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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 18 Apr 1923

Vol. 3 No. 4

QUESTION OF PRIVILEGE.

I desire, with your permission, a Chinn Chomhairle, to bring before the Dáil a question of the privileges of Deputies which, as I conceive it, is one of very considerable constitutional importance—I refer to a question arising out of a raid conducted upon my house, a search through my papers by armed men acting, apparently, under the authority of the present Ministry. I wish to make it perfectly clear, in raising this question, that I want to do so as impersonally as possible, on public and not on personal grounds. I wish to make clear, also, that I want to deal as little as possible with the demerits of the raid, as a raid, because, compared with what other people have had to suffer, it was a very trivial affair, but its constitutional aspect is another matter; and that aspect, from the point of view of the privileges of this Dáil, is a matter of importance to every Deputy in the Chamber. Before raising the matter here I notified the Minister for Defence, setting out the facts in a letter to him, and I received a reply from him stating that the military authorities, and the military intelligence authorities, had no responsibility in the matter. Likewise, before raising the matter in the Dáil I notified the Attorney-General as the particular person responsible for the administration of justice and law in this country, and I asked him to make enquiries, on the Civil side, as to the matter complained of, and I asked for an assurance that there would be no further occasion to raise any similar complaints. I regret to say that the Attorney-General has been unable to give me any answer—at least, any answer that I can use in this Dáil— on the matter of my complaint, and I do not, up to the present moment, know whether the Ministry accept responsibility or do not accept responsibility. I informed the Attorney-General that I would raise the matter at the meeting of the Dáil to-day.

Allow me to state as briefly as possible what happened. In the early days of March I had a previous visit from un-uniformed armed men in broad daylight, about 4 o'clock. They came in a lorry, and three of them made their way into my house, and they asked for a person who does not live in the house, and whose name I did not know. They were told it was my house, and they apologised profusely and withdrew and searched other houses in the neighbourhood. That was in broad daylight, and quite publicly. The three men who entered the house on that occasion were among the number to enter the house upon the occasion which I wish to describe to Deputies now. On Saturday, 24th March, I left Ireland to go abroad for the Easter holidays. On Tuesday the 27th March, during my absence abroad, the raid in question took place, between 5 and 5.30 a.m. I had taken the precaution to leave a maid in the house, but the house looked as if it were an empty one, because the blinds had been taken down. On this occasion of the 27th March, two lorry loads of armed and un-uniformed men came to my house. The lorries were left on the public road, guarded by men with rifles, and the house was surrounded by men with rifles. Some 20 men armed with revolvers and flashlights made their way into the house. They tried to break in by breaking in a small window, and, failing in this, they were eventually admitted by the maid.

When she opened the door some twenty men rushed in. They said they were looking for a man unnamed, and they went all through the house apparently looking for this man unnamed. The maid said to them—"Do you know that this is Mr. Gavan Duffy's house, and that he is away?" One of them made answer, "We know it bloody well, and we will do him in when he gets back." That may be put down to frolic and exuberance, but one could wish that the frolic of these gentlemen would take a little less sinister form. Various small articles were purloined, and a certain amount of breakage was committed; but on these matters I do not wish to detain the Dáil. I mention them merely in order that the Dáil may see the setting of the picture. For some reason, which I do not pretend to have fathomed, gentlemen who, two or three weeks before, had apologised for their invasion had discovered in the meantime that apology was not the right attitude, and that quite a different attitude was to be adopted.

I now come to what is the main complaint I wish to bring before Deputies, because it involves every Deputy in this Dáil. The raiders, I may mention, were in telephonic communication from my house with someone, presumably the persons to whom they are responsible, and I am left to gather that when they did not find the man for whom they were looking they satisfied themselves that their duty would be to go through my papers. At all events, the fact remains that these persons spent, as nearly as I can ascertain, one hour in my house ransacking my papers; private papers, political papers, historical papers, and legal papers. I ask, by whose authority, and by what right? Am I, or am I not, a Deputy in this Dáil, and as such Deputy have I, or have I not, the right to protection from this kind of molestation? I bring the matter before Deputies here as a member of a minorty in this Dáil, as one with no Party to support him, but confident that my fellow-members will see that a matter of principle is involved. I do not bring it forward because it affects me personally, but because it affects—it goes to the root of—the right of Deputies to exercise constitutional opposition against the Ministry for the time being.

I have stated the facts as plainly as I could. I have not sought to embroider them in any way, and I do not wish to make very much comment upon them; but I do put it to this Dáil that the matter, if you eliminate the personal issue altogether, is one of privilege to which no member of this Dáil can be indifferent. Some of my papers were taken away. One man was seen to put a private diary of mine into his pocket after examining it. Later on, during the same day, a parcel wrapped up in brown paper was brought to my door. This parcel was addressed to me in block capitals, so that one could not identify the handwriting. The messenger who brought it, when asked where he came from, said: "This is from Pim's." That parcel turned out to be a parcel of papers abstracted by the armed raiders that morning. Perhaps I need not comment upon that. What I put to the Dáil is this: Either a Deputy, who has become in every sense a member of this Dáil, is entitled to protection from molestation, or he is not. The Constitution deals with the matter in this way. Article 20 provides that each House shall make its own Rules and Standing Orders, with power to attach penalties for their infringement, and shall have power to ensure freedom to Deputies and to protection for their official documents, and all their private papers. It reads: "To protect itself and its members against any person or persons interfering with, molesting or attempting to corrupt its members in the exercise of their duties." We have not made any Rules or Orders dealing with this matter so far, but I think Deputies will probably agree with me, that in stating in the Constitution specifically that we, this Dáil, have power to make rules to protect the private papers of members, and to protect members against molestation; that by putting that in the Constitution, we implied that these were rights of members which we intended to protect. Nothing has been done to give effect to that Article, but in raising this matter I raise it in the hope that something will be done now. I should not be frank with the Dáil if I did not tell them what I conceive to be the reason for this raid. I may be wrong. I hope I am.

I would like to point out to the Deputy that the reason for the raid does not enter into the question of privilege, which is what the Deputy is raising now precisely.

I am raising the question of privilege precisely, but I can conceive circumstances in which it would be sought to make a case that privilege was taken away on certain grounds.

The question of privilege, which is a general one, is that the Deputy's house is privileged against raids by Government forces. If that were established, it could not be qualified. At this particular time, the Deputy is only raising the question of privilege, but at another time, such as on the motion for the adjournment, he could raise any other matter.

The Dáil will see that two questions are involved. Perhaps I have said enough to make that clear. Two questions are involved. One is the right of a Deputy who takes his place in the Dáil, who takes the oath and who becomes in every way a Deputy of the Dáil, to be immune from raids upon his house. The second is the right of the Deputy under all circumstances to have his papers immune from examination by the servants of the Ministry. All I wish to say is this: unless this Dáil asserts itself to protect Deputies in such matters, it will be obvious that no constituent of a Deputy who enjoys the disfavour of the Ministry will be safe in writing to that Deputy because the correspondence received from that constituent as well as the answers to the constituent will be liable to be examined by persons who have no right to examine those papers. I do not think it is necessary for me to develop that at greater length; but Deputies will realise that if the privacy of one's papers is gone you might as well abandon all pretence—because then it would be a pretence—that constitutional opposition is a legitimate and proper thing in this country.

Deputy Cathal O'Shannon rose.

There is is a matter of fact involved in this. A question of privilege may be raised so as to interrupt business, but in this matter which has now been raised there is, in addition to a question of privilege which would be for the Dáil to decide, a question of fact. If Deputy Gavan Duffy's house was raided by Government forces the question of privilege immediately arises. If a question of fact as to who raided the Deputy's house has to be cleared up first, it cannot be cleared up at this particular time. Other opportunities can be given. In order to see how the debate may develop, I would like to hear whether it is admitted that Deputy Gavan Duffy's house was raided as he alleges. That is the essential point.

I must certainly enter a very strong protest against the manner, style, and, indeed, everything connected with the way in which this question of privilege has been raised. The Dáil met on Thursday and Friday of last week, and on Tuesday of this week. Now, on Wednesday, we get a hysterical description of a raid that has been reported to Deputy Duffy, and which occurred a week, or a fortnight ago. I have had no communication from the Deputy about this, and if Deputies do take up an attitude like that and come along with every trumpery charge they have got, and every allegation that it is possible for them to make, there cannot be any satisfactory answers given to them. I think it is unreasonable to expect in a matter of this sort on which a Deputy appears, or endeavours to make us believe that, he appears, to take very strong exception, when he has allowed his passion to subside for four days without bringing it forward, and then brings it up without notice, and without giving any indication good, bad, or indifferent of the fact that he was about to raise it at a particular time, that any satisfactory answer can be given. I think it is unfair and unreasonable for any Deputy to expect an answer in such circumstances. I cannot give a satisfactory answer to any case of this sort that is brought forward in such a manner. The Ministry has no interest, good, bad or indifferent in any legal, historical or private papers belonging to Deputy Gavan Duffy, nor have they any interest in any such papers possessed by other Deputies. I think Deputies will admit that from the very begnning we have endeavoured, as far as our resources and abilities would permit, to deal with every case that any Deputy has brought forward as fairly and fully as possible. Unless the Deputy wishes to get a political advertisement out of this, there is no other excuse I can find for his bringing it forward in such a manner, without giving due notice.

I cannot allow the last statement of the President to pass without refuting it. I stated previously, and I now repeat, that I gave notice to the Attorney-General of my intention to raise the matter to-day. I think I made it clear before that the only reason I did not raise the matter before was because I wanted to give the authorities time to answer the case that I put.

The Attorney-General is not a member of the Ministry, and I would like to know if there was any document submitted by the Deputy. I have not seen any document, if there was one sent to the Attorney-General.

The question of privilege is whether a Deputy's house may be raided by Government forces, and whether a Deputy's documents may be examined by Government forces. That question can be raised at exceptional times, but if in this particular instance it has to be settled first, as a preliminary, who the people were who raided the Deputy's house, then that question will have to be settled in another way and at another time. The Deputy will have to raise the matter on the adjournment, or by question, and if it is established that the Government forces raided his house, then a motion can be brought forward to declare that such action is a breach of the privileges of Deputies, or a motion could be brought forward to set up a committee on privileges which would set out what, in its opinion, should be the privileges of Deputies. When that committee would report, the Dáil would have an opportunity of expressing its opinion. I do not think that we can continue this matter further at this stage.

I quite appreciate what the Ceann Comhairle says, but now that I have raised the question publicly I would like to know when I shall have an official answer to the question which, as the Ceann Comhairle points out, is a preliminary question. I can raise the question tomorrow, and give an opportunity for an answer if that be necessary.

The Deputy might put down a question to the Minister for Home Affairs or to the President.

Might I suggest, as this question does raise a very serious matter, especially in view of the question put by Deputy Staines yesterday, that there should be some understanding, or, shall I say, some decision of the Dáil, as to what the privileges of the Deputies are. I would support this suggestion that you have thrown out that a Committee should be appointed on privileges generally or on the privileges of the Deputies, and that Committee could report to the Dáil at an early date. There is no need to argue the necessity for such a Committee. I would ask the Minister, the President of the Council, to move in this matter at the earliest possible date. It is obviously such a case as ought to be moved by the President, and not by any Deputy of the Dáil. I would urge that the matter should be taken up in that way and a Committee on Privileges set up at once.

There is one aspect that I would draw your attention to. I think that possibly the President used a word a moment ago in some irritation, a word that he would not care to stand by, but he did speak about this charge raised by Deputy Gavan Duffy as a trumpery charge——

The charge raised by Deputy Gavan Duffy cannot be discussed any further. That question will have to be decided in another way.

The point I am putting before you is——

Is it a point of order?

It is a point of privilege. Assuming that the Deputy's house should have been raided by Government forces, and that such a charge was made, should that be described by the President of the Executive Council of this State as a trumpery charge?

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