled accordingly, but without prejudice to the validity of anything previously done thereunder."
The object of this amendment is to ensure that Orders issued under Section 11, 13 and 19, which should now be 11, 14 and 19— and I think there should be added also Section 4—shall be laid upon the Table for 21 days to ensure that the Dáil shall have an opportunity of disallowing any such Order, if necessary. There are so many suggestions in the Bill for giving permission to the Minister to make Orders of a very comprehensive and important character that it seems necessary there should be some provision made for such Rules and Orders to be laid on the Table. I do not know whether the Minister has anything to say on the matter regarding accepting this or not.
I could not accept it as it stands. I have already agreed in regard to Section 4 that an Order confirming the scheme should be laid on the Table of the Dáil and that provision should be made for its publication. I quite accept the view that Orders made under Section 19 ought to be laid on the Table of the Dáil, but I am not inclined to agree that Orders under Section 11 should be laid on the Table. Heretofore this power of appointing Commissioners has been exercised as an Executive Act and it has not been necessary to do anything that would be equivalent to laying the Orders on the Table of the Dáil. I think if the Minister were exceeding his powers in this direction he should be met by a frontal attack. I would not be inclined to accept that nor yet in regard to Section 16. I think that that would be merely an executive act of the Minister for Education which would have no sort of legislative change and I do not think should be required to be laid on the Table.
I think the important exception that the Minister makes is in regard to Section 11, that is to say, an Order which may dissolve any local authority.
I would not be inclined to accept it. Certainly at the moment I am all against it. I think that this power existed in the past in regard to a very large number of local bodies— that is Poor Law Guardians—and no such formality was required, and I do not think that any case has been made out by anybody to whom I was talking for any such formality in the present case. I think it is a question for the exercise of the ordinary executive powers of the Minister. I do not think that it is one of the things that is properly a matter that ought to be laid on the Table of the Dáil. There are things that are clearly of such a character where there are rules being made or the adaptation of enactments or anything of that sort. These are clearly matters that it is proper to lay on the Table of the Dáil. But other actions of an executive character are part of the ordinary administration of the Minister's office, and he should have to answer for them as part of the ordinary carrying on of his duties. I do not think this is a power that is likely to be exercised very largely. But where it is to be exercised he must, for instance, select very reputable people to carry on the work of the Commission. I think it would be almost impossible to get any man of the standing required to take on the work of Commissioner in any locality if he did not certainly think that he would be able to go on with that work—probably unpopular and difficult work at present—of a Commissioner in any locality, but if he was told that he was going in for six months, and would be allowed to do certain work, he may take it. But he would be unlikely to take up the office if it was to be subject to annulment. Then I think the position of a Minister in dealing with authorities would be extremely difficult. If the Minister was forced to close down a local authority—if his Order dissolving that local authority were to be annulled— I do not think the Minister could continue in office. I think this is a case that is to be met definitely by moving in this Dáil to have a new Minister.
That is to be done after the act. We could imagine a Minister acting under the authority of this section, not only dissolving a local authority and putting a Commissioner in charge, but ordering a new election, or transferring the property and the several powers and duties of such local authority to any body or person or persons he shall think fit. If you are going to give specific authority to the Minister to transfer the property of any local authority as he shall think fit to any person or persons then the only remedy is to come after that transfer has been made and impeach the Minister. Well, that is not a very satisfactory remedy to the local authority whose property may have been transferred. I suggest that the power that is sought to be given in this section is much more than he has argued for. The property of a local authority might be the chairs and tables in the Council Chamber, or the money, and it may be transferred as the Minister thinks fit to any person or persons. It is a far stretch of the imagination that anybody who would be trusted with the administration of Local Government will exercise powers in that way; but when we specifically grant those powers without any check whatever it seems to me we are exceeding our functions; and surely some kind of notice to the Legislature is required, and an opportunity to check the act before the act is committed.
I think the power must be read subject to Sub-section 5 of Section 11, which says: "If at any time after the local authority has been dissolved under this section, the Minister may, by Order, cause a new election of members of such local authority to be held, and upon the completion of such new election all the property, powers and duties of the dissolved local authority shall vest in the body so elected, notwithstanding that the same may have been transferred by the Minister." So that it is quite clear that the power of transfer is simply power that is required to give the body of Commissioners, or if it should happen—I find in the old days it used to happen—to an adjoining local authority the powers for the time being. It is the only way for that authority to carry on and to use the property.
This is quite the most serious section, surely, that would require the submission of Orders before the Legislature. The Minister defends the attitude he has taken in this matter by stating that he considers the powers involved in this section constitute ordinary executive acts. Well, if the word "ordinary " is to be used in this connection surely it is a very wide latitude to give to the word "ordinary. " I think it is an extraordinary act to supersede a local body in the way required here. But look at the powers conferred in this section. Take the last sub-section, 6, "The Minister may from time to time by Order"—such Order, be it remembered, not being submitted to the Dáil at all—"do all such things and make all such regulations as in his opinion shall be necessary for giving full effect to any Order made by him under this section." I venture to say that that is just about as wide a power as it would be possible to confer on any one single person or any one single office. And remember this, Deputy Johnson speaks about impeaching the Minister when the act was too late. What is he to be impreached for? It is impossible to impeach him once the Legislature has passed this section empowering him to do these things, because he can afterwards come to the Legislature and say that all he has done is justified, because all he has done he has done according to the powers which the Legislature conferred on him. He is removed from all sense of criticism by the powers given here. It is now, and not at a subsequent date, that this matter should be taken into revision. I urge, as I urged once before on this particular section, that this is really a matter where it is in the interests, not only of the Legislature that such order should lie on the Table, and be open for revision or supercession as the case may be, but it is equally in the interests of the Minister himself. He would be in a very much stronger position in setting aside any local authority if in his doing of that act he had not merely the wide and general powers conferred under a legislative act, but had the specific authority of the Legislature for the doing of that particular act. It would be in his protection as well as in the protection of the Legislature. I am extremely sorry he has found himself unable to accept the amendment, because I think it was reasonable and desirable, and I venture to think if there be any one section that should require the particular and ordinary procedure outlined in the amendment it is this section rather than any other section.
Mr. O'HIGGINS
I do not think that we ought to be misled by Deputy Figgis's skilful play on the words "ordinary" and "extraordinary." It is, I grant, not an ordinary matter, I am glad to say, that local authorities should prove themselves so utterly false to their trust, or so utterly incompetent to perform the duties attaching to their representative positions that such action as the closing down and appointment of a Commissioner would be necessary. That is not an ordinary thing, and consequently it has never become an ordinary thing that the consequential action would be taken. But it is quite an ordinary or natural or routine thing that such action should be taken when and if called for. It is a proper thing. It is the barest justice to the ratepayers, whose money these people are handling under a stewardship or trusteeship, that such action should be taken, and taken promptly, by the responsible central authority. To say that there is no means for impeaching the Minister if this power is wrongly exercised, exercised in circumstances and conditions which, in the judgment of the Dáil, do not justify it, is saying a thing which is not. The Dáil can, of course, call in question and review and criticise to the point of forcing resignation the conduct of a particular Minister in the performance of his office. It can always be done, as the Minister for Local Government has said, by a frontal attack, by a vote of no confidence, setting out in plain terms the charges which are to be made against the particular Minister concerned, but this is, as the Minister for Local Government has said, an executive act. This idea of laying Orders on the Table of the Dáil or any Parliament is a kind of silent legislation—that things would come up of not sufficient importance really to justify debates, and yet somehow the acquiescence or approval of the Dáil ought to be secured. There is a good deal of minor legislation done in that way by laying Orders on the Table, it being open to any Deputy to object and to raise a debate if he thinks a debate is warranted. That is silent or passive legislation, but this is an executive act which falls well within the duties of a Minister to perform, and perform promptly, when and if, in his opinion and the opinion of his Department, it is called for.
In justice to the ratepayers it is not a thing there should be any unnecessary delay about, and it should be taken on a Minister's responsibility, and he should be prepared to face the Dáil at any time and say he acted on the responsibility attaching to his office; that he stood for and stood by that particular act, while it would be open to the Dáil to indict him on a vote of no confidence, if, in its collective opinion, it believed he exercised his powers improperly, or with a lack of discretion that should normally attach to a Minister. I hold then that that particular action outlined in Section 11 is an executive one, attaching to the Minister rather than one for which any specific authority of the whole Parliament and the collective wisdom of the whole Parliament had to be sought. It is not a matter of legislation; it is not a matter of making new rules. It is a matter of taking definite action for the protection of the ratepayers, an executive act rather than a legislative act, which the position and the responsibility and the discretion that is supposed to attach to a Minister, whose appointment has been endorsed by the Dáil, ought to be sufficient to cover.
I am afraid the first part of the argument of the Minister for Home Affairs would justify the deletion of any rule, any provision in any Bill that Orders should be laid on the Table. For instance, we have in Section 19 the following: "The Minister may by Order do any of the matters following, that is to say, make such adaptations of any existing enactment relating to any matter dealt with or affected by this Act, as appear to him necessary or expedient."
Mr. O'HIGGINS
That is legislation.
It is legislation?
Mr. O'HIGGINS
Yes, in effect.
The Minister makes a distinction where there is to be legislation by Order, that it should be laid on the Table, and that where there are executive acts they should not be laid on the Table. Is that the distinction the Minister draws.
Mr. O'HIGGINS
Roughly, yes.
I hope that will be borne in mind in drawing up Bills in future, as it is rather notable that in a number of Bills that have come forward the provisions for laying Orders on the Table have been omitted until discussion has directed attention to the omission. I am not sure whether I understand the Minister in Charge of the Bill aright: am I to understand that he is prepared to lay Orders upon the Table in connection with Sections 4, 14, and 19?
Section 4 and Section 19.
Well, I suppose there is nothing more to be said. The argument in favour of laying Orders, dissolving a local Council and setting up a new Council, transferring authority from one Council to another, deciding upon the election of a new Council for as many local authorities as he may think fit to dissolve, is a very great power to leave in the hands of Ministers. It is altogether too great a power, as it practically means the annulling of the Local Government Acts and setting up new authorities. In view of the Minister's promise to accept the amendment in so far as two of the Sections are concerned. I suppose there is nothing to be done but accept them.
I was inclined to support the larger part of this amendment until I heard the speech of the Minister for Home Affairs. There is unquestionably a very marked distinction between a clause of the type of Clause 19 and one of those others mentioned in the amendment, because it is a question of adopting an enactment or applying an enactment, and inasmuch as that, as pointed out by the Minister, is in effect the creation of legislation so far as regards the particular thing in view, it should of necessity be submitted for review to this Dáil, which is in the first instance, at any rate, the chief Chamber of the Parliament of the Free State. I think that Deputy Johnson has overlooked in this particular Section 10 that the Minister for Local Government is to order a local inquiry, and it may be I misread the subsequent sub-sections when I interpret them to mean that all these things he has to do are to be consequent upon the report of the local inquiry. Consequently, if that is so, it is not an autocratic act of the Minister in the exercise of executive functions, but an act done practically by and with the advice of a Committee of Inquiry that has reported in that sense. I may misread it, because if one turns to section 11, sub-section 1 says "the Minister may at any time, if he think fit, order a local inquiry." Sub-section 2 says "if and whenever the Minister is satisfied after the holding of such local inquiry." There can be no doubt about that—"That the duties of a local authority are not being duly and effectually discharged by such local authority." Here is where a possible ambiguity arises: "Or a local authority wilfully neglects to comply with any lawful order, direction or regulation." It is just possible to read that to mean that the Minister may, if he think fit, decide that this has occurred, and act accordingly. It is possible also to read it—or, if you like, misread it—as after the holding of such a local inquiry. On principle I should object to investing a Minister, however admirable, with autocratic powers, and more especially with regard to the exercise of the powers of the local authority, inasmuch as the local authority are the elected representatives of their people, and must be deemed, except in presence of very satisfactory evidence, to be carrying out their duties and discharging their trusts in relation to their own electorate; but if an inquiry is directed, and held, and reports unfavourably to them, that essentially alters the case. As regards the impeachment of a Minister, I think we need not waste any time upon that. Such a fancy performance is not likely to come within our range, and certainly not within the lifetime of any of us who are here. The amendment is particularly faulty, I think, in including Section 16 within its scope, because it is manifestly undesirable that the rules made by the Ministry of Education in respect of educational tests—tests of ability—should be laid upon the table of the Dáil to undergo debate. They are not, and they could not be, of such a nature as to require the discussion of the Dáil. It would not be possible to carry out the administration of an Educational Office if matters of that kind in the ordinary routine of its work had to be suspended for 21 days until, say, a full dress debate with regard to some of the standards had been carried out in the Dáil. The acceptance of the amendment by the Minister, in so far as regards Sections 4 and 19, seems to be quite satisfactory.
I think the statement the Minister for Home Affairs has made is one of some importance to this assembly. It seems to me intellectually a good deal more interesting than it is practicably possible. It rather reminds me of a certain type of scientific treatise that sometimes one comes across, in which it is supposed that the heart of every mystery is satisfactorily unravelled when the author has managed successfully to classify all the forms in which it has appeared. He gives us a definition in which acts that might be undertaken under the responsibility of this legislature, appear in three forms—legislation, silent legislation, and executive action. Ordinary legislation is put before us in the form of Bills. Silent legislation is put before us in the form of Orders that lie upon the Table of the Dáil. Executive action, however grave or however minute, is a matter that need not come before the previous cognisance of the Dáil. I am not prepared to challenge the statement in respect of what has already been done by the Dáil; but if we go into the legislature of the Dáil and take all the cases in which it has been mentioned that Orders shall lie upon the Table, it will be found that they do include certain graver forms of executive action. I think that they should include those graver forms and that it should not be assumed that because a matter is strictly, according to the classification given, an executive matter rather than a matter for silent legislation—and in practice they are hard to distinguish—it should not be brought to the previous cognisance of the Dáil. Because a matter is supposed to be a purely executive action, although it may be very grave, or so grave as to require the supercession of people who have been elected by a local authority in due and correct form—a matter of executive importance of that kind should, I suggest, be brought to the previous cognisance of the Dáil in the interests of the local body, this Dáil, and the Minister. I would be sorry if that classification were to be passed without some kind of query.
Is it the position that a portion of this amendment is withdrawn in so far as it refers to anything except Sections 4 and 19.
I would prefer to bring in an amendment to cover the whole matter of Section 4, and then an amendment under 19.
In view of the Minister's statement, I will withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question: "That Section 20 stand part of the Bill, put and agreed to.
SECTION 21.
I move Section 21:—"(1) This Act may be cited as the Local Government (Temporary Provisions) Act, 1923; (2) this Act shall continue in force up to the 31st day of March, 1924, and shall then expire." Section 21 is the title of the clause limiting the duration of the Act.
Question: "That Section 21 stand part of the Bill," put and agreed to.
FIRST SCHEDULE.
I move the First Schedule, which contains the various schemes. I do not think it is necessary to say very much with regard to it.
What is the proposal? Are we to go through the schedules county by county?
The whole schedule has been moved.
I asked this question because a great many complaints have come from different counties dealing with the plans adopted in the scheme for the closing down of hospitals. I think before we pass the schedule, we ought to have from the Minister some understanding of what his intention is with regard to those schedules, with regard to the schemes and the modification of the schemes which he has now power—or, rather, will have power—to insure. I have, for instance, complaints from the Callan district regarding the closing of a local district hospital. The claim there is that the people are unanimous in favour of retaining this hospital as being necessary for the district, and especially for the poor people in the district. There are similar complaints from other parts, and I think we ought to have some indication from the Minister as to whether he is in agreement with the decision of counties generally to close down the district hospitals and to centralise those hospitals. I am not going to deal with any specific case. The Athy hospital was mentioned the other day. There are other hospitals under consideration— Mountmellick, for instance. There is a great deal of complaint with regard to closing down all those hospitals, and instances are adduced of where patients have actually been killed by a journey over bad roads and mountains from the local hospital, which has been closed or suspended, to the central hospital which is substituted. I think, before we pass from those schedules, we should have from the Minister some declaration of how he is going to adapt those schemes— whether he proposes to make them conform to a particular plan, whether he intends the closing down of so many of those small local hospitals, or what other proposals he is going to make in the matter. I leave it to any members from the country districts concerned to deal with their own cases, but I urge that we should have some indication from the Minister of what the general policy is with regard to the provision of hospitals in the counties.
There is one point with regard to those schedules which I wish to bring to the attention of the Minister. I think it should be revised, as it is a grave matter. It is a Section dealing with the Tirconaill scheme, where it says that:—"No person shall be eligible for admission to County Hospital unless resident in the County for at least three months preceding date of application for admission. Admission to be on a signed authority from a Medical Doctor or a member of County Hospital Committee, save in accident and emergency cases, when the Visiting Surgeon, Visiting Doctor, or Matron will have discretionary power." That is to say, that the Visiting Surgeon, the Visiting Doctor or the Matron will have discretionary power to admit in cases of accidents and emergencies. But they will only have power to admit, according to the clear statement of this Section, if the person has been resident in the county for at least three months preceding the date of application for admission. That means that if some person, a travelling vagrant or otherwise, in the county were to be attacked with a sudden illness, or meet with an accident, it would be impossible to let that person into the hospital, even though he or she were on the point of death. That is an exceedingly drastic provision, that I had hoped would have been impossible in this country, and I suggest that it be deleted.
Reference has been made to the hospital at Callan, in the county I represent. I do not know what are the facts, or what is the correspondence that Deputy Johnson has got, but it will be well to know at the beginning that Callan is the nearest centre to the central hospital. It is also on the best road, and the reason it has taken the stand it has taken might not be altogether, perhaps, in the public interest. It is true that there are a certain number in favour of having an hospital there, but it is also true that a big section of the community who have not spoken favour the central hospital. As a matter of fact, all the rest of the county favoured this scheme. People have to travel from Ross, Waterford and Urlingford, and in the north, in the Castlecomer area, and go longer distances, over worse roads, than the Callan people have to go. If it were not for the particular Medical Officer they have in Callan at present, there would not be any trouble about the hospital there. They would not want an hospital, but they happen to have an exceptionally good man, who is the cause of this demand that is made. and also, perhaps, owing to the fact that it means the expenditure of some money in the town. The Minister has more details than I have. I thought this matter was settled, but I find now that it has been opened up again. It ought to be settled.
The aim of the schemes is to have one good hospital in each county, a hospital much better equipped and better run than there has been as a rule in any county heretofore, and to have in addition to that such district or cottage hospitals as may prove to be necessary. There have not been, in general, cottage and district hospitals heretofore. There have been workhouse infirmaries, and these have been abolished. Now it is very difficult to accept as being bona fide the local demands that would come for an hospital in any district. Very frequently you have agitations worked up by interested parties because the expenditure on the institutions means the spending of money in the town in which it is situated. In this regard the policy has been to centralise and to abolish the workhouse infirmaries, and to set up a central hospital and to have it clearly demonstrated that in any particular district in which a demand was made for a district hospital, that there was really need for it, having regard to the expenditure that would be involved in setting one up. It is a matter for really testing the ground and for moving along slowly before putting up district hospitals or cottage hospitals where the interests of the sick of the neighbourhood clearly demand it, but doing it with such care as not to be rushed into quite unnecessary expenditure by these spurious demands that will arise from this district and that district all over the country for the provision of an hospital in the particular town or village concerned. I have come across cases in districts in which there have been no hospitals for years, and when the amalgamation scheme was going through they thought that there was a chance that their particular area might be selected for the county hospital, a terrible outcry arises about the hardships and the deaths that might be caused although the thing was entirely an interested clamour; and it is the fact that where you have the provision of institutions you have all sorts of questions and all sorts of interested agitations which makes it extremely difficult to decide whether or not there is really need for the institution. Care has to be taken, and we have to move somewhat slowly, but there is no idea of sacrificing the sick and suffering merely to save some few pence in the rates. On the other hand, there is no intention of allowing an interested clamour to cause unnecessary expenditure in the provision of institutions where there is no very real demand for them. In regard to the point that was raised by Deputy Figgis, there are many of the schemes which were not drafted with legal care, and we find here that even when we have people in this Assembly, and the assistance of people outside the Assembly, who are skilled in drafting, that clauses are put down that do not exactly cover everything they are intended to cover, and do not clearly bear the meaning on scrutiny that they may have been intended to bear. The schemes, of course, were drafted by people who had not that experience or skill in drafting, and sometimes they appear to disadvantage because of that, when in reality the intentions of the schemes are much better than one would gather from what is written down. In regard to that Tirconaill scheme the intention, of course, was clearly that in cases of necessity people could be admitted. I think that could be read from the provision, whether they had three months' residence or not. In any case, the intention of the three months' provision was that the person might be admitted, free and chargeable on the county, into the County Hospital if he had been three months resident in the county, but that otherwise he should be chargeable on the county outside. We, in the Department, know the intention of the farmers of the schemes; it may be quite freely admitted that the greatest skill is not always shown in the actual drafting of the provisions, but as far as the suggestion that people would be allowed to die on the roadside because they had not been three months resident in Tirconaill is concerned, that is not a thing that people need fear.
I can satisfy the mind of Deputy Figgis in regard to that clause on the point that he has raised. As one of the members of the Committee who had the drawing up of the scheme, I can say that there was no intention of doing anything such as Deputy Figgis has alleged, and Deputy Magennis has pointed out to me that the changing of the punctuation in the sentence will make it perfectly clear that it was the intention, where there was an accident or emergency case, that the visiting surgeon, the visiting doctor or the matron will have discretionary powers, to admit at once, but the full stop was in the wrong place. That was not the intention of the Committee that drafted the Scheme, and in the printing there may have been an error in the punctuation. But, in any case, the Committee in charge of the hospital, or the officials in the hospital, have full power to admit any case of accident. The provision in regard to the three months was necessary because anybody who knows the situation of the Tirconaill County Hospital will understand that there are three counties close to it. It lies on the borderline of Tyrone and many people in that county, who are nearer to it than to their own hospital, would come in and be chargeable on the rates of Tirconaill if the Three Months Clause had not been put in.
I am sorry the Minister did not make it quite clear as to the intention of this Bill, because most people in the country do not understand it, or at least a good many do not. It is quite clear that the intention behind the whole measure and behind the reforming of the Poor Law was to bring the best medical attendance to the doors, as it were, of people. Hitherto, if they wanted the best medical service, they had to be sent to Dublin at considerable expense and at considerable danger to themselves. What has been aimed at is to bring modern medical skill to the doors of the people and to do that you must have properly equipped hospitals and have good medical men to carry out the work. Except in one centre of each county that cannot be efficiently done without considerable expense. It cannot be spread about in other centres all over a county without considerable expense entailing a proper theatre, proper equipment, etc. To have it done properly one central hospital in any ordinary county is enough and it must appear to the ordinary man that to expect anything more is to expect the impossible.
Question put: "That the First Schedule stand part of the Bill."
Agreed.
SECOND SCHEDULE.
I move the Second Schedule, which gives the dates in which they came into operation and fixes the date on which anything done under the Schemes has the character of legality.
Question put: "That the Second Schedule stand part of the Bill."
Agreed.
THIRD SCHEDULE.
I move the Third Schedule, which gives the moneys to be re-paid.
Question put: "That the Third Schedule stand part of the Bill."
Agreed.
FOURTH SCHEDULE.
I move the Fourth Schedule, which gives the amounts that have been repaid, and the repayment of which is now to be legalised.
Question put:—"That the Fourth Schedule stand part of the Bill."
Agreed.
THE PREAMBLE.
Whereas the existing laws relating to Local Government in Saorstát Eireann have long required amendment and alteration and in particular the existing law relating to the relief of the poor is wholly unsuited to the circumstances of Saorstát Eireann and causes unnecessary hardship to persons requiring relief thereunder while at the same time the cost of administering such relief is excessive:
And Whereas in the circumstances hereinbefore recited the relief of the poor under the existing law has in several counties become wholly unworkable and in order to meet the emergency so occasioned the Councils of those counties have reorganised the administration of the relief of the poor in their respective counties and have for some time past been administering such relief in accordance with schemes prepared by such Councils with the approval of the Minister for Local Government, the principal provisions of which Schemes are:—
(a) the abolition of the existing system under which the poor were relieved in workhouses established in each Poor Law Union;
(b) the centralization of the administration under one authority in each county;
(c) the establishment in each county of central institutions in which the poor of the county can be relieved;
(d) enabling all poor persons requiring relief to be relieved either in or out of the central institution as may be thought advisable;
And Whereas until a comprehensive reorganisation of the whole law of Local Government in Saorstát Eireann can be prepared and submitted to the Oireachtas it is necessary that temporary provision should be made to remedy the more serious defects in the law and in particular that legal authority should be given to the said Schemes of poor relief which have been put into operation by several County Councils as aforesaid, that power should be given to other County Councils to formulate similar schemes, that certain emergency powers should be given to Local Authorities, and that authority should be given temporarily to the Minister for Local Government to deal with Local Authorities which are forgetful of their duties and responsibilities.
I move the preamble.
I beg to move: "To delete all after `time,' line 20, and substitute: `Though excessively costly in administration, it is futile, inasmuch as it is not directed towards the prevention of the destitution which has to be relieved.' " The object of this amendment is just to express, if it were acceptable to the Dáil, this view, that the present Poor Law requires drastic alterations, and that its purpose ought to be altered from that of merely relieving destitution and poverty to the purpose of preventing destitution. I do not know that any good purpose would be served by going over the ground again. We have expressed our view in the course of the discussions, that the main idea of the Poor Law will have to be altered, and I think it is generally accepted that there has to be an alteration.
The object of putting down this amendment was rather to express the view of the Dáil, which is that the present system, while being costly, is futile, and it simply means an attempt to bail out the sea. I think, after all that has happened, it is not worth pressing the amendment, and I will ask leave to withdraw.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question, "That the Preamble stand part of the Bill," put and agreed to.
TITLE.
"An Act to remedy the more serious defects in the existing law relating to the relief of the poor and certain other matters of Local Government, and for that purpose to amend temporarily the laws relating to the matters aforesaid."
I beg to move the Title.
Question put and agreed to.
Ordered for Report on Friday, 9th March.