There are no amendments on report, and I beg to move that the Bill be now finally considered. I promised in the Committee stage to consider a new Clause proposed by Deputy Johnson enabling any arrangement entered into with the British Government under this Bill to be extended to other countries. But I am afraid we could not see our way to accept such a condition. The sole object of the Bill is to ensure relief from double taxation that arises in consequence of the change of Government and our fiscal independence of Great Britain. Any fiscal arrangements with other countries had already existed before any change, and while it may be a proper subject for consideration, and for legislation, in the future it is a problem of an entirely different character. People who are seeking relief in this case are people in respect of whom there would be no such case for relief if it were not for the fiscal independence of Saorstát Eireann, so they are certainly in a very different category to those subject to double taxation from other countries than Britain. A person having investments in America would not be in any worse position by reason of the setting up of Saorstát Eireann than he would be if we had not secured that special provision, whereas, persons having investments in Great Britain, and living in Ireland, would be in a different position. Therefore, it would be an innovation, and it was not our intention originally to deal with anything but persons prejudicially affected, and who certainly were entitled to special consideration by reason of what happened.
THE DAIL IN COMMITTEE. - DOUBLE TAXATION RELIEF BILL, 1923.
Are we to understand then that the sole purpose of this Bill is to give relief to the citizens of Saorstát Eireann who have investments in Great Britain? I see that Clause 1 includes not only people having investments, but people who had to pay in respect of a subject of charge which might mean tariff on commodities. Now, I understand, from the Minister that it is not intended, in this Bill at any rate, to give relief by any reciprocal arrangement, such as that which exists between Great Britain and Australia or Canada, in respect of tariffs. I wonder am I right in understanding that there will be no remission of taxation, say, on motor cars, which come from Britain, as contrasted with the taxation which is imposed upon American cars. Under what authority are we going to act in this matter? We have taken over, as one of the British Acts, the Act which allows that remission, and will the Minister tell us whether the effect of that Act if we are going to proceed under it will be that the reciprocal arrangements will be as between motor car and motor car imported from Great Britain into Ireland or exported from Ireland to Great Britain? Is it to be a remission under this Bill, or under any other Act we may have taken over on account, of such things as motor cars or clocks, or whiskey, or any other commodity of a like nature? From the words of the Minister in introducing this we might have assumed that the only question affected by this Bill will be investments by citizens of Saorstát Eireann in securities in Great Britain. If that is so, then, of course, there is a certain simplification, but it is not implied in Clause 1, which reads:—"Wherever under any law from time to time in force in Great Britain, or in Northern Ireland any tax is for the time being payable in respect of a subject of charge in respect of which a corresponding tax is payable in Saorstát Eireann it shall be lawful for the Executive Council of Saorstát Eireann to enter into a provisional arrangement with the British Government, and if the case shall so require with the consent of the Government of Northern Ireland for the granting of relief in cases where there is a charge both to the Irish Free State tax and to the British tax in respect of the same subject matter." Does that effect only Income Tax, or does it affect any other tax? I was hopeful we should have had some indication at least from the Minister of what is in the mind of the Government here in respect to arrangements, and the kind of arrangements they are thinking of. Is it to be a complete abandonment of any Income Tax, provided you get a reciprocal abandonment of any Income Tax, or is it to be a partial arrangement? What is to be the position of citizens of Saorstát Eireann in respect of Income Tax, and what is to be the position of exports where there is a corresponding tax payable in Great Britain?
I do not think it is too much to ask the Minister to give the Dáil at least some indication of what is in the mind of the Government in respect of the relief they propose to grant from double taxation. Is it, by the way, only relief from double taxation? Is it relief when the tax is one and a half? In that case the title is a misnomer. I think the Dáil is entitled to a little more information before letting this Bill pass from it.
This Bill covers all Income Tax, whether investment income or not. It extends to stamp duties, death duties, Corporation profits tax, but it will have no application to Customs and Excise duties. The tariff on motor cars is not double taxation. I do not know how one and a half taxation could occur. The normal course is in the case of a person having, let us say, money invested in Guinness's; 6s. in the £ is deducted. In some cases one gets income as a particular percentage free of income tax; in other cases it is a percentage of income subject to the deduction of the amount of income tax. Now, in the case of a person having investments in the Great Southern & Western Railway, and in the London North Western Railway, let us say, £100 in each case, in one case 5s. in the £ would be deducted on a £100, if the income were £100, so that person would get £75 income; and having the same income from the London & North Western Railway 5s. would be deducted from it at the source. That is to say, instead of getting £200, one would get only £150. In addition to that, at present without this Bill, the British Government would be entitled to charge that person income tax on that income of £200, and in the same way I expect we would do the same thing here, so that ultimately the sum paid would be 10s. in the £ by that person, and that would be unreasonable. In the case of the dividend on Consols being paid here —if one had an income of £200 from Consols, the British Government would be entitled to take 5s. in the £, paying £150. We would then come along and demand another £50, so that the person's net annual income would be only £100, if some machinery, such as we are now setting up under this Bill, were not arrived at after consultation between the two Governments, so as to give relief to such persons.
Will the Minister say what would happen, suppose the rate of taxation as between the two Governments was 3s. in Ireland, and 6s. in England?
That is to be a subject of arrangement.
Would it be double taxation?
The person would then be liable in the event of the Bill not going through to 9s. That is, the sum in excess would be the sum total, whatever that might be, of the difference between the two income taxes, if we had not an arrangement, through the machinery of this Bill, to come to an accommodation with the British Government in regard to such cases. That is what is intended by the Bill.
I now move that the Bill be passed. I want the Bill to go to the Seanad this week. It is most essential that it should be finished this week, in order to enable us to enter into the arrangement I have referred to.
I second the motion.
This Bill is a Money Bill within Article 35 of the Constitution.
And as such, your certificate will be appended, accordingly?
Yes.