Dáil Éireann debate -
Monday, 26 Mar 1923

Vol. 2 No. 45

THE DAIL IN COMMITTEE. - SUPPLY—VOTE ON ACCOUNT.

The PRESIDENT

I move a Vote on Account for Financial Year commencing 1st April, 1923:—

"That a sum not exceeding £14,099,174 be granted on account for or towards defraying the charges for certain public services for the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924."

The various sums against the particular services that are dealt with are set out in the White Paper, amounting in all to £14,099,174. I intend within a month to bring up the whole of these Votes for consideration by the Dáil, or at least within the month of April to bring up the whole of them, and consequently, this being only a Vote on Account, it was not my intention now to deal with them by detailed discussion, which I believe is to some extent customary on matters of this kind when asking for such a large sum. I think I have already explained that the work of the Ministry of Finance is pretty considerable, and that within this year the principal officer has undertaken the control of another Service under the Commissioners, and that the consequent reduction of the Staff and the other work that has been taken on in connection with the Compensation Bill that we have just passed, has absorbed a good deal of time, and has not given us an opportunity for dealing with a matter of this kind in the ordinary normal way. I would then, if the Dáil were agreeable, prefer if discussion on the Estimates were, as far as the details are concerned and, in fact, the general discussion, left over until the whole Estimate is being introduced. I should say it would come on within a week, if not sooner, when we reassemble after Easter. It is a large sum to be asked for, 14 millions; it contemplates an expenditure running over something like four months. It is anticipated that the discussion on the Estimates may possibly extend over a considerable period, and to that extent Estimates for four months are being asked for. In the ordinary way that length of time could be devoted to the consideration of the Estimates. A good deal of complaint was made last year about the haste with which the Estimates were introduced, and the rather short time left at the disposal of the Deputies for the consideration and discussion of them. It is much better that items involving such a huge sum as appears on the White Paper should be the subject of the most careful consideration of the Dáil.

Mr. BLYTHE

I second.

Mr. THOMAS JOHNSON

I am afraid that, like other members of the Dáil and probably the general public, I am surprised and somewhat in a fog as to the procedure that has been chosen by the Minister. The Dáil was led to understand, as late as Friday last, that there would be some statement from the Minister respecting future taxation. We were informed that the Minister for Finance would not anticipate the statement he was to make to-day. I think that that led most people to believe that there would be some statement from the Minister respecting the finances of the coming year. Now we find that we are merely asked to authorise the expenditure of 14 million pounds without any indication as to where that is to come from, how it is to be raised, or who is to pay.

We are asked to authorise the taking out of the Central Fund of 14 millions, but we are not asked to authorise the putting in of any money to that Central Fund. I am aware that already there are certain taxes that will run over the end of the financial year, but I think I am right in saying that there are other taxes that will not run over the end of the year. But we are left to assume that the taxes imposed a year ago in Britain, which were accepted by the Free State to carry on until the end of this year, will continue until some change has been decided by the Dáil. I suppose there is some justification for it, but I would refer the Minister to Article 54 of the Constitution. It says:

"The Executive Council shall be collectively responsible for all matters concerning the Departments of State administered by Members of the Executive Council. The Executive Council shall prepare estimates of the receipts and expenditure of the Irish Free State for each financial year, and shall present them to Dáil Eireann before the close of the previous financial year."

Now, whether that was a wise provision or not I cannot say, but it is the provision that was made on the initiative of the Minister himself, and it is proposed, I understand, to adjourn until over the end of the financial year, and we are not to receive from the Minister responsible for this Department any estimate of the receipts for the next financial year.

The PRESIDENT

Oh, yes, to-morrow.

Mr. JOHNSON

To-morrow?

The PRESIDENT

Yes.

Mr. JOHNSON

That perhaps is satisfactory, although we have had no notice of it. The law has not been broken, but the Standing Orders have.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

It is very fortunate that it is not the same thing, or it would be the most law-breaking country in the world.

Mr. JOHNSON

I take it, pending the introduction of an estimate of the receipts for the next financial year, we are asked now to vote the sum of 14 million odd pounds on account of public expenditure for various items. The Minister has asked us not to deal in detail with these various items and votes because there will be an opportunity given during the month of April, and in view of the very short notice and difficulty of raising questions of expenditure I suppose there is no alternative, but it seems to me to be stretching too much the goodwill—shall I say?—of the Dáil to ask us time after time to deal with these matters in this rather slipshod manner. One is forced to the conclusion that the Minister would be well advised if he would nominate some assistants on the financial side to act for him and assist him in the conduct of his Departmental work in the Dáil. I am sure it would be a relief to him, would facilitate the work of the Department and his work as President, and would help, perhaps, to get through the forms of procedure with more loyalty to the word of the Standing Orders.

There is just one thing I think I had better deal with, and that is to point out in these Estimates that of forty-two millions of a total, of which fourteen millions is voted on account, something like twenty-one millions are army and property losses. I suppose we would be right in saying that a third of the cost of the army would be as much as we could afford under normal circumstances; so that I take it the cost of the present destructive campaign for this year is about eighteen million pounds. That is to say, eighteen million pounds is to be charged upon the people in respect of the campaign of destruction for the year. That would be, roughly, about £5 10s. for every man, woman and child in the Free State area, or something over two shillings a week each. Now that is a very formidable tax to pay for work which ought not to have been required. It might be well to have the fact driven home to the people in that manner. It would be be about two shillings per week per head of the population. True, it is, I think, that the cost to the people has to be put against the value. I would ask the Dáil at all times when dealing with questions of taxation and rates— over-taxation and higher rates—to consider, not the amount of taxation, but the value that is received from it. In this respect, although I think it is well to draw attention to the formidable character of the year's charge for the campaign of destruction—two shillings per head per week for man, woman and child—the cost of not meeting it would be immeasurable. We would lose all that is meant when we speak of the value accruing to social action and to association. Society has a value to the individual. It is not merely an adding of units; it is something extra to the mere adding together of units. There is an added value in association, a spiritual as well as an economic value. The economic value as well as the spiritual value of the association would be utterly lost if the attack upon society were to succeed. There is another aspect of this very large sum that calls for attention. One cannot but remember that when there were claims made about twelve months ago for money for works of reconstruction it was not possible to find it. There was no way that could be suggested of getting the large sums of money that would be required. We repeated here what has been done in most other countries. Lifesaving, health-saving, humanity-saving, could not be entered into because of the cost; but it is possible, we see, to find ways and means to raise money when warfare, even for self-defence, has to be engaged in. It is universally the same. I had hoped that we in this country would have been able to realise the value of life-giving and be prepared to stretch our energies to the utmost for the saving of life, just as much as we would stretch those energies, when we have to act in defence, to save society from destruction. The Minister is finding means somehow—I do not know how yet—but he is finding means to raise forty million pounds. I say again, as I have said before, if half the cost of the warlike operations had been devoted a year ago to the work of reconstruction, the greater part of the destruction would not have happened. I shall reserve until to-morrow what I have to say upon the general question, which I was led to believe would have been raised to-day, and I take it we shall have an opportunity of entering into the general question of the raising of the money as well as this question of the paying away of money.

Mr. SEAN MILROY

Are we to infer from the statement of the President that he proposes to make a Budget statement to-morrow or merely a statement of the estimated receipts from the revenue for the forthcoming half-year?

The PRESIDENT

What I intended to do on to-morrow was to introduce an account of the receipts and expenditure, and to make what is usually described as the Budget statement in the case of the introduction of the Estimates when the whole of them in bulk are being introduced.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Such a statement must surely be introduced in connection with taxation, not with Estimates.

The PRESIDENT

There is no indication in the Constitution of a Budget statement being made before the close of the financial year. It ought to occur during the financial year, and in this case if we were to adopt that precedent I take it there would be an indication given in the future of the intention to tax three or four days before that taxation would come into operation. I do not know that would be an advisable course. This year perhaps it is unfortunate that the 1st of April occurs at the moment we have to adjourn. If that had not happened during the first year it would have been possible to have a meeting of the Dáil on the 31st March and 1st April. That difficulty might have been obviated, but it is obvious that one could not deal with what is intended in the Constitution in the manner asked for by the Deputy. This Vote we are asking for on account is a Vote which normally might be tabled for the first week in March. Unless this money were advanced, the public services would come to an end, because one has no funds to draw from after the 31st March. Now, some time ought to be given for consideration of this matter by the Seanad, and we will be putting it up to the Seanad on Wednesday to pass these particular items without affording any opportunity to the Seanad—which is permitted in the Constitution—of making any recommendations. Ordinarily it ought to be done in the first week of March, and if that were to be made the subject of what is put down in the Constitution it is obvious that it would not be wise to make a Budget speech on the 7th or 8th day of March. This is only a resolution asking for a Vote on Account to cover all the Supply Services, details of which are embodied in the resolution. The White Paper shows, in addition to the Vote on Account you are asked for now, a corresponding total net estimate both for this and the next financial year. It is in order to enable the public services to be carried out that this Vote on Account is asked for, and it is seen at once that this resolution must be passed this week in order to provide the necessary funds. The passing of the Vote on Account will be followed on the resumption in April by a discussion of the several Estimates in detail in the Committee on Finance. It would not in the ordinary course have been possible to have supplied detailed Estimates of each particular Vote. At present we have them in full in the Finance Ministry. A good many of them are in manuscripts, and not in a form to be issued. They are almost ready for use. The Vote on Account now covers our ordinary expenditure up to the 31st July. That is the duty laid down by the Standing Orders.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

Might I urge that the President should give a little more guidance to the Dáil as to the procedure that is to be adopted. I frankly confess that I am quite unable to follow it. According to Article 54 of the Constitution it seems that the procedure is quite clearly defined, at least it would be perfectly clear to my mind, and if there was misinterpretation I would like to have it indicated. It says in Article 54 that the Executive Council shall prepare the Estimates of the Receipts and Expenditure of the Irish Free State for each financial year, and shall present them—that is to say, both the Estimates of Receipts and the Estimates of Expenditure—before the close of the previous financial year. We have here in the White Paper the Estimates of Expenditure, from which it is apparent to us that there is to be for the next year an increase of expenditure of about £3,000,000 of which one-third is to be paid out now as Supply for the coming four months. That assumes that the taxation that has hitherto prevailed is to prevail for the future, or some increase of taxation or some remission of taxation, which I understand to be what the Constitution means in the phrase that is used in the Article I have quoted—Estimates of the Receipts. We have the Estimates of the Expenditure. The Estimates of Expenditure are based upon certain Estimates of Receipts. In order that we might be able to know exactly what best use could be made of the Expenditure surely it is necessary that we should first be furnished with some fuller knowledge than we have got of the Estimates of Receipts which I take to be the title of what is generally known as the Budgetary statement. I believe my interpretation of Article 54 to be correct and I submit to you, Sir, that both are required before the end of this month. I understand the very great difficulty in the matter, but the Constitution remains the Constitution notwithstanding. When are we going to have a statement put before us as to what will be not merely the Estimates of Expenditure, which we have, but the Estimates of Receipts which we have not yet got?

Mr. R. WILSON

The Estimates of Receipts that are mentioned here refer to next year. Perhaps the President will be able to tell us how the money is coming in this year or whether that would be anticipating the statement he will make to-morrow?

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Apparently, yes. This Vote on Account is a different question altogether from the question of taxation, or of the varying of existing taxes. The Vote on Account will have to be taken in any event. It does not at all include the discussion of proposals for taxation.

Mr. JOHNSON

I would just like to say as to the way this Vote has come before us, while making all the allowances that were called for that it would in a normal state of things have allowed us to deal with some question of moment or of public interest, and with criticism of administration, but by virtue of the fact that it was allowed to be understood that this was a day when we were going to have some general statement on the financial policy we have really not had time or opportunity to table any motion for reduction with a view to calling attention to particular public matters. I want to say that we ought not to be taken as acquiescing in this particular manner of presenting the Votes to the Dáil, and asking for large sums on account without having had notice sufficiently long, and in proper form, to enable us to deal with these matters in the way that the Constitution assumes we are going to deal with them. The procedure of the Dáil, the Constitution, and the forms that have been adopted by the Ministry and by the Dáil itself are intended to give the Dáil control over finance, and, by means of that control, to utilise occasions for criticism, for inquiry and for expressing the views of the country in regard to particular matters of administration and particular questions of policy. Unless these forms are maintained the whole balance of the Constitution and of Parliamentary procedure is going to be upset, and the control that is supposed to exist will be lost. I hope it will not be considered that this particular method of presenting Votes with short notice is a precedent for future Parliaments and future Sessions.

The PRESIDENT

I am advised that what is in the Constitution with regard to Receipts and Expenditure did not contemplate a Budget statement, but that such a statement would come on when the imposition of taxation was being dealt with, if at all—that is, if there was no imposition of taxation at all, it would nevertheless mean that a Budget statement should be made, that the disclosing of the Receipts and Expenditure did not of itself preclude a Budget statement even if there had been no interference with taxation. I do not know whether the word Budget, which Deputy Figgis used at the time it was discussed was cut out, or whether it was in originally or not. In any case, it was taken out. I am not enamoured, I must say, of what is in the Constitution at all in reference to this matter seeing it now in its operation and all the rest of it. I do not think it is business; I do not think it is defensible; but it is there, and it is on that we are acting. I am prepared also, if the Dáil should so desire, to take each one of these items, but it is scarcely fair to the Dáil, in view of the fact that they have not the details in front of them, to ask them to discuss the items in detail. In that case it simply means a delay of a fortnight or three weeks, or whatever the time is until we are introducing the Estimates in detail, when the fullest opportunity will be afforded Deputies of taking any and every item in detail.

Mr. JOHNSON

Is the Minister right in speaking of the Budget statement, as we will call it, coming on, and of discussing it when we are dealing with the Estimates?

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

No.

Mr. JOHNSON

Surely it is a different business.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

I think the Minister said in his last statement that the Budget statement would come on when we are dealing with taxation, or new taxes.

The PRESIDENT

Yes.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

That was correct, but another statement that the Budget was connected with Estimates and the discussion of Estimates was not correct. I think the real difficulty we are in to-day is, that owing to some confusion an impression was created that we would be discussing a Budget statement, that is to say, a statement concerning the incidence or variation of taxation. What we are discussing is a totally different thing, and I think the grievances that exist quite properly, and the difficulty that has arisen are altogether due to that fact. This is a Vote on Account, and does not concern the question of taxation, the incidence of taxation, or the variation of taxation, and the unfortunate confusion which arose by which people thought that we would be considering that matter to-day is what leaves us in this difficulty.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

I eliminate, as the Constitution does, the word Budget. It possibly is a word that has led to a good deal of misunderstanding. With your indulgence I desire to ask for an interpretation of what is meant in the Article in the Constitution, so as to know exactly where we are. We have the Estimates of the Expenditure for next year such as is required in this Article, but we have not got the Estimates of the Receipts for next year which is also required in this Article. Are we going to get these Estimates of Receipts before the close of the financial year in accordance with the Constitution, and, if we are, when?

The PRESIDENT

I said to Deputy Johnson that I will introduce to-morrow Estimates of Receipts and Expenditure. This White Paper does not exhaust the Expenditure. It exhausts Supply, but it does not exhaust Expenditure. I must say my interpretation of the Constitution up to last week was that it would be a Budget statement that would be introduced to-day. That, to my mind, would have been rather unfortunate. It might be alright this year, but I cannot understand how a Budget statement could be made a single hour before the date on which taxation would be increased, if you intend to increase it. Sometimes notice is given that it would be done in three months' time, but, to my mind, that is not advisable. You might remit three months' hence, but to give notice that you intend to increase any given duty at other than the moment at which the statement is made does not appear to me to be sound business. In that respect the Constitution, in my view, is at fault, and can scarcely be allowed to remain as it is at present.

Mr. JOHNSON

I agree that that is fair criticism of the Constitution, and I hope it is only one of several amendments to the Constitution that will come from the brain of the Minister himself. It may be fair to ask this question. The taxation which will automatically be imposed upon the public from the 1st of April was devised for a unitary three Kingdoms or one Republic and two Kingdoms. The situation that has been created could not have been thought of, or certainly was not thought of when those taxes were devised. I do not know whether the Minister is prepared to indicate that in respect of any of these taxes, which are obviously not suitable in their present form to this country, there will be any revision of the incidence of these taxes before the end of April. But they are automatically coming into operation on 1st April, and there will be two or three weeks during which time those particular industries or occupations will be entirely at sea, and at sea in a storm. I would suggest to the Minister that if he is prepared to give any indication to the public in respect of any of the industries that are affected, he should do so to enable them to do what they can this week to avoid the complications that will arise, as between 1st April and, say, the 15th or the 20th of April. Let us take the motor car industry and the films. Now, take the films as an instance. Obviously the taxation was not intended to apply to this country in the present form, and it is undoubtedly going to have a very disturbing effect. It might be the considered policy of the Government to close down cinemas. It might be desirable from some points of view, and it might be undesirable from most other points of view; but, from the point of view of finance, and from the point of view of revenue, I would ask the Minister to consider the effect of this particular tax on films upon the industry within the next fortnight or three weeks, and to state to-morrow what the intention of the Ministry is in regard to that particular industry. Similarly, in regard to motor cars, I think the people interested have a perfect right to understand between now and the 1st April whether this particular tax which was not devised for application to the Free State in this particular instance is to be continued. I think the public has a right to claim that amount of indulgence at any rate; and while we are not to expect a Budget statement to-morrow, perhaps it would be within the purview of the statement which the Minister is making if he would at least give us some guidance with regard to these two or three taxes, especially having in view the present circumstances in the Free State.

The PRESIDENT

I have been in consultation with the Revenue Commissioners about motor cars and films, and——

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Perhaps the President now would remember that we are in a certain difficulty in the circumstances that have been explained. I have allowed Deputy Johnson to ask a few questions, but it is quite clear that they are to be answered to-morrow. Any discussion on them cannot arise on the Vote on Account which is before us to-day. I think the President should give us an indication whether he is going to deal with them to-morrow or not.

The PRESIDENT

I am not going to make a Budget statement to-morrow. That is all I would want to say now. I will answer any reasonable questions. I think these are reasonable questions which Deputy Johnson has asked.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

I would like to ask one question—we are all tyros in this matter, and in endeavouring to evolve our own procedure we have to look to the Minister for Finance to guide us in this. Am I not correct in saying that the taxation which is now prevailing, automatically expires at the end of this year? One gathers from Deputy Johnson's remarks that the taxation is automatically continued like a running brook until it is stopped. Am I not correct in saying that if no new legislation is brought in it is automatically discontinued or stopped at the end of this year?

The PRESIDENT

I am glad to say that you are not correct.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

I find I am.

Mr. PETER HUGHES

Does Deputy Figgis think that no one is to pay any taxes on dutiable articles between now and the 1st May? I think we are wandering around this Vote on Account to an alarming extent and wasting a lot of time. If we finish that Vote on Account, then we could get on with the other business, and that would be the better thing to do. I think the Vote on Account is the usual business, and that it cannot be got over. In every place where a sum on account is required to carry on a concern for two or three months you do not ask for the full amount. I think what we should do now is either to vote the sum of money required or refuse to vote it. If there is any other question to be asked regarding the statement to be made to-morrow, I think to-morrow would be the time to ask it.

Dr. P. McCARTAN

I see in the vote on Account for the Estimates a sum of £11,423 for the Governor-General. I think, according to the Constitution, he is only entitled to £10,000, and, as that is three or four times as much as the President gets, I do not see why the Governor-General is entitled to any increase. I do not think that he is more important than the President. I do not see why he should live in any greater luxury, or get any greater salary than the President has. The President is the elected representative of the people, and the Governor-General is imposed upon us. I should just want to know what the extra £1,423 is for?

The PRESIDENT

We are liable also for the upkeep of the establishment. I do not mean the whole of the house, but several other items, the details of which we will be able to place in your hands within the next fortnight or three weeks. There was a provisional sum voted last December of £10,000 for the establishment. I do not think that the expense reached £10,000 at that time, but that had nothing to do with the salary. It is over and above the salary. I will be able to furnish complete details, but I have not got them at the moment.

Question put and agreed to.

The PRESIDENT

I take now item No. 2—Supplementary and Additional Estimates for financial year ending 31st March, 1923. This is a resolution of Ways and Means which I have to move. It is "That towards making good the Supply granted for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1923, the sum of £692,914 be granted out of the Central Fund."

This resolution is necessary in order that we can use the money which has been already voted. You have voted the money, and this resolution must be passed to enable us to take it out of the Fund into which it was voted.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. WILLIAM DAVIN

Before we pass from this, I would like to take this opportunity of asking the President if he can make any statement on behalf of the Government regarding the position and the future of the railways. Three months ago it was agreed that a certain period should be set aside during which Railway Companies would be invited to put their house in order, and, at the expiration of that period, failing an agreement that would meet with the satisfaction of the Government, that the Government themselves be called upon to declare the future policy with regard to the railways. I would like to take this opportunity, in view of the many rumours that are aflcat in the Press and elsewhere, to ask the President if he would make a short statement at this stage as to the exact position regarding the future of the railways, and whether any information has been conveyed to him by the Associated Railways as to their failure to agree to a policy of grouping.

The PRESIDENT

I have no information to give. The railway companies——

Mr. DAVIN

I am not asking for information regarding the railway companies. I am asking for information in respect of the future policy regarding the railways.

The PRESIDENT

The time runs until the 31st March. They were given that time to see if they could come to an agreement, and, of course, we are not entitled to ask if they have come to that agreement until after the 31st March. I have no information from the Associated Companies themselves. They have not approached us, as a body, to inform us as to what the result of their deliberations has been up to this.

(3) Vote on Account for financial year commencing on 1st April, 1923. Resolution of Ways and Means:—

"That towards making good the Supply granted for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924, the sum of £14,099,174 be granted out of the Central Fund."

The PRESIDENT

I move this motion. It will be observed that this Clause is drawn in the same form as the corresponding Clause which was originally inserted in the Bill which became the Appropriation Act.

Question put and agreed to.

The PRESIDENT

I move No. 4, which is a Money Resolution required by the First Standing Order on Financial Procedure. It reads as follows:—

(4) Money resolution to be moved by Minister for Finance in Committee on Finance in connection with Clause 4 of Central Fund Bill:—

"That it is expedient that authority be granted for the charge on and payment out of the Central Fund or the growing produce thereof of such sum or sums as may be required for the purpose of effecting the adjustments with the British Exchequer for which provision is made in Article 5 of the Provisional Government (Transfer of Functions) Order, 1922, and Article 74 of the Constitution of Saorstát Eireann."

This Money Resolution, as I have said, is required by the First Standing Order on Financial Procedure as the necessary foundation for Clause 4 of the Central Fund Bill. Its object is merely to perfect the machinery for carrying out arrangements which have already been agreed to and to enable transfers to be made for the purpose of effecting the adjustments with the British Exchequer for which provision is made in Article 74 of the Constitution. The revenue which is at present collected does not represent what is called the true revenue. We are collecting revenue which belongs to Great Britain, and they are collecting revenue which belongs to us. Take the beer duty, for example. The duty on Dublin beer, which goes into consumption in England, is collected here, and the same thing happens in respect of other items in regard to which the English pay and they are consumed here. The present resolution lays down that for the purpose of making the necessary adjustments in matters of this kind issues may be made as required out of the Central Fund. In one case, I think there has been rather a large reduction in the amount we anticipated, and, in another case, we are credited with a rather large amount which was not anticipated. It is in order to make it possible for these adjustments to take place that this resolution is put down.

Question put and agreed to.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

The resolutions are reported to the Dáil.