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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 2 May 1923

Vol. 3 No. 8

UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE BILL, 1923—SECOND STAGE.

I beg to move the Second Reading of this Bill. It is necessitated by the fact that a number of unemployed workers, now in receipt of unemployment benefit, exhausted all their rights on various dates between 4th April and 1st July, and will not be in a position to draw benefit after 1st July, except to the extent that they have contributions to their credit. In view of the high present rate of unemployment it is considered necessary to amend the existing emergency provision, and place it on a new basis for the period between now and 17th October next. It is unavoidable that the Bill, which is mainly an emergency Bill, should contain a number of references to existing legislation. Legislation by reference is to be avoided if possible, but where a permanent scheme is being temporarily modified it is the only practicable course.

There are at present two concurrent schemes of unemployment insurance— (a) the permanent scheme, under which benefit is payable strictly in proportion to contributions, and (b) an emergency scheme, under which benefit, known as uncovenanted benefit, is allowed in advance of contributions to be repaid when the workers obtain insurable employment. It is a question open to much doubt whether the general compulsory State scheme of insurance, inherited from the British Government, is appropriate to the conditions which exist in Ireland. This scheme was primarily designed to meet the needs of an enormous industrial population and large areas devoted almost entirely to industrial production. In Ireland a much smaller proportion of the population is engaged in industry, and industrial establishments of a comparatively small type are widely scattered over the country. The Dáil will, in due course, have to consider the future of unemployment insurance under normal conditions in Ireland. But, at present, normal conditions do not exist, and the rate of unemployment is so high as to necessitate special temporary provision. Whatever opinions may be held about the suitability to Ireland in normal times of the general compulsory state scheme of insurance, with its machinery of Employment Exchanges, it may be said that in the abnormal conditions which have existed ever since the end of the European War some such scheme, if it had not existed, would have to be improvised.

At the end of March approximately 33,000 persons were in receipt of unemployment benefit. This number is twice as large as the estimated number in insurable occupations under normal conditions, such as existed before the European War began, notwithstanding that a greater number has, for the time being, been absorbed into the Army and other Forces, of whom a proportion would normally be engaged in an insurable occupation. It will thus be appreciated that unemployment is serious at the present time.

The abnormal conditions of the last two or three years have been dealt with in the following way:—Up to November, 1920, Unemployment Insurance was limited to some seven trades, in which the rate of unemployment was normally severe, and to workers who became employed on munitions works during the European War. In November, 1920, an Act was passed bringing practically all manual workers and all other workers in receipt of less than £250 per year into insurance. The only two large classes not brought in were the farm labourer and the private domestic servant. Except for these two classes, the Unemployment Insurance Scheme covers the same scope as the Health Insurance Scheme.

The Act of November, 1920, provided that workers should be entitled to benefit in proportion to the number of contributions which stood to their credit, one week's benefit being payable for every six contributions, subject to the worker having twelve contributions paid for him in each insurance year. Unemployment was, however, at that date so abnormal, and it has continued to be so abnormal ever since, that very large numbers of those whom the Act brought into insurance for the first time could derive no advantage from it, since they had no employment during which they could have been placing contributions to their credit. The solution adopted for this difficulty was to allow workers who could show that in normal times they used to work in an insurable occupation, and could be expected to resume that occupation when trade improved, to draw uncovenanted benefit—that is, benefit on account of contributions which they had not yet paid, but which they might be expected to pay when they were able to resume their ordinary occupation.

This scheme of uncovenanted benefit has, with periodical modifications, been in operation since early in 1921, and there is at present running in Ireland the fourth special period of benefit during which a worker having exhausted his right to covenanted benefit, is entitled to receive a certain amount of uncovenanted benefit. It was intended originally that this fourth special period should terminate on the 1st July next, and thereafter to resort entirely to covenanted benefit. But considerable numbers of persons who were in receipt of benefit at the end of March will have exhausted their rights some time before the 1st July, and even when 1st July comes, will not have a sufficient number of contributions to their credit to entitle them to benefit for more than a few weeks.

It is estimated that the 33,000 persons in receipt of benefit at the end of March exhaust their fourth special period of benefit on the following dates:—

8,000 on 10th April; 6,000 on 18th April; 2,000 on 24th April; 2,000 on 30th April; 2,000 on 7th May; 3,000 on 15th May; 3,000 on 1st June; 3,000 on 15th June; 4,000 on 1st July.

In other words, by the end of April over 50 per cent. of those in receipt of benefit will have exhausted their right to benefit, and can draw no more until after the 1st July. At the end of May 75 per cent. will have exhausted benefit.

If from 1st July onwards the ordinary scheme of covenanted benefit is resumed at the rate of one week's benefit for each six contributions, it is estimated that 66 per cent. of those in receipt of benefit at the end of March would have sufficient contributions to their credit to allow for 26 weeks' benefit, or more, while 15 per cent. would have sufficient contributions for 6 weeks only, and 12 per cent. for 4 weeks only. The remaining 7 per cent. would be eligible for benefit for indeterminate periods. By the middle of August next some 10,000 persons would have exhausted all their contributions, and would have no rights to benefit. In these circumstances it is considered that for the next six months some special provision must be made. But the provision that can be made is to be considered in relation to the other heavy burdens to be borne by public funds. Uncovenanted benefit is expensive, and while in theory the resulting deficit in the Unemployment Fund, that is the fund created by the contributions from employers, employees and the State, will ultimately be made good by the enhanced contributions that the insured contributor will pay when he resumes his insurable employment, this theory is not a sufficiently firm basis to justify too heavy a present drain on public funds, which can ill afford it. In Great Britain it is understood that the payments out of the Fund are now approximately balanced by the revenue of the fund from contributions. In Ireland that is far from being the case, and the contributions now being received are not much more than 50 per cent. of the amount that is being paid out. For the financial year terminating on the 31st March, 1923, the deficit in the Unemployment Fund, met by advances from the Central Fund, is approximately £550,000, and the continued payment of uncovenanted benefit is impossible in the face of such a deficit.

The deficit is greater than it should be, due to non-compliance with the obligation to pay contributions under the Act, on the part both of public bodies and private employers, and it will be necessary to take steps to secure that the considerable arrears due are paid. To some extent, non-compliance is due to disapproval by employers, and in some cases by employes, of the whole system of Unemployment Insurance. But some such scheme, if it had not existed, would have had to be created to deal with the abnormal conditions of recent years and, whatever be the views of individual employers or of sections of workpeople on the appropriateness of the scheme to normal circumstances, they cannot expect the rest of the community to bear the cost of their non-compliance.

Apart from the merits of a Compulsory State Unemployment Insurance Scheme on points of principle, complaints are made that the Scheme is abused by those for whose advantage it was introduced. There has certainly been some abuse, though nothing like as much as is alleged; but the greatest administrative vigilance cannot prevent some abuse when the system of paying benefit on stamps alone has to be departed from. The conditions of the last three years have made it difficult to carry on the investigation into claims necessary to detect and prevent abuse, and not infrequently complaints that the scheme is being abused come from those who, if they had performed their duty, could have prevented abuse. Some employers are disinclined to co-operate in supplying information that would enable improper claims to be disallowed, and it is often difficult to secure from critics of the Insurance Scheme the facts on which, it is presumed, they base their criticisms. At the same time, I am glad to acknowledge that, in many cases, employers have done their best to provide the Exchange with all the information it should have and also that Trade Union officials have, in many districts, undertaken special enquiries in order to detect and prevent wrongful or fraudulent claims by their members. It must be recognised that unemployment is a problem of which the community in general, and the employing and employed sections of it in particular, must take serious account. During the last three years it has been a problem so large as to need the central resources of the State to deal with it and where the State has had to maintain machinery for the purpose, it is making no unreasonable demand in asking the employing and employed sections of the community to give the fullest assistance and cooperation that is possible. They are, after all, interested in the efficient administration of funds to which they themselves specially contribute.

It is generally said of all proposals relating to Unemployment Insurance that they fail to cure the evil of unemployment. But they are not intended to do so. Of necessity, Unemployment Insurance contemplates that unemployment exists and it has no wider purpose than to secure that while unemployment does exist provision is made for its relief. Naturally, as the country returns to its normal condition the present unemployment will greatly diminish, and when the Commission on Reconstruction and Development reports the Government will proceed, so far as proves practicable, to give effect to its recommendations and thus expedite the provision of work for the unemployed. Arrangements are under consideration for instituting at once an inquiry into the effect on Industry and Trade in the Saorstát of the fiscal system we have inherited and as to whether any modifications in, or additions to, the duties comprised in that system are desirable in order to develop Industry and Trade. Everything to secure extensions in the present scope of employment, consistent with a careful examination of all the factors of the problem, will therefore be done, but the proposals contained in this Bill will still be required to deal with the unemployed of whom there must necessarily be a number during the period to which the Bill applies.

The main purpose of the Bill is the reversion to covenanted benefit—that is, benefit supported by contributions— and the termination of the system of uncovenanted benefit, the disadvantages of which are popularly, though inaccurately, summarised in the description of it as "The Dole." This description is not accurate since no person receives the "Dole" who is not liable at a later date to make up for what he receives by his subsequent contributions. But if the general Compulsory State Scheme of Insurance is not ultimately maintained in this country—and there are strong arguments against maintaining it—uncovenanted benefit at the present date does tend to be in the nature of a Dole.

In returning to the basis of contributions, two main difficulties have to be met—firstly, the fact that during April and May large numbers will exhaust all present rights to benefit, and, secondly, that when the 1st July comes large numbers will have so few contributions to their credit as to be entitled to little benefit on account of them.

It is proposed to meet the first difficulty by providing that the Fourth Special Period shall terminate on the 16th May, 6th June or 1st July, according to the date on which the worker exhausts his right to benefit in the Fourth Special Period. He then will be entitled to draw covenanted benefit in proportion to the contributions to his credit. It should be appreciated that, under the provisions of the existing Unemployment Insurance Acts, no account is taken for the purpose of determining what contributions remain to a worker's credit, of any benefit he has drawn against these contributions since the introduction of the general Unemployment Insurance Act of November, 1920. The purpose of this was to secure that a worker who had contributions to his credit and had to draw benefit on them before he was entitled to any uncovenanted benefit, is not put in the position of exhausting all these contributions and obtaining in total no more benefit than a person who had no contributions to his credit and drew uncovenanted benefit during all of the same period. It is not proposed to alter this provision in the existing Acts, but even when that position remains, one-third or more of those at present unemployed would have exhausted their contributions in six weeks after the 1st July on the basis of one week's benefit for every six contributions. To meet this difficulty it is proposed in the Bill that power should be taken during the period ending on 17th October next to reckon each unexhausted contribution as equivalent to three contributions, and thus to break the transition from uncovenanted benefit to covenanted benefit on the strict one-in-six basis. If each unexhausted contribution is reckoned as equivalent to three contributions it is estimated that 12 per cent. of the unemployed will have sufficient contributions for 12 weeks' benefit, 15 per cent. for 18 weeks' benefit, and the remainder, all but 7 per cent., for longer periods in the interval between May and 17th October next. This 7 per cent. (or 2,310) represents persons whose precise position in respect of contributions it is not yet possible to ascertain, but all except 1,000 of them have some contributions to their credit. The 1,000 would be persons who have had no insurable employment for 2½ years, and who, therefore, have no strong claim to be kept within the Insurance Scheme. In this way all but a very small proportion will be enabled to draw at least 12 weeks' benefit in a period which at its maximum is 22 weeks and at its minimum is 15½ weeks. This artificial enhancement of the value of a contribution will involve provision out of public funds to meet the charge on the Unemployment Fund, though the provision will ultimately be less than if uncovenanted benefit were continued. In order to restrict it within reasonable limits it is proposed that no person should be enabled to draw in the period from May, June, or 1st July to 17th October more than a total of 15 weeks' Benefit. This compares favourably, from the point of view of the worker, with the total of about 10 weeks' benefit which would be the average proportion appropriate to that period by comparison with the normal maximum of 26 weeks' Benefit in a period of 12 months.

One consequence of the reversion to the basis of contributions is that when the First Benefit Year terminates on October 17th about one-third of these unemployed will, if they continue to draw benefit, have no contributions left unexhausted with which to start a new Benefit Year. It is hoped, however, that by that time economic conditions will have so improved as to have absorbed all, or nearly all, of these workers into employment, and workers whose unexhausted contributions are few in number should lose no opportunity of securing employment. There is one direction in which both parties in industry can do much to absorb some of those now unemployed, and that is by putting their heads together so as to try to secure the reduction in the costs of production and distribution that are now overdue, and that must bring about a revival in business.

So much for the main provisions of the Bill. There are other points that may be mentioned now. The reason for adopting 17th October next as the end of the First Benefit Year is to meet the situation that in practice has been found to arise when the Insurance Year and the Benefit Year are the same. It is the practice in July of each year that all Unemployment Books are exchanged for new Unemployment Books and the year from July to July is known as the Insurance Year. It has hitherto been the Benefit Year also, but it has been found that the exchange of books is never completed in July as intended and that it is near the end of September before this process is finished and the accounts of each insured contributor for the Insurance Year ending in July are made up. It is, therefore, more convenient that the Benefit Year should begin in October and in the particular circumstances of the present time the period, May to October, is a convenient period in which to deal with the abnormal conditions now operating and to allow of further consideration being given to the permanent future of Unemployment Insurance.

It is frequently urged that the payment of Benefit to men who remain idle is unsound, and that better results could be obtained by devoting the money spent in Benefit to providing work. This contention overlooks the fact that while the average rate of Benefit paid to men is something less than 20s. per week, the cost of putting a man to work could not be less than 60s. per week, if wages, materials, supervision, etc., are provided for. In other words, the money paid out in Benefit if applied to works instead would provide only for one-third of the unemployed and the remaining two-thirds would either have to be left without provision at all or be paid Unemployment Benefit as at present. The latter alternative would mean that the State would have to find, in addition to the sum it now finds for Benefit, a further amount equivalent to two-thirds of that sum. There is undoubtedly an indirect gain to the community when the unemployed worker can be found work instead of being paid Benefit, but the gain is indirect, while the result of adopting the suggestions made with that object would be to involve the State in an immediate liability to find nearly twice as much money as the large amount it now has to find.

This question of applying Unemployment Benefit, in some form or other to promote practical work, has often been examined, but it has generally been concluded that such a proposal is inconsistent with the conception of an Insurance Fund, to which employers, employés and the State contribute, and could not be adopted without abrogating the insurance principle. It is nevertheless considered that, within certain limits, it is possible to make arrangements on these lines, and a Clause has been included in the Bill for that purpose. The Clause will be considered in detail at a later stage, but it may be explained now that the idea underlying the Clause is this: A certain number of workers are either in receipt of Unemployment Benefit or are about to have their employment terminated in circumstances that would entitle them to Unemployment Benefit. The prospect before them, then, is to remain idle and draw something less than 20s. per week on the average. If an employer proposes either to start new work or to retain in his employment men whom he would otherwise have to discharge, providing he obtains in relief of his expenses the sum that the men would receive as benefit, the Clause contemplates that the men should be in a position to exercise a choice whether they receive Unemployment Benefit and remain idle or obtain work and for the period during which they work lose a proportionate part of their right to benefit. This involves no extra expense to the State, and no compulsion on the worker to accept employment if he prefers to exercise his legal right to draw Benefit and remain idle. Any such compulsion would be inconsistent with his rights under a Contributory Scheme, assuming always that in the terms of the Act he does not refuse "suitable employment" and thus disqualify himself for Benefit. The proposal is confined to works of public utility since it would not be proper to apply an Insurance Fund to works out of which a private employer would make a profit, and it rests in the discretion of the Minister to approve or not any particular proposal as in his view the public interest requires.

The only other provision in the Scheme to which it is necessary to refer is that whereby soldiers enlisted on short service, who before enlistment were normally employed in an insurable occupation, are secured the minimum number of contributions in each Insurance Year that are necessary before they can qualify for the Benefit at all. Their position under the Insurance Scheme is thus left no worse and probably somewhat better than if they had not joined the Army. When the time for general demobilisation approaches, the question whether special provision under the Insurance Scheme should be made for soldiers on discharge will have to be considered.

It is estimated that the proposals in the Bill will involve an expenditure out of the Unemployment Fund—after allowing for contributions received from employers and employees—of £250,000. This amount, as the Fund is now in debt to the extent of £550,000, will have to be provided by advances from the Central Fund. Naturally, the reversion to Convenanted Benefit will, by exhausting contributions now standing to the credit of the insured, reduce the future liabilities of the Unemployment Fund, but the present expenditure will be of so serious an amount as to justify the Government in representing to the Dáil that it is the maximum which the State could afford to expend on this purpose within the period to which the Bill applies.

I congratulate the Assistant Minister for Industry and Commerce on the clarity of his statement and the apparent, thorough grip of the Unemployment Insurance Scheme that he has exhibited. I am sure it will be very helpful in going through Committee and, perhaps, in going through the Seanad if he exhibits the same amount of understanding of the Bill and its various Clauses. I am very glad to hear the Minister say that the term "dole" is inaccurate as applied to the present system. It has become commonly known as the dole both amongst employers and workpeople, but I suggest that it is well we should understand what the present system means, and that it should not be denounced by an epithet which has no relation to facts. Unless we are prepared to say that the money advanced by the State for land purchase to landlords and farmers is a dole, or that money advanced under the British Trade Facilities Act is a dole, or loans to local authorities utilising State credits—if these are all doles, then I will admit that the present Unemployment Insurance scheme—the system of Uncovenanted Benefit—involves a dole system. It is, as a matter of fact, merely advanced by the State to the credit of the insured member in the Unemployment Fund, and he is bound to repay it, or it is bound to be charged against the contributions to the Insurance Scheme. As I say, the Benefit is no more a dole than any other Insurance Benefit which is assisted by a State contribution. The Uncovenanted Benefit was undoubtedly rendered necessary as a safety valve, perhaps as a humanitarian act because of the abnormal distress and unemployment, or distress caused by unemployment, arising out of the slump in trade which followed the cessation of the European War. But the Uncovenanted Benefit, the amounts advanced to the fund, have to be repaid, and are intended to be repaid by the contributions of the persons in the original scheme.

The present proposal, as I understand it, is to revise the machinery for distribution and to revise the basis on which benefit will be paid. But it is still Insurance, and there is, I think, no real distinction in principle between the proposal now put forward and the scheme at present in operation. I am prepared to say that in the circumstances in this country, in view of the mentality, shall I say, of the people generally in regard to this particular kind of social operation, it is healthy to get on a strict insurance basis. I am prepared to support the Bill in so far as it does that. While saying that, I think it necessary also to say that there will be, as the Minister has pointed out, a number of persons, whose number cannot be calculated, who are going to be thrown on the world without any support, and unless other provisions are made they will be receiving a dole by other means, either private charity or public support. I would point out that it is not possible to eliminate this tail-end from consideration. They must be considered unless we are able, by so ordering and governing the country, to ensure that they shall be provided with opportunities for employment.

There are two or three criticisms that perhaps should be raised on some details which I will just touch upon. One has been referred to by the Minister when speaking of the men on short service in the Army. I am not quite sure if I understand the effect of this provision aright, in view of what the Minister said, but it seems to me that if the soldiers are to be placed in as good a position as they would have been had they not been in the Army, there is no reason why they should be treated differently from any other section of the insured contributors. I submit that the proper attitude towards soldiers who were insured contributors should be to treat them as such all the time they are on service, and pay their contributions as employers, deducting from their pay the amount due by them, and put them in the same position as they would be in had they been in normal employment. I am not quite sure whether you are entitled under your law to refrain from paying these contributions. I am inclined to think that it was a legal liability to pay contributions for these men, who are not in a legalised Army. Therefore, it is the employers of these men, on this particular kind of defence work, who are liable, legally, for the stamping of the cards and the paying of the contributions. Perhaps I made a mistake in saying that the men should now be called upon to pay up the arrears, because the failure to stamp the cards incurs a liability on the employer and not on the workman, so that the whole of the arrears and contributions ought to be paid by the Minister for Defence.

Then there is a question that would require some explanation regarding the position of seamen under this Bill. As I understand the Section the Ministry is proposing to consider any Irish seaman on a ship registered in England or Scotland as being insured in England or in Scotland and entitled to the benefits and the responsibilities of insurance in England and in Scotland. I do not know what arrangement it is proposed to make regarding the payment of benefits to Irish seamen under those conditions, but it seems to me that a seaman, employed on a vessel sailing into or out of Irish ports, ought to be treated as a person insured on the Irish Insurance Fund and accepting all the liabilities and the benfits of the Irish Insurance Fund.

I would like to emphasise, too, that some provision should be made in the Bill for the training of what are legally known as "young persons," boys and girls under 18, while receiving unemployment benefit, under a scheme similar to that which is being adopted, I think, by the Ministry of Education in Great Britain. I find that the Minister for Labour, there, with a view to dealing with this situation, a situation arising out of 200,000 young persons from 14 to 18 years of age away from school and having no employment, and protecting these young persons from the evil effects of idleness, decided, in collaboration with the Board of Education, to establish education centres for unemployed young persons. Five half-days' instruction will be given per week and will cover the simplest trades and occupations of domestic training. Compulsory attendance is under discussion for those over 15 years of age who are in receipt of unemployment benefit. I suggest that some useful development of that idea might be embodied in the Bill or in a scheme for the future administration of this Act. I think some arrangement has been made with the Technical authorities in one or two places, but I am not aware that it has been very widely availed of, and I would urge upon the Minister the importance of following up that plan in the widest possible way and to encourage those who are willing to take training to remain in training as long a time as possible. The Minister has rather suggested that this scheme of compulsory insurance against unemployment is not adaptable to the circumstances of this country. I do not know on what grounds this conclusion has been come to. I believe that so long as you have a large number of people, or even a small number of people, always unemployed, that it is well to make provision by insurance for their maintenance while unemployed, and I believe that it would be generally approved, amongst workers themselves at any rate, that this system should not be contracted, but should be extended to include even agricultural labourers. Now I come to what I consider to be the real fault in this proposed scheme, and I think it is a very serious fault. It has been commended by the Minister as meeting the demand which we all make that it is much better to pay wages for work done than to pay Unemployment Insurance Benefit for idleness. The proposal is, under Section 7, to allow men to contract out of the Act. I think that, in its present form at any rate, is a very dangerous provision and is quite objectionable and will be opposed—I was going to say as fiercely as possible. The proposal is to allow an employer and a workman or workmen to come to an agreement whereby the workman who has been insured is entitled by virtue of that insurance to certain benefits on being unemployed, that the workman should hand over his benefits for the given number of weeks to the employer on condition that the employer shall continue to employ him. The provision is made, of course, that the work shall be work of public utility. Now, to me that seems to be a proposal to ask men to subsidise the employer and to accept reduced wages for the period of their benefit and then, when that period has expired, to be utterly without resources. The Minister said that these agreements must be in relation to works of public utility and that the Minister is to be the judge of what is public utility. Ministers change, and ideas of what are works of public utility change. I wonder what is in mind. Is it a work of public utility such as under a public authority? That cannot be, because the Clause speaks of "between an employer and a contributor"; the singular. So I take it that it is within the competence of the Minister who is going to judge this proposal to say that clothing, manufactured for the Army, for instance, would be a work of public utility. It is within his competence to do that or to say that boot-making would be, or, let us say, house-building, a much more likely proposition.

I dare say that behind this proposal is the thought that the works of public utility will generally be of a kind in which unskilled labour is employed, but I am sure the Minister will not think of confining his approval to one section of the workmen, employed in house-building, for instance. If the general labourer is to be brought into such a scheme, there is no reason why the carpenters, say, should not be brought into it, and if six carpenters employed by a man on public utility work came to an agreement with the employer that they would pay out of their savings, otherwise the insurance benefits, part of their wages, the employer paying the remainder, I wonder what would be the position of the other employees engaged on private work by that contractor? I cannot imagine this scheme working out without a very great deal of trouble, both with the workmen and with the employers. There are two employers proposing to undertake public utility work. One of them is enabled to make an arrangement with his workmen which will be approved by the Minister, and the other endeavours to make such an arrangement, but cannot. The employer who is subsidised out of this Unemployment Insurance Fund is obviously going to be in a position to do the work with greater profit, and the competing employers will necessarily have a grievance, and will necessarily oppose the development of that public utility work. The proposal seems to me to lead directly to all kinds of collusion between an employer and some of his men, or all of his men, to the detriment of other men, and to the robbery of the Unemployment Fund. You are proposing to allow these men to sell their benefits, or, rather, to give away their benefits to their employers, and after the benefit period has expired, and that particular group is to be thrown out, he will endeavour then to make an agreement with another group of men on the same job. I cannot see anything to commend this proposal in the Bill in its present form, and I will urge that it is very unwise to persist with it. It is not natural to the Bill, and I suggest that the Ministry has not thoroughly thought it out and canvassed its possibilities and its consequences. I rather imagine that it is some kind of adaptation of a scheme that has been adopted in Switzerland. I do not know whether the conditions in Switzerland are anything like the conditions in Ireland in respect of unemployment, but I have been rather interested in noting the similarity of this portion of the scheme with certain portions of the Swiss scheme. I also notice that other portions of the Swiss scheme have been left in abeyance, or completely turned down. For instance, the Swiss scheme adopted a system of loans and subsidies for land cultivation, and they assisted agriculturists to a very great extent by this means, but the Ministry here has told us that they are not prepared to help in removing the evil of unemployment by assisting agriculturists. The Minister for Agriculture told me, in reply to a question the other day, that the present state of the public finances makes it impossible to make any but a very limited provision for the granting of local loans, and he cannot encourage the making of applications for such loans. That is in reply to a suggestion that it would help agriculture in this particularly difficult time if money could be provided on loan at a low rate of interest for preparing for future years. I suggest that that would be a very commendable method of helping to remove this problem of unemployment, and would, at the same time, assist in the economic betterment of the country. That part of the Swiss scheme, or a similar scheme, was turned down by the Ministry, but this very objectionable part referred to in Section 7 is adopted, and I also notice that the Swiss restrictions upon imports from countries which, by virtue of exchange and very cheap production, have been pouring in manufactured articles, have not been adopted either. Only the bad parts, in my view, of the Swiss scheme have been taken over by the Ministry.

I would ask the Minister to consider very seriously between now and the Committee Stage of this Bill, whether it would not assist in the passing of it to eliminate Section 7, and to reconsider the proposals in regard to the utilisation of the Unemployment Fund in this manner. Nothing will be lost, because, after a further consideration, a better scheme might be evolved, and a new Bill can be passed embodying these proposals without affecting in any degree the value of the Bill in relation to insurance.

Now, the Minister in the course of his speech spoke of the cost to the fund of the non-compliance with the law in regard to contributions, and said, of course, that some of this non-compliance was because of the disapproval by both employers and workers. I do not know how far the Minister himself was engaged in the canvassing of such non-compliance two or three years ago, but I know that my colleagues and I had many pleadings from more or less responsible people to ask us to assist in the agitation against the stamping of unemployment insurance cards. We resisted, and said that this was a very important matter to the workers, and we would urge on every occasion that the stamps should be, and ought to be, placed on the cards. The responsibility rests with those at present on the Government benches and their active supporters. I was very glad to hear the Minister say that in many cases complaints regarding abuse of the unemployment benefit scheme were really not justified to the extent that is commonly supposed. Very recently I heard a very considerable employer, a very important person, make charges about the abuse of this system against workmen who were receiving benefit. He was asked to give a specific instance and he did so, but immediately on inquiry and after further questions had been asked it turned out that the employer himself had refused to stamp cards, and, having done so, gave a certificate that a particular unemployed person was justly entitled to what he called the dole, and that he had been employed in such a work for such a period when he had not been so employed at all. The employer first of all broke the law, then assisted in the fraudulent act of robbing the unemployment fund, and then denounced the Act and the system because it was a dole and depraving.

The Minister says that when the Commission on Reconstruction reports the Government will, so far as is practicable, proceed to put into operation the recommendations. I am sure they will, so far as they think them practicable, and they have adopted the policy of setting up a Commission on Reconstruction for the purpose of avoiding the necessity of deciding how to deal with the unemployment problem themselves. Finding that the Reconstruction Commission has been placed in a difficulty regarding its Chairman, they delay for five weeks, I think, in the appointing of a successor, and the Commission on Reconstruction is held up because the Ministry cannot make up its mind as to who shall be the next Chairman. The Commission on Reconstruction is given a very big task, dealing with problems that would take a very long time to deal with satisfactorily and efficiently. If the Government here is going to wait until that Commission has issued its final report, then we are going to wait a very long time before we have any valuable work set afoot to deal with the unemployment problem. I think it is wise for any Ministry to accept assistance from outside in regard to problems of this kind, and perhaps particularly for a Ministry that has come into power with the difficulties and in such circumstances as this Ministry. But here we have an insistent problem that cannot wait until a whole range of reports on economic propositions are brought forth. I would make this serious suggestion to the Ministry, that they should take half a dozen men, with one of the Executive Council as Chairman, and constitute themselves the Ministry of Reconstruction, with powers to act, not merely to advise. It seems to me that we have arrived at a stage when something like that ought to be done. We have had hints publicly in the Dáil, and semi-publicly in other places, that the Army authorities have certain schemes and proposals in regard to big public works. Well, if the Army authority is going to do big public work on the one hand, and some other authority is going to do or recommend some big public work on the other hand, and there is no proper co-ordination between these works, then we are going to have chaos. I suggest that rather than the Army authority taking this work in hand, it should be done by a civilian authority, even though the Army machinery may be used by the civilian authority in undertaking this civil work. On that particular aspect of the case I would like to say that any proposal to undertake public works of an engineering kind by large masses of men in the Army, while they remain in the Army under military law and under military discipline, will be distasteful to the majority of the people, I think, in this country. I have no objection to the men in the Army remaining as an organised body in doing work of a public kind in the way that has been suggested, but the Army will have to be another kind of Army. It ought not to be a military force; it ought to be an industrial force; it ought not to be subject to military law and military discipline; it ought to be a free body of men, free to leave and free to come within very narrow limits, and not subject to any penalties for breach of military law. That, however, is a problem I suppose that will have to be dealt with on another occasion, but I think it well to utter a warning in regard to the unwisdom of using a military organisation in the way that has been suggested.

Now, the Minister said that insurance against unemployment was not, and did not pretend to be, a preventive of unemployment. I suggest that assurance of employment is infinitely better than insurance against unemployment. The Minister rather suggested that the development of economic affairs after the cessation of strife will lead to a very rapid absorption of the unemployed. I want to draw attention to the extent of this problem at the present time. We have been given the number of 50,000 as being in the Army, and there are 12,000 or 13,000 prisoners. There are probably 1,000 or 2,000 men who have been opposing the Army who will be demobilised, and will be unemployed. There are about 30,000 registered unemployed, and not less than 12,000 or 15,000 unemployed who are not registered. In round figures you have 100,000 men to consider available for civil employment. I do not know how many it is proposed to retain in the Army as a permanent organisation, but you are dealing with the problem of 100,000 men. The proposal is to retain the Army. Let us assume that you are retaining 50,000 men for a time, and using them in civil work of a constructive nature. You still have another 50,000 to deal with, and you are not going to deal with them merely by substituting this unemployment insurance scheme for the one which has been in operation for the last two or three years. It is urged by some that immediately after the war there will be a great revival. I am not so sure. There will in some trades, no doubt, but unless you take other steps I am not so confident, as the Minister and his supporters are, regarding the effects upon employment of a cessation of hostilities. The policy of the Government, as far as I can detect it, in respect to economic questions, is to encourage by all means possible the development of an export and import trade, to improve transit facilities as between the countries and the ports, to improve the ports, to facilitate shipping, to use shipping for the purpose of sending out of the country these things which we produce, and bring into the country, these things which we do not produce and are not willing to produce.

I have some figures relating to unemployment in four or five other countries which throw some light upon the possible situation here. Denmark is very often quoted as an example to Ireland. Denmark is a country which lives mainly by export of farm produce, the greater proportion to Great Britain, and a smaller proportion to Germany, pre-war. Its manufacturing industries are probably no greater than those of the Saorstát. In January, 1914, the average unemployment figure of the Trade Unions amounted to 14 per cent. That is pre-war. After the war, in January, 1922, they had 25 per cent. unemployed. I have not to-day's figures, but some more recent returns than January, 1922, suggest to me that unemployment in Denmark, a country exporting agricultural produce, is still very high. The Netherlands, which export a great deal of agricultural produce, had for their unemployment figure of April, 1914, 5 per cent. In March, 1922, it was 20 per cent. Norway, another country which exports agricultural produce to some extent, but chiefly timber and products of timber, and which largely lives upon the export trade, had its figure for unemployment in January, 1914, 3.7 per cent. In January, 1922, the figure was 22 per cent. Sweden, in a somewhat similar situation, living upon export and import trade, had its figure for April, 1914, 6.5 per cent., and for March 1922, 32 per cent. We are not so bad as that, bad as we are. Take Germany, I have not the precise figures, but they are very low, being in the neighbourhood of two or three per cent. a year ago. France was in the neighbourhood of three or four per cent. a year ago. The very fact that these two countries were engaged in war, and these other five countries were not engaged in war, may have some significance. The four countries I have spoken of— Denmark, the Netherlands, Norway, and Sweden—live to a great extent upon their ability to sell their products in other countries. Germany and France, on the other hand, during the last year or two, have been obliged in one case— it was choice in the other case—to live very largely upon internal trade, internal production, and internal consumption.

I suggest that that has some significance for us. We have grown up with the idea that there is one market for Irish products, and that market is Great Britain. Some people are suggesting that there are other markets, and, no doubt, there are; but, inasmuch as Great Britain is the place where all countries are trying to pour in their agricultural produce, it suggests that it is probably the best market, and that any reliance upon other markets than Great Britain may not be very stable. We see by the reports in the newspapers, during the last two or three days, that the British market is going to be anything but a reliable market for Irish produce. If all our attention is to be directed to producing for the British market, and buying what we can in exchange for export in the cheapest possible foreign market, we are not going to be any better off in respect of unemployment than some of the countries I have quoted. I suggest that we have deliberately to set our minds to the encouragement of the greatest possible consumption of home produce within Ireland; to produce as much as possible, and to consume as much as possible, within these shores. The amount of consumption will depend, to a very great extent, upon the rate of wages and the purchasing power of the people who are engaged in the production. I suggest that the policy should be to pay high wages for work done, and to ensure employment; if you like you can put some obstacle in the way of this high wages being spent in the consumption of imported commodities. I say that an assurance of employment, the right to work, is a proposition that we ought to put before the people, and that the Government should accept responsibility for. That is a tall order, it may be said, but I submit that it is an essential of a proper social life in this country; that there should be accepted by the State, by the social organisation, a responsibility for securing employment for the citizens of the State. We have heard, and we have spoken, a good deal about stability and social responsibility. There are, I take it, certain generally accepted propositions that must be the base of society; there must be some belief in common honesty—that the word of a man shall be taken, and the promise of a man shall be believable, and that there shall be mutual protection against attack, and no interference between the communications of one citizen with another. One does not desire to pretend to lecture, but there may be no harm perhaps in reminding Deputies that society was not always organised as it is to-day: and that we have been moving from a very simple form of social organisation to a much more complex form of social organisation, and that the course of that development has been the sub-division of labour and the sub-division of the responsibility that it is intended to serve. This sub-division and co-ordination is intended to serve the individuals constituting society. The strength of society depends upon the strength of the individuals, and the strength of the individuals very largely depends upon the strength of society. I submit that it is unjust and utterly wrong to allow that social organisation to abandon its responsibility to the individual, and that if sub-division and specialisation are going to mean the throwing off of all social responsibility of individuals, then you are inviting these individuals to cut themselves off from society, and to attack society. This social obligation, I contend, necessitates the State and its Government laying itself out to ensure for every individual in the State, who is prepared to accept the responsibility of citizenship, the right of his own maintenance, according to common standards, and with that they are entitled to impose upon that individual or individuals the responsibility of adding to the Commonwealth.

Now, that leads me to this conclusion: that just as we found it necessary to use all the resources of the State to maintain the social stability, just as every country has found it necessary to do extraordinary things for the purpose of securing the social life, we are equally bound to do extraordinary things, and to use all the resources of the State to ensure that every individual shall have an opportunity for earning his livelihood. We passed through a war emergency into a peace emergency, and you have a right to treat the peace emergency with just as much earnestness and vigour, and accepting the same responsibility in regard to it as you dealt with the war emergency. I believe that if we begin to look at this problem in this light, and in the acceptance of these responsibilities, we will immediately proceed upon different lines from those that have been suggested. I believe that in the solution of this problem is involved the livelihood of our colleagues representing the agriculturists, and I am prepared to face all the implications of social responsibility or State responsibility to the agriculturists for proper payment for their services in producing the necessaries of life; I am prepared to go so far as to say that they should be guaranteed such a price for their produce as will ensure that they shall be recouped, at any rate, for the reasonable cost of production. When you begin to deal with this question of unemployment from the point of view of social responsibility I know quite certainly you are going to bring in many other problems, including that problem of the vagaries of the market for agricultural produce; but I contend, and I urge upon the Ministry, that they ought to face the problem from that bedrock—that men are here with social responsibilities; that they are willing to give their services for the common well-being if the social duty to make use of these services and to maintain them are put on a decent standard.

I return to the proposition that I put earlier, that in the present circumstances of the country, the state of mind of the people in regard to unemployment and insurance, it is well that we should return to the stricter conception of what insurance is, away from uncovenanted benefits, and that we ought immediately to set about ensuring the right to work, so that even this particular insurance scheme is not going to prove a failure and rotten reed in our hands. Again I say I ask Ministers to reconsider the proposals in Section 7, with a view to ensuring the passing of the Bill relating to unemployment insurance, and at a later stage to bring in some other measure dealing with the provision of employment.

I am rather surprised at the ramifications that this Bill has evolved. I had intended to raise certain points on the next Bill that is to follow this, but, as much that has been said by Deputy Johnson is quite relevant to what I intended to say, I think it is just as fitting to say what I have to say now. I was very glad to hear the Assistant Minister for Industry and Commerce state that it was the intention of the Government to institute an inquiry into the fiscal system which we had inherited, and I gather that that inquiry is to be conducted by that Commission to which Deputy Johnson referred. Well, if so I am afraid that, so far as things are an indication, the system we have inherited will be inherited by the next two or three generations also.

At this stage An Leas-Cheann Comhairle took the Chair.

That is to say if there is a generation left that will have a serious economic problem to deal with. This question of inquiry into this matter will not brook delay, in my opinion. I refrained from intervention or criticism on the Budget Statement and the discussions that followed on the Financial Resolutions, not because I did not think that there was ground for comment, but because I believe that a certain kind of comment was of little purpose. We are faced with the fact that this country has to take up a heavy burden of debt as a consequence of the recent disorders, and the country will not be facing the fact by attempting to ignore, or evade, or deny it. It seems to me that it is only toying and trifling with this matter to think that by dropping a couple of pence on taxes on this item, and a few more pence upon another item, that there is going to be any way out of the difficulty. We have to face the burden of a debt incurred by those recent happenings, and the more clearly the people are cognisant of the fact that they have to pay for what occurred the better will be the atmosphere which will operate against a recurrence of these things. But there is another aspect of this matter, and I think it is quite relevant to this, because it goes to the root of the question of solving the unemployment problem, that is the question as to how to make taxation reproductive, so that, instead of diminishing the wealth of those who contribute to the revenues of the State, it increases it, and, consequently, increases the wealth of the State. It is simply a sorry expedient in dealing with unemployment, this method of unemployment benefit. The real solution of the matter is not the consideration of official organisation or administration of out-of-work doles or payments, but the provision of work by which the people can earn wages and by which wealth accrues to the State as a whole.

I have failed to see, in all the discussions regarding the recent Budget statement, any glimmer of comprehension that taxation had any relation to the production of wealth in the State through the diminution of unemployment. I have stated elsewhere that every industrial enterprise that has solvent potentialities is an asset to the State, and the Government that fails to give opportunities for these potentialities to develop to the full, or by a fiscal policy, creates a state of conditions which weakens, undermines or destroys those national assets, is not exercising the functions of a true Government and is not assisting the solution of the question with which this Bill proposes to deal.

We have in Ireland to-day one very apparent cause of unemployment. I have here the return of imports and exports for the year 1921, issued by the Department. They are the latest returns and are, of course, only approximations. They deal, too, with the whole of Ireland. I was going through various items manufactured in Ireland. I selected about a dozen at random, and I find that they total £20,000,000. If we asked the Government to raise a loan of £10,000,000 to help Irish Industrial enterprise we would be regarded as doing something that was absurd. But it is not considered absurd to launch a loan of £20,000,000 to pay for destruction. It is, I think, more feasible to create conditions by which the great bulk of these commodities—flour, chocolate, jams, boots, shoes, saddlery, bottles, soap, candles, and so forth— would be produced in Ireland, for Irish consumption, than to raise a loan. If half of these commodities that we imported were made in Ireland it would mean £10,000,000 spent in the creation of Irish industrial enterprise, and that would assist in the solution of this unemployment question.

Now I come to another phase of this matter. We have Protection, I believe, embodied in the Statutes of the Saorstát, but it is a very curious kind of Protection. I suppose Deputies have heard of the Safeguarding of Industries Act, and I understand that that is one of the Acts that has been adapted and adopted by the Free State Parliament, and that it is now the law of this country. Now the Safeguarding of Industries Act is Protection pure and simple. There are certain classes of commodities on which there is an ad valorem duty of 33? per cent., when imported into this country, and not one of these articles is made in Ireland. We have this topsy-turvy principle of Protection, but we protect where there is nothing to protect, and we refrain from protecting where there is something to protect. The effect of all this is to increase the price to the Irish consumer of articles not made in Ireland. For instance, one of these items is mantles for incandescent light and component parts thereof. We do not make those, but we do make jams and there is no protection against the importation of jams. We do not make domestic hollow-ware and there is 33? per cent. duty on that if imported into Ireland. We have the principle of Protection accepted in this Statute, but we have accepted it in the most grotesque way. It protects articles which do not compete with Irish manufactures, and it does not protect Irish manufactures that are really in existence. If I read out a list of those things that are so strangely protected, it would be seen that the only person who benefits by them is the British manufacturer. It was to protect his industrial enterprise that this Bill was designed, and it was one of the things that came over to us with the Treaty. We heard very little of this particular defect. If, instead of taxing a series of articles, such as this, which is in no way in competition with Irish products, we had taxed articles which represent competition to the value of £20,000,000 with Irish manufactures, we would have done something to cope with the question of unemployment. After all, that is the real question.

Deputy Johnson pointed to—and if he had not I would have quoted the figures—the number registered at the Labour Exchanges and the number of unemployed not registered, as well as the thousands of people interned, who will some day have to be turned out to do some kind of labour, and the possible thousands of soldiers who, a few months hence, may be demobilised. If we are not going to be faced, when that time comes, with a grim, hungry spectre— the menacing problem of unemployment —we will have to consider some ways and means by which provision of employment can be made. It will not do to wait. As I said in the beginning, it will not do to wait until this Commission after months and months has pursued its career of investigation. The matter, I think, can be dealt with much more speedily and much more efficiently.

It is not a question with me, at any rate, of imposing a tariff upon every import. We want intelligent discrimination. But you do want the taxation of the country, in so far as it can, to be so directed that the industrial enterprises of the nation, which are the agencies that will solve unemployment, are strengthened instead of weakened. Admitting, as I think it is generally admitted, that there is necessity for some kind of assistance in this direction, I see no reason why there should not be set up within the very near future a tribunal competent to hear the cases of such industries as are affected, and which would be able to make recommendations to the Executive Council as to how to act; and whether imposts should be placed upon such and such an import, in order to give the Irish manufacturer a chance. I do know there can be all sorts of theoretical objections to this. Of this list of imports that I have read out, if analysed, it might be said that such and such a one is not so well turned out in Ireland as the foreign article, but the fact of the matter is that these are Irish enterprises that give Irish people a chance of earning a livelihood, and the more of them there are the greater the strength and the greater will be the chance of their turning out efficient articles. But we are not to-day, and we will not be for some time, in a position to face the industrial countries of the world on the same level. On the industrial and manufacturing plane Ireland is to-day little better than in the position of a huxter. It is neither right nor necessary that that should be so. Ireland has great possibilities of manufacturing enterprise, great possibilities in addition to her capacity as an agricultural nation. These capabilities have never yet got a chance, at least not within living memory. It is the duty of this Government, and this Parliament, even if they were not faced by this terrible question of the unemployment problem, to investigate this, and to investigate it speedily, and so bring some assistance and relief to many of our industrial pioneers or captains of industry who are fighting practically with their backs to the wall, struggling to maintain an existence against appalling odds. When the Minister for Finance was making his Budget statement he said:—

"To restore the losses sustained we shall have to ask for the most cordial co-operation of every section. The nation is capable of greater efforts. We want harder work, we want greater industries, and the concentration of every citizen on his proper task, and on his due share of the daily labour ahead of us and in an united effort for the upliftment of the nation."

Those words are very true, but if the Government is to get that co-operation they must give those who are directing and building up industrial enterprises a chance to render that co-operation. They must give them a chance to hold their own in their own market; and if that is done we will have gone much further to solve the unemployment problem than we will by thinking out plans of the administration of doles for twelve months. After all, even if it were only the mercenary consideration of revenue that animated the Minister for Finance, that ought to appeal to him, because the greater the wealth production of the country, the more numerous the sources of taxation and the greater the chance of increased revenue. I was very glad to hear the Assistant Minister for Industry and Commerce indicate that the Government intended to pursue an investigation into this matter. But I have only a very melancholy hope, at least my hopes in that direction, or from that source, are anything but cheerful, and I do think that it is time to make this question articulate, and have a discussion on it; I think that the time is long overdue. I believe Deputy Johnson, in his speech here some time ago, anticipated that the country would soon be in a ferment of discussion on this matter, and the sooner the better. I quite agree with him, because in my opinion it will be one of the most profound and far-reaching issues the country will have to face. Questions such as Land Purchase are only transient, ephemeral things, though important in their way. We have got to face the question of building on sound, strong, efficient lines. The whole economic structure of the future; the whole social fabric depends on it. We will not do that by the expedient of unemployment doles. We will not do that by ignoring the hard facts that govern these things. We can only do it by facing the facts, and there is no greater clue to the facts that solve this question that we have been discussing this afternoon than the matter to which I have referred in my remarks.

I listened with pleasure to the speech of the Assistant Minister for Industry and Commerce, his nice typed speech. I was very interested while he was reading it out. I also noticed that that nice typed speech was in the hands of members on other benches.

Not in my hands. You are quite wrong.

I would like to say straight away that no one got a copy of the speech.

I think the Deputy ought to withdraw that remark.

I accept the assurance and I withdraw. This question of unemployment and its causes is a very big one. To get rid of unemployment I think you have to get rid of the causes. If you do not begin by getting rid of the causes you have no use trying to get rid of unemployment by doles or otherwise. Some Deputies here have objected to the word "dole." It is nothing less than a dole. They have drawn a parallel with the money advanced for land purchase. The money advanced in connection with land purchase is not a dole, because it is paid back cent for cent. There is no question of doles, and we do not want any doles in connection with land purchase or anything else. Any assistance that we are going to get in connection with land purchase is not State assistance at all. The State is only the medium by which we can do the business. We are going to pay back cent for cent what we get to pay for the land. I heard the Assistant Minister say in his speech that it would be very expensive to put the men who are at present unemployed on reproductive work; that it would be much cheaper to give them this dole, as it would cost more to put them on actual work. That may be true. I believe it is true, because I think the trouble would be to see the reproductive results of their work. It is very hard to distinguish to-day between work and idleness. You know a person is idle when he is standing at a corner, but when you see a man on the streets in this city scarcely moving from day's end to day's end I do not think that it can be said that the difference between one and the other is very much. When I go to buy a suit of clothes in Kilkenny I find you can send to Leeds and get a suit £3 cheaper than you can get it in Kilkenny. That shows there is something wrong.

A DEPUTY

Jewmen.

It is time for us to become Jewmen, because the day is approaching when the Jewmen will replace this race if we do not buckle to.

The Deputy must address the Chair.

I shall make the same remark addressing you. It looks as if the Jewmen are going to replace this race if this race is to go down in idleness. We talk about unemployment in Dublin. There is not a man in Dublin to-day building a house as a paying proposition. He dare not do it; it is courting disaster. It is an extraordinary state of affairs that in the City of Dublin a house cannot be built except it is done by the Government or by some Corporation having charge of public money. Something must be radically wrong. In England or in any other country in the world private individuals can come out as a speculation and give employment by building houses and other necessary buildings. It is extraordinary that in this country, which we talk so much about, such a thing cannot be done, and that the Nation must find funds to build houses. I think the sooner we shake the dust from our eyes and come down to actual facts and be quite honest with ourselves the better. If we cannot face the question let us go down, as Deputy Davin says, and be replaced by the Jewmen; let us go down in futility, to use the favourite phrase of a Minister. I think we are going to go down in futility.

On a point of order, as I did not speak at all I cannot under stand how Deputy Gorey attributes that statement to me.

I did not call you the Minister, did I? With regard to the Jewmen, you are the man who made the remark.

The statement came from the Labour benches—probably not from Deputy Davin.

I think it was Deputy Davin. There is no doubt about it that many people in Dublin are looking for houses—not alone poor men, but men in different walks of life—and they cannot find the houses. Why? Because there are no houses being built in Dublin. How are we going to build up this Nation at the rate of 180 bricks a day? We will have to get beyond the 180 or 240 bricks a day rate. If we are going to build up this Nation, we will have to put a few more bricks into it. I have seen men in England and in America who can lay up to 2,000 bricks per day, and who certainly have an average of 1,200 bricks per day. Houses are being built there and the men do not even sweat at their work. They do not idle under the guise of work, but they do work. I think the necessity for this measure and the arguments which have come from the other benches are an admission that the people of this country are not able to pull their weight; that labour in this country is not able to pull its weight. That is one of the most shameful and degrading admissions I have ever heard and I am very sorry to hear it, if it is true. Deputy Johnson says eat more. Judging from this Assembly and the people I see outside I think we eat quite enough. Eating any more would make us useless hulks. We have heard about the right to work. I agree that every man should have the right to work, but how many of the men for whom this right is claimed want work? It is all very well to demand the right to work, but who wants to exercise it, as I understand work and have always understood work? Shamming at work is not exercising the right to work. My idea of working is to get your back into it and go down and work. I knew what work was when I was young and up to a few years ago I worked and I have before me the results of work or I can put my hand on them. There is no use raising this question if we are not going to face it honestly and if we are not going to do something more than talk. We must work or, as the Minister for Home Affairs says, "we must go down in futility" or be replaced by the Jews.

I would like to express my pleasure at the announcement of the Assistant Minister for Industry and Commerce, that a Commission is to be appointed to inquire into the advisability of putting a tariff upon imported goods. I think that the report on the number of unemployed in this country is in itself a proof of the need for an inquiry of this sort. Our country at the present time, from the point of view of industries, is in a very bad way. In the past we excused that condition by stating that it was due to foreign rule. We blame a lot of our ills to-day, and rightly so, as a legacy of that foreign rule, but now when we have power to deal with Ireland's industries ourselves the responsibility will rest upon ourselves. I am one who believes that we should courageously face this question of Protection. Up to this we have been joined to a nation that has prospered on Free Trade, but the United States of America, a continent in itself, found it necessary to impose Protection and set up a tariff wall, even against its neighbour, Canada. If we turn to Europe we find that nearly every country has set up a tariff wall. While in favour of Protection, I believe that in a country like ours we should strain every point to build up industries, so that we should have an agricultural leg and an industrial leg to stand upon. However, when we come to the practical task of applying Protection I, for one, would approach the question with the greatest diffidence and fear because of the reactions and far-reaching implications of protective tariffs. We were told not long ago that a tariff should be placed on all manufactured goods and the advocates of it said that if we made such an imposition we would get revenue out of it. The slightest consideration shows that we might not get revenue out of it. Supposing a tariff was put on watches, and I use watches merely as an illustration for a variety of articles, and that £1 each was put on a million watches, we were told it would produce an income of one million yearly. Supposing we do not make watches in Ireland, that one million pounds would not be a Protection at all, but we would be taking one million pounds in taxation off the general public and putting it on those who bought the watches. That would be very unfair to the people who bought the watches and would not be Protection at all.

I am sorry to interrupt the Deputy, but I would like to know what section of the measure he is now addressing himself to.

Better not discuss the question of Protection.

I thought it could be raised on the Unemployment Insurance Bill.

It does not arise on this discussion. Other Deputies introduced the question, but it was not strictly in order.

Very well, I submit to your ruling.

This Unemployment Bill has been discussed for a couple of hours, and I wish briefly to refer to Section 7 of it. Deputy Johnson spoke strongly against this Section, but when you come to examine it I think this Section should be retained in the Bill. The Deputy says the employé is to be deprived of his legal benefit and it is to be contributed to his employer, but he forgets that the employer has already contributed as much as the employé, while the State has contributed almost as much as either. It really is not, although it may be legally due, the employé's benefit, inasmuch as he did not earn the whole of it. If the employer keeps this man engaged for a particular period by obtaining this money, I think this would be a very good Section of the Bill and would save the State as well as keep employment going.

With regard to the general subject of unemployment, I believe that if State insurance could stand on its own feet there is nothing to be said against it. It does not come into a category similar to land purchase, as if you look into the question you will perceive that the Minister for Finance has to find £536,700 as an advance for unemployment, and I believe that by this new Bill another £250,000 will be superimposed. If we who are producing agricultural produce were handled in the same way and got a certain amount of help from the State in bounties I believe it would be a dole. If we got the money it could be termed in that way "getting a dole."

I will not discuss the question of tariffs. I believe a lot of unemployment is caused by the present system, and I also believe that employment could be given by a tariff on foreign flour and foreign butter. I do not think this particular Bill is the place to discuss matters of that sort. It is a pity the necessity arises for an Unemployment Bill at all, but, seeing that it has arisen, the Ministry are meeting it the best way they can. I hope they will not have to come forward with a new Bill asking for another quarter of a million to keep the people alive, but that there will be an improvement for the better in employment.

It is generally understood by young and inexperienced individuals, at any rate, that the longer one lives the more one learns. I have learned a good deal from this discussion when I am asked by Deputy Gorey to realise that people who are supposed to work are never admitted to be real workers until we see them sweat. Well, one cannot understand, in view of that, why Deputy Gorey and those he speaks for here, can sit silently without showing, at any rate, signs of the results of such hard work. However, I intervene in this debate simply to draw attention to one aspect of unemployment which I think the Government may be in a position to deal with. We have a good deal of contention in the country at the present time, contention that is being created by the dwindling supporters of Deputy Gorey's party, as to whether direct labour or the contract system is the best and the cheapest method of keeping the roads that are now in such very bad condition. In one of the parts of the Division I happen to represent that kind of dispute has assumed very serious and far-reaching dimensions. The Assistant Minister for Industry and Commerce is supposed to have said here —and I regret I did not hear him—at the beginning that it cost more to put men on actual work than it would to put them under the unemployment insurance scheme. I cannot understand the mentality of any Deputy or his supporters outside who think that it is more sound from the point of view of national economy to put people off the direct labour scheme on the roads through the country and deprive them of the right to earn 30s. or 35s. a week doing work from which there will be a useful return than to put them at the street corner, where we all object to see them, and letting them stand there with their hands in their pockets drawing 25s. a week out of State funds.

I cannot honestly understand the mentality of any Deputy here, or his supporters outside, who stand for such a policy, and I think that the time has arrived, or perhaps has passed, when the Government might make some declaration upon a policy of that kind. I have been speaking to one of the oldest and most experienced County Surveyors in this country quite recently, and I discussed the matter with him. He stated that twenty years ago he took charge of a certain county in this country when the contract system was in operation. The estimates at that time for doing the necessary work for the maintenance of roads was £19,000, and this year, in spite of increased cost of materials and labour, the estimate is £34,000. I do not think there is anything to grumble at when you are faced with facts of that kind. I am also informed that in the Co. Wicklow, where all road work is done under the system of direct labour, the rates for the present year are 1s. in the £ less than what they were in pre-war days. I merely put forward cases of this kind to bring them to the notice of the Government, so that they may deal with this contentious question, especially so far as the different County Councils are concerned, and to suggest to them that if the statements I have given can be borne out that I think the time has arrived when they should make a declaration, and that they should provide legislation whereby they would agree to direct labour as a means of relieving unemployment and at the same time do very useful work.

The question of unemployment in its relation to the demobilisation of the Army has been raised here, and I have received a complaint within the last few days that men who have been demobilised from the Army after the expiration of the period of service for which they enlisted, and demobilised at their own request, have been refused unemployment pay. I would like to know the reason for such refusals. No matter how much we may disagree—and personally I do not agree that there ever was necessity for an Army of 50,000 men, even under the conditions which have been in operation for the last 9 or 12 months—I think it is a very dangerous practice to carry out any scheme of demobilisation which will throw men on the streets, and then refuse them this demoralising dole. I look forward to the time when, by some means or other, there will be a reduction in the Army to something, at any rate, under 20,000 men. I cannot understand why under normal conditions—and I trust we are moving in that direction—there would be any necessity for an Army, which is really for defensive purposes, of more than 15,000 men, and there are some people who would go less than that figure. I believe that the people of Ireland, the rising as well as the older generation, have got such an experience of and such a lesson in militarism, and they will not wish again for many a generation to come to see the streets and the countryside paraded by thousands of young men who might be otherwise employed on useful work. I suppose that the nation, as well as individuals, has got to learn the lesson, and in that respect I think it has been a very useful and valuable lesson. I trust, therefore, that under any scheme for demobilisation for the Army, young men who cannot find useful work will find that the Government has made provision for them. I believe that the Army, or a big section of the Army, has done very useful work, that they saved the State in its infancy, and I think that the least they are entitled to, if they cannot get useful work, is to be provided with a means of living until they can find that work. Earlier in the discussion the question of production was gone into, but although some of the Deputies were allowed to proceed without being called up, I think it is not a question that could be discussed under the terms of this Bill. I would urge, and I have risen particularly for the purpose of urging, upon the Minister for Local Government, and upon the Executive Council the necessity for making a declaration and for insisting that if they have the power they should use, as far as possible, direct labour schemes on the roads. I have seen a case decided on these grounds recently at a County Council meeting, where, as a result of giving a road contract to a farmer with 60 acres of land 20 men were thrown out of employment. I think that is a thing that, under the present circumstances, should not be allowed to exist. In the same county the original estimates, which made provision for work up to the extent of £46,000 were reduced to £28,000, although liabilities had been authorised and actually incurred to the extent of £44,000. That is the principle of national economy and good business for which Deputy Gorey and his colleagues stand outside the Dáil.

There are just one or two remarks I wish to make on Deputy Davin's last pronouncement. He has given you an example of the type of administration which he says Deputy Gorey and his colleagues stand for outside. I wish to assure the Dáil that where Deputy Gorey's colleagues, and the party that is associated with him, are concerned on County Councils and District Councils and otherwise, there is a very different tale to tell compared with those conducted by the colleagues of Deputy Davin and his party, as far as rates are concerned. He talks about the dwindling supporters of Deputy Gorey and his party. Probably in the near future Deputy Davin may have a different story—that they may spring up in an unprecedented way and knock out the ideas entertained by Deputy Davin. I have no fault to find with the Bill, but the remarks coming from certain benches have made it incumbent on us to defend our small party.

Deputy Doyle has just stated that there is a different tale to be told in Councils where members of Deputy Davin's party hold the reins. I happen to come from the town of Wexford where we have a Labour majority on the Corporation, and, I think, without being egotistical——

A DEPUTY

What has that to do with it?

It has a lot to do with it. I think we ought to be allowed to answer the observations that have been made. I think, without being egotistical in any way, that I can say that we have carried on as well as, if not better than any other town in Ireland. We have reduced the rates this year by 1s. 4d. in the £, notwithstanding the fact that we have done more useful work there in the past three or four years than has been done in the previous twenty years.

At this stage the Ceann Comhairle resumed the Chair.

I think that the discussion to a considerable extent has been straying very far from the Bill itself. I do not think that it has been stated in relation to the Bill what its Clauses mean, what it intends to do, and what is the exact need for it. The Minister in charge of the Bill explained it at considerable length in the technical way in which a Minister is generally privileged to understand a Bill of this kind, which is usually a Bill of considerable intricacy, and one with which I suppose very few of the Deputies are very conversant, especially with regard to its details. It proposes, as I understand, to amend the Insurance Act of 1920-22. This Act made certain provisions for unemployment. Unemployment arises generally from the conditions of trade and labour, and these conditions I assume were so vexed that a Bill was introduced to try if possible to create some conditions that would enable friction to be kept out. Now, that meant a covenant which would embody an assurance that periods of prosperity would contribute in some degree to relieve periods of adversity. I think that was the meaning of the Bill, and I do not think it meant that the State was to come into any very large extent to recoup, or piece out, either the employers or employees. It should not have meant any such thing, because anything that will better the community and the conditions of employment of trade and labour would mean that there would be a reasonable wage and reasonable and continuous employment to enable employees to live. That would be the assumption. It was the European War, I suppose, that created chaos and the conditions that brought us into touch with these uncovenanted benefits given by the State itself absolutely. This uncovenanted benefit was, I think, rightfully described as a dole, because there is nothing given in return for it, yet the Assistant Minister in charge of the Bill states that it is only a loan. For my part I do not see how it is going to be repaid, or where the repayment is to come from, or under what conditions it can be secured from those who profited by it or who have obtained it. I think there is no possibility or machinery by which it could be obtained again. In any case I think it is a very unworthy thing to continue. Some extraordinary things are taking place generally with regard to the encouragement that one would think should be given here to industries to enable employment to be given, and to reduce, as far as possible, unemployment. I have been told recently about large contracts going to England from our own Army and Government authorities for what could be done here at home. I do not know. I have heard the Postmaster-General heckled very seriously about a 20 per cent. preference he was supposed to have given to home manufactures. He was hauled over the coals for it. I do not know whether this 20 per cent. has been saved by giving the contracts across the Channel, but I am told that they have been given without the contractors here being given an opportunity to tender for them. That is what I have been told, I do not know whether it is true or not, but I am putting it to the Government that if these facts are correct they should rectify the matter, because after all the main thing is to give such encouragement to our own industries as to reduce the amount of unemployment. That would be limited by putting on a stamp both by employer and employee, and by this means bridge the gulf between adversity and prosperity in trade. I do not think you ought to tackle it half way, but you should tackle it seriously and bridge that gulf by the stamp, and do away with uncovenanted benefits. Let the periods of adversity and prosperity be joined by means of that bridge. That would be the sensible and straight way to do it. Deputy Johnson said that the farmer should be recouped for the reasonable cost of production. That is the whole thing in dispute. What is "reasonable cost of production?" The consumer says there must not be "reasonable cost of production," or the stuff should be cheaper. The whole thing hangs on the word "reasonable." If that adjective were left out it would be all right. "Reasonable cost of production" is very indefinite. We cannot reconcile it with anything, and the consumer will not be reconciled by adjectives. He wants to see that the price is brought into reconciliation with his own requirements and his own ability to meet it. We have heard a lot about protection and free trade. These are important subjects, and will have to be very carefully thought out before we decide whether we should have protection or otherwise. The question should be carefully considered before the Nation engages in such things. My own opinion is that when it is carefully thought out it will in some way assist in giving us a less volume of employment in the country, and it may perhaps leave the Assistant Minister for Trade and Commerce in less difficulty in framing schemes and devising policies for the relief of the abnormal unemployment that prevails not only in this country, but all over the world to-day.

I quite agree with some of the remarks on uncovenanted benefit. Deputy Johnson mentioned the case of some of the County Councils that did not stamp the employees' cards, and he stated that if they were compelled to comply with the regulations that perhaps the unemployment fund would be in a better position than it is, and that it would not be necessary to give so much uncovenanted benefit as is being given. I have an instance of the Cork Co. Council. I complained to the Ministry of Trade and Commerce on a number of occasions in the last six months of the fact that the Cork Co. Council was not stamping its employees' cards, with the result that when these men were unemployed they could not get the State unemployment benefit at the local Labour Exchanges. Some of the cases I handed over to the Ministry of Industry and Commerce, and they were taken up, and these particular men got the unemployment benefit. But the method adopted by the Cork County Council was this: When they were approached by the Ministry of Trade and Commerce, they considered the matter some months ago; they decided that they would still continue to refuse to stamp their employees' cards, but that they would treat each individual case as it arose. In other words, as long as a man is employed we will ignore the regulations and go ahead, but as soon as he is unemployed and seeks a benefit we will stamp his card in order not to impose too great a hardship on him. There may be other cases in the country, similar to the Cork County Council and the Minister for Trade and Commerce should look into the matter, and see that the Cork County Council does its duty towards its employees and the unemployment fund.

Now, Deputy McGoldrick mentioned something about giving encouragement to industry, and Clause 7 of the Bill aims at encouraging employers to give more employment than they would give in the ordinary course of events. I quite agree that it is necessary that as much employment as possible should be given in order to avoid compelling people to try and exist on the dole. I would like also to say that I think that whatever department of the Government is in charge of the making of awards under the Shaw Commission ought to speed up some of these awards. That might help the Ministry of Trade and Commerce considerably in giving this much needed employment. Deputy Gorey mentioned, as I think he mentioned every time he speaks, the cost of building houses, and he gave us to understand that it was the small output of the building tradesman that prevented small houses being built. I would like to mention that, according to circumstances every man gets a different reason for things being done or not being done. I was in Mallow on Sunday, and was speaking to some of the traders whose houses were burnt in 1920. They told me that the Shaw Commission appeared to be wanting to shelve the compensation claims for building. They stated that up to date there had been no award made in regard to the re-building of demolished buildings in Mallow, and they mentioned the case of Mr. Coote who was awarded damage to the extent of £14,000 although he stated that he would not rebuild his house.

I think these references to the Shaw Commission are completely out of order.

It is a question of employment and unemployment.

It is nearly as much out of order as Deputy Gorey's reference to non-production in the building trade. I am ruling on the question. It has nothing to do with the Employment Bill.

We have had nine contributions to the debate and they force me to the conclusion that the introduction of this Bill and the indulgence of An Ceann Comhairle was a godsend to many Deputies, as it gave them an opportunity of ventilating their opinions on many matters. This Bill, I desire to point out, is a mere emergency measure in order to tide over a difficult period, and if it does not pass it will entail considerable suffering on a large number of persons unemployed. As regards Deputy Johnson's objection to Section 7 I would point out that the Section is not mandatory. The employer "may" and the workman "may" and each is left perfect freedom to choose either to agree or not to what the Minister may ask him to do and what may be put up to him by the Ministry. We did think that within certain limits it might be possible to secure for a number of weeks greater sums of money to certain people by doing particular work than would be secured to them under the contributions they would receive from insurance benefits alone. We are not dreadfully enamoured of Clause 7, which was put in more or less as an experiment. If Deputy Johnson considers that Section 7 of the Bill runs counter to what might be at the basis of collective bargaining or any trades union principle we are quite prepared to discuss the matter fully with him and meet any objection he may raise. I would, however, emphasise the fact that we did consider it and we thought that in certain circumstances it might be a benefit to the worker that instead of getting 20/- a week we gave him an opportunity of getting his ordinary rate of wages for the same number of weeks as he would be getting unemployment benefit alone I may point out that it would mean additional labour for the Ministry With regard to the question of the whole thing being a dole or not a dole, one Deputy seemed to answer the other; one maintained it was and another that it was not, and I suppose we are asked to act as umpires and say what it is. Up to the present we have no contributions to make up for moneys paid out, and so far it is right to call it a dole, but we do hope that it is a loan to be paid back. It is intended that the monies paid out under uncovenanted benefit shall be made good by future contributions. There were so many points which I do not think were actually pertinent to this insurance scheme that I do not think that I should endeavour to follow them. We had, for example, Deputy Johnson's subsidy for land cultivation. That, I think, would hardly be a matter for the consideration of the Ministry of Trade and Commerce. This Bill supposes that there would be unemployment and that unemployment exists, otherwise there can be no reason for the introduction of this Bill. Deputy Johnson says that we have adopted the worst part of the Swiss Bill and left out the fiscal clauses, if I might term them, of the Swiss unemployment insurance scheme. We have not overlooked these, but I thought that I had made it perfectly plain for everybody what we were doing in connection with the fiscal policy of the Government.

I think a great many of the Deputies who spoke on the Second Reading of the Bill must not have been present when I stated exactly what the Government's decision was with regard to that. I said "arrangements are under consideration for instituting at once an inquiry"—I did not indicate a Commission nor did I say that the Reconstruction Commission was to carry out this inquiry, and I hope it is not to be encumbered in its very arduous labours by having this inquiry thrust upon it—"into the effect on industry and trade in the Saorstát of the fiscal system we have inherited, and as to whether any modifications in, or additions to, the duties comprised in that system are desirable in order to develop industry and trade. Everything to secure extensions in the present scope of employment, consistent with a careful examination of all the factors of the problem will, therefore, be done." That is exactly what I did say. I am not going to debate the fiscal policies raised by several speakers which should come up, I think, under the Finance Bill. Deputy Johnson will see, therefore, that we have had under consideration the question of restrictions on imports. We have had that under consideration, but I do not think that any Government in a position similar to that of the present Government of the Saorstát, or rather the Government of the Saorstát in its present position, would be well advised to impose restrictions on imports without having an expert inquiry into the advisiability of that imposition, and expert advice as to what particular industries that imposition should properly apply to. Deputy Johnson also spoke of non-compliance and how far employers and employees were responsible in view of the advice that had been tendered them, perhaps even by the introducer of the Bill. I can assure the Deputy that I never advised anybody not to stamp his or her insurance card, and as far as I can remember, no such advice was offered from the Second Dáil. My recollection is quite the reverse that it was rather suggested——

Will the Minister define the difference between the Second Dáil and the Sinn Fein organisation?

That is the apex of irrelevancy. I hope the Minister will not think of doing such a thing.

As to compliance or non-compliance with the Insurance Act, we are going to insist now with regard to the Cork County Council, other bodies, and private individuals who fail to comply with their obligations under the Insurance Act that they will have to take the responsibility for their actions.

Several other interesting points were raised by Deputy Johnson, but I do not know that they are matters for consideration under an insurance scheme. He suggests training for young and unemployed persons. That would hardly be within the scope of an Insurance Bill, although I agree it is a very interesting point. It is one in which a trial has been made, and made with great success, in such a matter as the training of domestic servants in housecraft.

The question of the adaptability of the Act to the country is a debatable point. I agree with Deputy Johnson's dictum that every man has a right to work. Every man has a right to live—it is the fundamental and indefeasible right of man, perhaps superior to all other rights. In the present circumstances we are dealing with a present state of unemployment. The fact is there. Unemployment exists, and until work can be found we have to provide for this unemployment. Deputy Johnson, Deputy Milroy, and some other Deputies here are members of a Reconstruction Commission, and it is up to that Commission to put schemes up to the Government for consideration. The Commission has been set up for that, and I do not think any Government would be justified in expending public money without due investigation as to whether the expenditure would be profitable or not to the State. The Commission on Reconstruction has been set up to investigate schemes of useful public work, to report to the Ministry, and the Ministry will undoubtedly press on the Government if the report, in the opinion of the experts is satisfactory. All those questions of protection dealt with in several of the other speeches are really matters for discussion in the Finance Bill. A lot of them would have been obviated had some of the Deputies been present when I stated exactly what the policy of the Government was with regard to the inquiry to be set up at once to investigate whether protection could be beneficially imposed.

May I point out that the Minister is wrong in saying that the Commission on Reconstruction was set up to investigate schemes for social development? It was not set up for anything of the kind. It declined that duty.

Question: "That the Unemployment Insurance Bill, 1923, be read a second time," put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 9th May.
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