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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 3 May 1923

Vol. 3 No. 9

FINANCE BILL, 1923—SECOND STAGE.

I beg to move the Second Reading of this Finance Bill. Most of the matter which is involved in the Bill has already been the subject of consideration by the Dáil, and resolutions in connection with it have been adopted. Generally speaking, the taxation existing before the introduction of this Bill has been continued, and, while a good deal of criticism may be passed on a policy of that kind, it is fairly obvious that unless there is a remarkable reduction of expenditure the taxation must be continued at a high rate. The expenditure for the coming year is considerable, and the taxation will not be sufficient to cover that expenditure. It is hoped during the course of the year to limit expenditure on certain services and steps will be taken to that end; but it is not possible to promise, at any time during the present or the coming year, any reduction in the taxation already imposed. During recent years very considerable additions to the ordinary outgoings of National expenditure have been added to the cost of the State, and, if additional services are required, it must be obvious to Deputies that additional taxation will also be required.

This Finance Bill is, in certain respects, much more exhaustive and far reaching, in respect of certain particulars, than has been the practice here. A good deal of criticism of it has been printed. The Press has taken up the question of certain steps that are supposed to be taken in the Bill to get in Income Tax. It must be remembered it is only fair to those who are paying, loyally and with a due sense of their civic responsibility, very considerable sums into the Exchequer in respect of Income Tax, that they have got some rights, and that it is due to them, as well as to the State, that every person properly chargeable to this particular tax should pay his quota. That is all that is contemplated under the provisions of this Act. For one reason or another, for some years past, certain people have evaded the payment of this tax. In one journal it has been mentioned that we were responsible for that. We have denied it. In another journal it was mentioned that, as Minister for Local Government, I had advocated that policy. In connection with Local Government it is right to say as to ordinary grants properly payable to local authorities and included in the Finance Bill belonging to the Legislature that imposed taxation or distributed moneys, that any interruption of the ordinary flow of these grants into the particular channels for which they were prescribed was taken by us as an invasion of the rights of Local Authorities. We took up the view then, where those grants were not paid, where they were withheld, that the Local Authorities were justified in withholding from payment any sums, not Income Tax only, because that was the least of all the sums, but any sums due to the British Government at the time. It was not contemplated at the time that there was to be a repudiation of those debts. At no time was that policy put forward, or subscribed to or recommended. During the period in question many letters were addressed from the Local Government Department to Local Authorities advising them that, in respect of sums due by them, there should be provision included in their estimates. The fact that they did not pay these sums was immaterial, and the wisdom of that is at once apparent. There were certain Local Authorities throughout the country owing more money to the British Government than they received from the British Government, and if provision was not made in the estimates for the payment of these sums, then when the ultimate financial settlement would come about these Local Authorities would, in the ordinary way, have to include in their estimates sums far beyond their power of repayment. Certain Local Authorities lost far more, immeasurably more, than they were liable for. Other Local Authorities should have paid more than they were entitled to receive, and at no time did we ever suggest that there should be a repudiation of those liabilities. Even those who recommended the non-payment of Income Tax had never in their minds, as far as any of us were aware, any repudiation of lawful debts. Payment of Income Tax was suspended by various orders of the community. Those who comprised the vast majority of the people were not liable to Income Tax, but their political friends would not on principle pay that tax. Those who were politically opposed to Sinn Fein at that time saw at once a golden opportunity for the non-payment of Income Tax.

Those are the people—a great number of them—who now seek to escape this particular liability which, had it not been for the Treaty, they would willingly have paid to the British Government long ago. In any case, no matter who the individual was who owed money in this respect, he cannot be allowed to gain that advantage over his less fortunate brother who paid his way either since we took over the affairs of this country or who paid previously. There is no real injustice, but there is a good deal of interested criticism of these proposals. It is not proposed, at any time, to penalise either the individual or the firm which has not discharged its liabilities in this respect, and every possible facility will be afforded in every case to meet the circumstances of the time, and to arrange for payment by instalments of any sums due. I think the Dáil will realise that to start off in the first year we have full and complete power to impose taxation, with a policy of wiping off debts, is not one that can be recommended. We are now faced with very heavy burdens. We have fairly big responsibilities for the present time, and will have for the future, and every citizen is expected to bear his share of that burden. During the course of the discussion it was mentioned that certain of the indirect taxes fell rather heavily upon one section of the community. They are not relieved of that liability by allowing certain people who have escaped liability for another tax off very lightly in this matter. The proposals we have put forward in respect of certain classes of the community are proposals that have been considered very carefully. We do not know of any other means that will rake into the State the money due to it. The sum involved is a couple of millions. Daily and practically from every Ministry demands are coming in in one form or another for public expenditure, and it is right that they all should know that unless the taxes are collected the public services will suffer and the public credit will be diminished, and it will not be possible for us to negotiate the necessary loans which will be required in this particular year in order to bridge the difference between the revenue and expenditure.

If it be proposed to lower taxation, and there has been some indication of that particular line from certain Deputies, well then expenditure must also be lowered. Very drastic powers are asked for in connection with the non-payment of Income Tax in various parts of the country. The phase that we are passing through renders that necessary. I think it will be plain to Deputies that where there is perhaps the most democratic Constitution in the world that there are certain people inclined to impose upon the sound democratic principles of that Constitution, and certain people who think that because they have certain rights they can escape certain duties. That is not the principle of true democracy, and that is one that the Executive Council cannot subscribe to. There are various other incidental provisions which can, perhaps, best be dealt with during the Committee Stage of this Bill. It is, generally speaking, on the lines of the Resolutions and discussions that have taken place up to this. It is proposed to take power under the Bill to permit of the exemption of certain securities from taxation. That is in contemplation at the present moment. These securities are in the nature of the Savings Certificates that have already been taken up—at least a security of much the same kind has been taken up in England and in the area of the Northern Parliament. It affords persons who are unable to purchase big blocks of securities an opportunity of lending money to the State. A certain sum of this money is paid now, and in, say, five years time a certain lump sum is paid. The power that is proposed to be taken here will exempt the difference between the two sums from Income Tax. I do not think there is any necessity to labour the matter any further, and I formally move the Second Reading of the Finance Bill.

There has been some discussion in the Seanad, and, following the discussion in the Seanad, certain discussions in Committee regarding the definition of a Money Bill, and the position the Seanad will be placed in in case of certain happenings, because of the shortness of notice provided for, as to whether the Bill was a Money Bill or not. I think that it might be well to be told, at this early stage, so that the Seanad would know where it stood in this matter, whether this is a Money Bill. One would expect that of all the Bills that might be introduced the one that most certainly should be dubbed a Money Bill would be the Finance Bill. But I am very doubtful whether this is a Money Bill. A Money Bill means a Bill which contains only provisions dealing with all or any of the following subjects:—Imposition, repeal, remission, alteration, or regulation of taxation; imposition for payment of debt or other financial purposes, charges upon public moneys, etc.; supply, appropriation of money, raising of money, and so on. A good part of this Bill deals with the method of collection of debt. It hands over powers to certain officials regarding the collection of debt; but I think it could be successfully argued that, carefully and fairly considered, this is not a Money Bill, and therefore the Seanad will have proper opportunities, supposing it were to go through the Dáil without alteration, of analysing it and throwing it out. I hope they will throw it out if it goes from the Dáil as it stands at present.

The Minister has re-stated the argument in favour of empowering employers to collect from their servants amounts claimed by the State, which are only debts by a stretch of the ethics at least, if not of the legalities, of the case. The proposal is to command employers to pay the debt and then to collect it from the employees, and the Commissioners will indicate to the employer the kind of procedure he may adopt regarding the instalments. But the employer is to be held responsible for the payment of a debt due by another. I am not primarily concerned with the employer's grievance in the matter. I am concerned with the principle embodied in this proposal. I repeat what I said in Committee, when discussing the resolutions, that there is no argument that can be used in favour of this proposal which could not be used with equal justice in support of a claim that an employer should be called upon to collect a debt for clothing or groceries or any other commodity. The power, of course, is, as is the habit of the Ministry, left to the Commissioners or to the collector to make remissions and regulations and give abatements, and generally to use discrimination as to what is reasonable. We know that during the period in which the income tax was withheld—again, as I honestly believe, with the connivance, if not by the direction, of those who are at present in the position of a Government here—neither returns were sent in nor claims for exemption or abatement made.

Those people who are supposed to owe these arrears of income tax are alleged to owe certain sums which have been fixed by the Inland Revenue officers, and there has been, in fact, no opportunity to judge the fairness of these assessments. I do not know whether it is contemplated that an opportunity will be given for the alleged debtors to contest the assessments and to allow for a revision of the demand, but, having arrived at a revised demand, there is no provision in the Bill to say how these deductions are to be made. All authority in this matter is left to the Commissioners. We are to assume that they will be reasonable. They may be men that could not be anything but reasonable, and it may be argued that you will always get a better chance by leaving these matters to the discretion of the official appointed, rather than to set regulations for him. But, judging by the anxiety of the Minister for Finance to get in money, and the close association that the Commissioners have had with the Minister, they would be rather inclined to take their cue from the Minister rather than from, shall I say, the Minister of Justice, if there were such.

But there is an unexpected provision in this Bill which certainly, to my mind, takes it out of the region of a Money Bill. The Finance Ministry is evidently jealous of the Minister for Home Affairs. Some months ago the Minister for Home Affairs piloted through the Dáil and the Seanad the Enforcement of Law (Occasional Powers) Act. The Dáil seemed to feel that this was a very unfortunate Act, and they passed it with hesitation and doubt, and only on the assurance that it was an Act for an emergency, which would be used with discretion, that the Minister himself would exercise that discretion, and that it was only to last for six months. While it was not so stated, the impression was conveyed that, in effect, it would apply only to the farmers. I say the Minister for Home Affairs was successful in piloting that Act through, and secured its passing on the plea that it was an emergency Act, and that it was only to last for six months. But the Minister for Finance, as I say, was jealous of the success of the Minister for Home Affairs, and he said, "I will go one better; I will take those clauses out of the Enforcement of Law Act, I will introduce them into the Finance Bill, and I will make them permanent. They will not only apply to the farmers; they will apply to all people who owe, or who may owe, income tax." Again I say that these are provisions that ought not to be put into a Finance Bill, that ought not to be put into any Bill, and everything that was said by the Minister for Home Affairs in justifying the Act which he piloted through because of the emergency may be said against the provisions in this Bill which are put in as permanent provisions.

Why should a debt to the State for income tax be placed in a different category to a debt to a Town Council or a County Council or a merchant or tailor, or any other person in regard to its collection? We find about a dozen clauses taken word for word from the temporary emergency Act, called the Enforcement of Law (Occasional Powers) Act, and transferred to this Finance Bill for the collection of arrears of income tax. Bear in mind what that means. The collector may issue a certificate to the UnderSheriff, and then all the provisions of that Act which were passed with so much hesitation will immediately begin their operation simply on the word of the income tax collector. The Dáil is asked to pass that measure, and the plea will be made, I have no doubt, that this is a Money Bill and that the Seanad cannot touch it. The responsibility is to be wholly with the Dáil; but I am going to ask the Deputies to refuse a Second Reading to this Bill. "Whenever any person makes default in paying any sum which may be levied upon him in respect of income tax, and notwithstanding that the defaulter is not named in the assessment of the tax," a collector may set these provisions into motion. That may mean something that is innocent, "notwithstanding that the defaulter is not named," but it strikes me as rather curious, and may make the offence, as I call it, even worse in this Bill than it was in the Enforcement of Law Act. So much for that provision.

Now we take Section 4. We have some reference to the Double Taxation (Relief) Act:—

"Notwithstanding any provision contained in any Act of the Parliament of the late United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, the interest on all securities issued by the Government of the United Kingdom aforesaid subject to the condition that the interest thereon should be exempt from income tax, shall be liable to the income tax for the time being charged in Saorstát Eireann, but subject to any arrangement for relief which may for the time being exist with the Government of Great Britain under or by virtue of the Double Taxation (Relief) Act, 1923 (No. 8 of 1923), or otherwise."

We passed the Double Taxation (Relief) Act, empowering the Minister to make arrangements for relief, but now we are asked to pass a Bill empowering the Minister to make arrangements outside the provisions of the Double Taxation (Relief) Act—to make any arrangement he wishes. I wonder is that the intention? Has the Minister had an inspiration since the Double Taxation (Relief) Act was passed, and found a way to relieve investors in Irish securities, who may happen to live abroad, from even other liabilities? Then we have another provision, Section 18, to which the Minister has referred. It is a provision, as far as I can read it, inserted with the intention of encouraging investors living outside Saorstát Eireann to invest money in Government Stock, and it is giving them a preference—a decided preference —over Irish purchasers of that Stock. It enables the Minister to exempt from any tax imposed by the Saorstát any securities issued for loans, provided that the holder of these securities resides outside Saorstát Eireann. If a resident in the Saorstát invests money in these securities, he will have to pay income tax at the full rate of, say, 5/-, but if a resident in Britain invests in the loan he would ordinarily have to pay income tax at 5/-, the Irish rate, of which the Saorstát Government would receive 2/9 and the British Government 2/3. Under the Bill, as I read it, the resident in England or Scotland will pay income tax at the British rate of 4/6, the whole of which will go to the British Government, and we shall get nothing. Apparently the intention is to create exceptionally favourable terms for investors from overseas. I may be wrong in the conclusion and in the reading of the effect of this, but, subject to correction, it works out in this way. Supposing that a loan of £20,000,000 were called, of which £10,000,000 came from Great Britain, and the interest were 5 per cent.; the amount of interest payable would be £500,000, and, allowing for the double taxation relief, the loss in revenue would be £68,750, and this is a permanent provision. I feel that the Minister, in drafting this Bill, is showing a lack of faith in himself, in the Government, and in the people. He does not believe that there will be any sense of loyalty to the State or that we are going to have a period of settlement and development. "Blood and iron" seems to be the policy: "We have got to fix certain taxes, and we have got to collect them by the most drastic means; we do not believe that the people are going to respond to the calls that the Government must impose; we believe that we can only draw the financial needs of the State by forcing these people to pay in the most drastic manner possible; we have no faith in their loyalty to the Free State; we have no faith in our ability to inspire them with that loyalty; we can only use these most extraordinary coercive powers for the collection of debts to the State; we cannot collect without using these powers, and therefore we must fortify ourselves, because we do not believe we can collect money otherwise." I would very much prefer that such powers should not be asked for until it had been proved absolutely impossible to get money otherwise. I think that by putting forward a Bill of this kind you are simply asking the people to resist you. You are saying that you have no faith, as I said before, in yourselves, and no faith in the people over whom you are presiding. I believe that those defects that I have called attention to are so grave that they warrant the Dáil in refusing a Second Reading, and I ask the Dáil not to give a Second Reading to this Bill.

Deputy Johnson has two political legs. If he continues to use them judiciously he should go far. On the one hand, there are days when his mood is that the State is everything, the individual a shade less than nothing; the State should take the individual from the day of his birth and escort him to his grave, poking into every phase of his existence, catering for his every need, taking responsibility for every detail of his existence. That is Deputy Johnson's mood here on some days, and that is one of his political legs. His other political leg is when he rises as the stern champion of the rights of the individual, and says to the State, "Hands off." I was interested to note that he considers a liability to the State as having no stronger ground, no greater claim, than a debt for clothing, groceries, or any other commodity.

Hear, hear.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

Well, it seems to me that neither Deputy Johnson nor anyone else can have it both ways. Unlike Deputy Johnson, I am not a doctrinaire; unlike Deputy Johnson, who manages to be a doctrinaire in two directions as it suits him, I am not a doctrinaire even in one, but am inclined in these grave matters to aim at steering a middle course, remembering, on the one hand, that man is a gregarious animal, and, on the other, that he is equipped with two uncomfortable things called reason and free-will. But if the State has this great and far-reaching responsibility to the individual that Deputy Johnson propounds and advocates at times, then assuredly the claims of the State on the individual to clear off his liabilities must be great—must be greater, for instance, than the debt for clothing, groceries, or any other commodity. In other words, the State's claim on the individual, in view of these overwhelming responsibilities, must be greater than the claim of one individual as against another individual within the State.

This Bill deals with that unpopular question of income tax. Now, I want to put this view, that the person who evades his responsibility under that particular tax is throwing a burden on someone else. If four men are carrying a piano, and one of them discovers that he has a thirst and adjourns for a drink, he leaves an unfair burden on the other three while he is refreshing himself. The administration of the country over a given period, for a financial year, costs a certain sum. The citizen, or the citizens, who throughout that year evade their responsibilities and liabilities, and cheat the State, throw a burden on to the remainder of the body of the taxpayers. That is a view we want to get clearly into our heads. When we get it clearly into our heads we will cease to have any maudlin sympathy for the defaulter or to express any strong view against methods taken to correct defaulting. In my time I had to do with Local Government affairs under the Second Dáil, and I preached day in and day out, week in and week out, that doctrine with regard to the payment of rates—that the man who refused to pay rates was picking someone's pockets, and the man who refused to pay his proper share in the cost of administration of the country is picking someone's pockets, and picking perhaps many people's pockets. Now, the State has, I agree, great responsibility to the citizen. We are trying to recognise that. We have been trying to recognise it for a long period now; but the citizens here must visualise the change and must realise their position in relation to the State. That change will not come at once. That negative attitude which we adopted towards the machinery of administration in the country when it was not ours, and was not in any real sense responsible to the people, will not disappear in a couple of months or a couple of years, and the precautions that the Minister for Finance has thought it fit and wise to insert in this Bill are merely a recognition of that fact, and a recognition of the fact that if he is to collect the taxation of the country, and if he is to ensure that the revenue comes in that will enable us to do many, if not all, of the fine things that are advocated from time to time from the benches opposite, then he must get very real and full powers. The State is not something set up to be cursed by the people. The State is not something set up to be cheated by the people. The State is the people. "The State," says the late Tom Kettle, "is you and me and the man around the corner," and what we are asking is that you will not connive at or acquiesce in the cheating of you and me and the man around the corner by some selfish individual.

There is criticism of the clause which puts on the employer a certain duty in relation to tax payable by his employees. My mind goes back to a case where the highest Court at the time adjudged the salary of a member of Parliament was attachable in payment of his debt. What is asked here is a decision that the salary of a person in employment may be attached to the extent of his debt to the State—of his debt to the people. There is nothing revolutionary in that. Deputy Johnson described the mental attitude of the Executive Council as one of blood and iron. It is not. It is not even an attitude of blood and gold, or blood and silver, or blood and copper.

Blood and lead.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

It is a perfectly reasonable attitude, and an attitude inspired by justice and fair play to the citizens in the mass, as against a few selfish individuals who rob the community's pocket. Conditions have changed so quickly and so vastly that people here have not yet realised the change. It is not now a question of withholding something from the coffers of the British Treasury. It is a question of withholding something from an Irish Exchequer which must deal with the needs of the Irish people, who must develop this country in such a way that its population can live here at home, and that this will not be simply a breeding-ground for foreign countries. If we are to build up our country, and if we are to provide a home and living for its citizens here, then the taxes that are imposed by the people's representatives sitting here in Parliament must be paid equally by all citizens in proportion to their income. To say otherwise would be to say that the man who is selfish, the man who is cute, the man who is dishonest, could thrive at the expense of his fellow-citizens and at the expense of the people in the mass. I want a clear declaration for one leg or the other; either this is strictly a question that the individual should regard the State as a thing which he may and could cheat, that he has no more responsibility to it than he has to his tailor, or there is a definite ground for saying that in view of the State's big responsibility to the people it must get more far-reaching powers for collecting its debts than are at the disposal of ordinary individual traders in the country. I simply rose to point out that, and to point out the ease with which the Deputy can slip from one theory into another, with which he can walk to-day on an extreme Socialist leg and to-morrow be a champion of the rights of the individual.

I had intended to make use of this occasion to press very earnestly for the setting up of a Commission of Inquiry into the whole Irish fiscal system, and I was very glad indeed yesterday to hear the announcement made that such a Commission of Inquiry was about to be set up. That enables me to curtail what I intended to say very considerably. I was greatly surprised in listening to the Minister for Finance to find that he devoted his whole time in expounding his Finance Bill to us to defending certain measures it is proposed to take in connection with income tax, measures which obviously, although he tried to defend them as best he could, he realised were difficult to defend. He did not tell us a single word about the most important matter, namely, the inquiry he is going to set up. I ask the Minister to take the Dáil into his confidence in this matter and tell us what he proposes to do.

I listened very carefully to what Deputy Whelehan, the Assistant Minister for Industry and Commerce, told us yesterday, and I hope that the scope of the inquiry is intended to cover a much wider field than that indicated by the Deputy. I should like in particular to know that the Commission of Inquiry will have authority to examine the whole question of the incidence of taxation. It is not merely a question of whether you will have to take duties off this and put them on to that. The first and most important question is what you propose to do to put the taxes on the shoulders that can bear them. That, I trust, is the intention, but it was not made plain. We all know that every Government is tempted to get as much money as it can by indirect taxation. It would be a salutary thing if a Commission of this kind, outlining a special fiscal policy for Ireland, emphasised the fact that by far the justest tax is the graduated direct tax. It would be a welcome thing if such a Commission as that recommended the removal of taxes that press upon those people who can least bear them, and dwelt upon the direct tax with a view to making it a much bigger source of revenue than it is now, whether it is income or any other tax that may be advised.

Another question occurs to me in this connection, with which I should like to know the Commission of Inquiry will be competent to deal. It is a question of principle, which ought to be decided at the outset. Let it not be forgotten that we are laying the foundations of a new Irish fiscal system when we act on the report of a Committee of Inquiry of this kind. The question is this: is it proposed in the future to impose taxes upon imports for the purpose of protection, or for the purpose of revenue, or for both? Are we going to have such anomalies as exist at present continued? Are we going to have a motor tax, imposed for protection in England, and continued here for the purpose of revenue, and a tobacco tax proposed for revenue in England and for protection here? Let us have a definite principle established.

Let it be clear that the Commission of Inquiry will have power to go through the whole field, and recommend a definite fiscal system suitable for the needs of this country. In this connection, too, it will be most important to know that the Commission will have power to examine into and make recommendations upon the question of protecting the agricultural interest. We all know that England is at last beginning to discover that there is such a thing as an agricultural interest, and it is quite probable that England will take steps to look after that agricultural interest in a paternal way, and in a way that may not suit some of our people at all. Supposing England does take measures to protect her agricultural interest, what is this country going to do to protect her agricultural interest? I raise these points now just briefly because I am anxious to know that the Commission of Inquiry which is going to be set up will have a comprehensive scope, and that none of those matters will be shut out, because its terms of reference are too narrow.

No fear of that, judging from precedents.

I may, I think, pass to another matter. Before doing so I wish to urge upon the Government that the present would be an opportune moment for the setting up of an Irish Tariff Board. Whatever be the report of the Commission of Inquiry I suppose it is clear that some measure of protection will be recommended, and, without dwelling upon the matter at any unnecessary length, I suppose one may take it that everybody will realise that in a country which is starting out economically at the very beginning of its career it is essential that there should be persons entrusted with the duty of getting together the necessary statistics to advise the Government and the people from month to month and from year to year upon questions touching fiscal policy. I should like to see a board appointed of persons as far as possible divorced from vested interests, whose duty it would be to do for Ireland the kind of work that is done internationally by the International Institute in Brussels, the collation of foreign statistics so far as they bear upon our interest and Irish statistics. I should like the Ministry and the people to have a board to which application could be made at a given moment when any particular tax was proposed for advice based on definite statistics. It ought to be possible for a Minister or for any group of people interested in a proposed tax to obtain from a board of experts in the subject statistics and particulars showing not merely the likely incidence of the tax and the likely produce of it, but what reaction it is likely to have in our dealings with other countries, and what effects, good and bad, may be hoped from it. It is quite clear that you cannot leave a matter of this kind merely to the Ministry of Finance, however expert the men who are the financial advisers of the Ministry may be, because it is a whole-time job for several men. Other countries have followed this line successfully, and you will not get in this country people with expert knowledge to advise you as to a particular proposed scheme from the experience of foreign countries who have tried the proposed scheme, or advise you as to the likely results of a supposed impost, unless you have an expert body charged with that duty, and with getting from day to day and month to month the statistics necessary. I urge upon the Ministry seriously to consider the setting up of a Board like that.

I want to pass to a matter Deputy Johnson has already touched on. That is a question connected with the income tax. I notice it is always dangerous to tackle the Minister for Finance on the question of his collection of the arrears of income tax. We must not remind him of the income tax offices that were burned. That is ancient history. We must not say anything about what happened two or three years ago. I tried to bring the matter home to the Minister, in a question yesterday, by referring to the unfortunate victims in his own Department, I should say in his own former Department of Local Government. I hoped that their fate might touch his heart, but I hoped in vain. The Minister assures us that he always intended income tax to be paid. Some people may make rude comments about the way his Government always intended income tax to be paid. It should be remembered that he was a Minister then, and as a Minister of the Government he had under him a large number of employees. Now, it was his plain duty, if he intended that income tax was to be paid, to deduct it at the source when he was paying these people their salaries, and well he knows that. It would have been fair play if he had told these people, "Your salary is so much a year, but of course I must take the income tax off that for Dáil Eireann before I pay you." If that had been said they would have known where they were. The Minister and his Government pretended to give such and such a salary to their employees, and now they come along, three years after, and say: "Ha! ha! you did not pay the British Government any income tax, and you will have to pay us now, my boy." That does not strike me as playing the game. I invite the Minister to remember this, because the principle extends far beyond the Civil Service of Sinn Fein: I do not think this fact can be denied, that during those difficult years the coffers of Sinn Fein were filled by the voluntary gifts of money made by hundreds and thousands of people of small means. Many people, finding that Sinn Fein was strong enough to protect them against the payment of income tax, took advantage of that to hand over as a donation to the Prisoners' Dependents' Fund or to some other fund money that they would otherwise have paid in taxes. The generosity of our people during all that time has been a source of amazement not merely to people outside Ireland, but to people inside Ireland. Their generosity was phenomenal. Common prudence would have dictated to these people to set aside all that money for the year 1923 had they had an inkling of the information that in the year 1923 they would have been called upon all at once to pay what might mean to some as much as a whole year's salary by way of arrears of income tax. I say with some assurance that the people concerned got no notice whatever that there was any such intention lurking in the minds of the present President or his colleagues.

Now, the matter is made all the worse when you consider the very remarkable provisions of Section 7 of the Finance Bill. Section 7 has the innocent title "Recovery of Income Tax." It sounds all right and very simple, but when you read the section you find that it represents bureaucracy gone stark, staring mad. It says that whenever any person makes default in paying any sum which may be levied upon him in respect of income tax, and notwithstanding that the defaulter is not named in the assessment of the tax, the collector, who may be any Tom, Dick or Harry, and who has himself assessed the tax, and by whom the sum so in default is collectable, may issue a certificate to the Under Sheriff to seize. That is very dangerous ground, I think, as the Minister will find if he tries to force this section through. Now, there is a very cumbersome system of law in connection with income tax. Provision is made for sundry appeals from one official to another, but here the Minister, if you please, chooses to do away with all that. His appeal is to the bailiff.

The Under Bailiff.

We were told by the Minister for Home Affairs what a sacred thing a debt to the State is; a debt to the State must not be treated as a debt to your tailor, which, of course, you would never dream of paying. A debt to the State is something sacrosanct. The Minister overlooked the rather elementary fact that all these debts to the State are placed by law in a position of superiority to any other debts. In the case of bankruptcy they come first; in the case of an execution the State comes in and executes and takes what is due to it before anybody else. The State is in a position of priority. But the point here is that the State is to be allowed to enforce vi et armis the collection of a debt which is not ascertained to be due to it. If this section means anything, it means that because a gentleman charged with the duty of assessing you and me at what he thinks proper, is carrying out that duty according to his lights, he is entitled, whether his lights be dim or otherwise, as soon as he has made an assessment, to send in the sheriff, whether that assessment be right or wrong In this Bill it is not even provided that a demand must be made upon the person who is to pay the tax before the sheriff is sent in. As has already been pointed out, if you are an employer, and your name does not appear on the assessment at all as the person who is to pay taxes, you may nevertheless have a bailiff put in to collect taxes if one of your employees has not paid. We hear a great deal of talk about democracy, of our new democratic State, but I certainly shall find myself veering a very long way from democracy if democracy is going to be confused with bureaucracy. This is bureaucracy run mad. Just because any Tom, Dick or Harry, who happens to be an income tax collector, thinks proper to assess you and me at so much he can put his bailiff in if we do not pay. I am going to ask the Dáil to assert the view, and it is time that it were asserted, that a debt to the State should be recovered in the same way as any other debt, through a court of law. The Minister may set up a special income tax tribunal if he likes, but he ought to have a judge and a court to decide disputed cases. The collector is not the person who ought to be allowed to decide whether his assessment is right or wrong, or whether another collector's assessment is right or wrong. If a case is disputed, by all means bring it before your tribunal to decide, and if the decision is against the person who is here called a defaulter, let drastic action be taken to make the defaulter pay up. That is not what is proposed. If the Minister intends that there shall be a proper inquiry to prevent any excessive assessment from being levied in this way let him make such provision in the Bill. There is too much of this system of leaving it all to the Executive Officer. When Deputy Johnson complained that people would be made to pay arrears for several years all at once, the Minister for Finance answered that he would deal with them most leniently and that they would be given plenty of time. But he does not say so in the Bill. Is that to be done out of Executive power?

When the Sheriff's Act was being debated here the President and the Minister for Home Affairs both told us of the leniency that would be exercised in enforcing that Act. They have no business to be severe or lenient. What they should do is to put it down in law, and not merely say they will be lenient. That is not done here. I submit what is done here is wrong, because it authorises the collector, as soon as he finds a particular sum due according to his view, to come in and seize, or rather to make the Sheriff seize, goods for the amount claimed. I want to say this, I am aware that there are provisos in the English law authorising the seizure of defaulters' goods for income tax, but the Minister has taken care to depart from the English precedent. I am informed that in England this method of collecting income tax, by way of the Sheriff, is not in practice resorted to. However that may be, it can only be resorted to under certain safeguards. For instance, if a collector wants to break into your house for the purpose of recovering income tax, he cannot do it without going first to the Commissioners and getting from them a special warrant for the purpose, and then he can only do it in the day time; but these things, which are a dead letter in England, are going to be put into active operation here. At any rate, I ask the Dáil to say it is wrong to give the Executive this power. If the State has a claim for income tax at law, it can prove it like everybody else before a tribunal—a State tribunal if you like, but a legal tribunal, but one that does not consist of a Government official only. The principle of that is wrong.

The Minister for Home Affairs told us that it was merely a question of attaching a salary. Just as you attach a salary, he said, we propose to attach these debts due. But the fundamental difference which the Minister refuses to see is this: In the case of the attachment of salary, for instance, such attachment as that declared by the House of Lords to be legal on the salary of a member of Parliament, the attachment is to pay a certain debt due. What you are attaching is the result of a judgment declaring that so much is due. In this case you are attaching, if one can use so generous a term in respect of the procedure proposed, goods and chattels of citizens because "Mr. Collector A. B." chooses to consider that so much is a right sum for a man to pay in income tax. I want to tell the Dáil this, further, and I venture to think that the Law Adviser of the Ministry will not deny it, that in this peculiar form of seizure on behalf of the State the usual immunities and protection disappear completely, because the theory is that the Crown has come in to claim its own. The protection which particular chattels were given disappears, the protection to lodgers goes, the protection given to somebody else's goods against seizure vanishes too, so that not only is this method exceedingly drastic and harsh, but, if you once sanction this kind of thing, you are putting in the power of the Executive an authority which is not controlled even by the ordinary restraint imposed upon action of this kind. I do ask the Dáil in these circumstances to say that it will not be a party to imposing upon this country a form of bureaucracy which means that the Dáil might as well go out of business.

In the discussion that has taken place one would think, from the warmth that is being displayed, that it was an unheard-of thing to seize for public debts without an order of the Court. Now, as a matter of fact, of course it is not. We all know, or a great many of us know, that in the case of poor rates the rate collector goes in without appearing before a Court at all and seizes for the amount of the rates due. He has that power, but he does not often exercise it; but it is a salutary thing that he should have that power. Now, if it is correct and good public policy that Tom, Dick, or Harry, as he would be described as a rate collector, can walk in and seize goods for rates, then it cannot be such a terrible thing that a man who is a servant, not of a local authority but of the State, should be able to come in, or procure the Under-Sheriff to come in, and seize for a debt due to the State. There is really no substance at all in the talk about bureaucracy gone mad. What is proposed here is a thing that is already law in regard to another kind of debt, and it has not caused hardship or led to any ill results. It has not been abused, although the people by whom it might be exercised are not subject to the same control as servants of the State would be, whose action can be criticised very effectively in this Assembly and who can be brought to book. The powers sought here are absolutely on all fours with the powers of the rate collectors. It is quite a correct thing that these exceptional powers should be given. There is no sort of parity between debt due to a trader and debt due by way of rates or income tax. The trader has the option of not allowing that debt to become due, and he has the ordinary remedy and the further remedy, if you like, of not allowing the debt to become due. He gives credit of his own choice and free-will. The State or local authority has no option about allowing the debt to become due. It must become due, and it is not going too far to ask that there should be exceptional powers of recovery in view of the fact that it may become due independent of the wish of the State or the local authority.

I have no doubt at all these powers, just like the powers of the rate collector, will be used seldom and will be used sparingly. It is a very rare thing, indeed, for the rate collector to use these special powers. I believe it will be a rare thing for these special powers to be used, but it is a good thing that fairly strong powers should exist for recovery. I think it is a good thing, especially at the present time, when we may be up against a new form of attack, that these very effective powers should be put into the hands of those charged with the collection of the revenue. We have had people strike at the State by way of destruction of public property and by way of destruction of railroads. We do not know, in view of the peculiar temperament that has been shown, that they may not, when they give up warlike action, take to some such action as this. If there should be any attempt to continue to attack the State or obstruct the State by refusing, in any combined way, to pay the debts due to the State, then it is most desirable that there should be summary powers to meet any such attempt. A lot of these provisions in Section 7, that were taken out of the Occasional Powers Act, are provisions that might well, I think, be made the ordinary law of the land. There are things in the Occasional Powers Act that have an emergency character, but there are others that are only getting rid of safeguards that were obsolete. No one can doubt that in a democratic State you may safely put power into the hands of the Executive, and you may safely remove safeguards which are necessary when you have some form of autocracy. Take the question, as an illustration, of the power of internment. One can see that the power of internment might be much more dangerous in the hands of an autocratic Executive than in the hands of a democratic Executive, which has to face this Parliament, and which may meet defeat on the exercise of its powers if it cannot show good cause. The same argument applies to such a thing as the collection of taxation. No Executive could afford to abuse the strong powers that may be given it. We must assume that we will have a Parliament with independence and public spirit—a Parliament that will require from the Executive that due cause shall be shown when there is more than ordinary use of any specially strong powers that may be given it.

This whole discussion has to me the air of a storm in a teacup. It is divorced from reality. There are expressions of horror at provisions that are not new provisions, but which are practically the same as those which have been the law of the land, and which were used from time to time long before any of us here were born. In view of that, I think no case at all has been made against the giving of these powers. As regards other criticisms that have been offered in connection with the Finance Bill, they were, I suppose, pertinent. The whole question of tariffs and of the general system of taxation will have to be considered carefully. It is a question on which a decision should not be rushed. I think no reasonable member of the Dáil could have hoped, in view of the fact that all concerned with the carrying on of the Government have been occupied with the attack upon the State, that any great progress could have been yet made in consideration of these questions. They could not have been expected to be dealt with in any way in this Finance Bill. It could not have been expected that any changes would appear in it. It is, I suppose, a good opportunity to raise the matter, but consideration must be given to it very fully. We have now come to a time when attention will not be concentrated merely on preserving the State —when we can give our minds to questions of construction and reconstruction; when we will be able not merely to hold our ground, but when we must be prepared to go forward. I think it would be very reasonable criticism of another Finance Bill that it was not then possible to put forward every proposal on its merits as a piece of deliberate and considered policy; but for the present I think nothing can reasonably be expected except that we should carry on under the financial system that has come down to us.

At this stage the Leas-Cheann Comhairle took the Chair.

Before the Minister for Finance replies I wish to refer to a subject that I touched upon when the Resolutions were before the Dáil. I inquired whether it was not possible for the Minister to make the sources of taxation more extensive and include a tax upon betting. I wish the Minister to give us an idea of what the views of the Government may be upon this matter. I think myself it affords a fertile field for the men in charge of taxation in this country, and it is a tax that will not have any of the defects obtruded that we have heard mentioned here with regard to other collections. It is a tax which would probably be paid more freely than any other tax that you are setting your agents now to collect. The general question of tariffs is one that must be carefully considered, and when it is being considered—possibly by another Government—we should have arrived at the stage that will render it possible to formulate a system that will be fully advantageous to the interests of the country and to the interests of the taxpayers. With regard to the point raised regarding employers being made liable for the collection of income tax from their employees, I think there is a precedent for that in the English Insurance Act, in which they were made responsible for the collection of insurance money. It is, I think, wise enough procedure. I do not see anything wrong with it. As regards the other points raised I have not much to say. I think the Government are adopting the only sensible course they could adopt at the present time. The Occasional Powers Bill was passed with reservations, and the same thing applies in this case. I think the best attitude for Deputies to take is to stand behind the Government in doing the work they think should be done in order to bring about a sound and healthy financial condition of affairs in the country.

My heart bled for the Minister for Finance. He was accused of having no confidence whatever in the people of the Free State. That is practically, as we now see, to accuse the Executive Council of divided counsels. For no higher expression of confidence in the future, no more optimistic spirit could have been displayed than by the Minister for Local Government, who is satisfied that not merely this Dáil, but succeeding Parliaments of the Free State, will exercise a wise scrutiny over the acts of the Executive in the administration of the laws, and will see to it that the spirit and not the letter is what the subject will receive. What is really intended was indicated on more than one occasion here, that the Executive—in the ordinary sense of the word the officials of a subordinate department—will be carefully supervised by the Ministry, and that Departmental Orders will be issued moderating their zeal when political exigency demands it, or spurring them on to fresh effort where local political considerations might demand it.

On more than one occasion I have followed Deputy Johnson in protesting against allowing this idea of Ministerial interference with the Executive machine to be put forward even as an emergency proposal, and to ask even a measure of support for it even though that measure of support should extend no further than to look the other way when the Ministry are engaged in this interference. It is not fair to charge the Minister for Finance with having attempted, as Deputy Johnson says, to go one better than the Minister for Home Affairs in that Bill, which so many of us denounced as "a ferocious piece of legislation." What he really did is, he has gone one worse, not one better, because in the other case he proposed to add certain terrors to the administration of the County Courts— an old and well-established juridical system. Here he adds to the powers of a Department which is notorious, and has been always notorious, for the tyrannical spirit and the unreasonable spirit that has animated its meanest official. A few evenings ago I had the temerity to declare here that the meanest and the most subordinate official in the Income Tax Collection Department was not merely a petty tyrant, but a monstrous tyrant, and one of the officials expostulated with me the next day. I do now what I promised him to do, I make a withdrawal. I did on one occasion encounter a minor official, a clerk in the Dawson Street Office, who was actually civil and polite to me. Unfortunately I do not know his name, or I would mention it here by way of honour. To him I apologise when I said that all the officials were of the type I describe.

This is an emergency measure. The defence made by the Minister for Finance is that it is an emergency measure. It is absurd to complain that he has followed no principle. Of course, he has followed no principle. How could he? The Minister for Local Government told you that there has been no time to excogitate principles. There has been no time given to the Government to find out what it should do in the creation of an Irish fiscal system. It simply adopts, holus bolus, so far as it is possible, the fiscal system that hitherto prevailed in this country. The only thing he has had time to think out and apply is this villainous and iniquitous measure to empower the collector to call in the Under Sheriff and empower the Under Sheriff to be the sole judge of the place, time and manner of the exercise of these extraordinary powers. We used to speak of the White Terror—the Russian Czar and Czardom. But now every little collection district will have its own Czar, who will be able to exercise those powers What the Minister for Local Government says is true. He will not permit the exercise of these powers. That is very much like what the dentist says to a child in a state of nervous trepidation when the instrument of extraction is drawn near to the aching tooth: "It won't hurt you. I don't mean to hurt you." Somehow the instinctive dread of the child does not disappear with this assurance. Surely if there was time to think out an adaptation of the worst features of the Under Sheriff's Omnipotence Bill and apply them here, there should have been time also to consider whether or not a financial or a fiscal adjustment could not be come to with Great Britain in regard to those arrears of income tax which have been disturbing this Chamber since October last, and the echo of which has at last begun to be heard outside these walls. I notice that, although the matter has been debated more than once here, it is only now that there is a letter to the Editor pointing out that the course being pursued by the Minister for Finance is unintelligible in view of his previous record. If the Minister will satisfy us—I have no right to speak for anybody but myself, and so I will be meticulously correct and say if the Minister will satisfy me— I will withdraw my opposition, although I know my opposition is not formidable to him, if he will satisfy me that the money which is to be paid in the way of arrears of income tax due to the British Treasury will go into the coffers of the Irish Free State without any risk or danger of being treated later in a set-off account as "moneys had and received." We have received no such assurance as that. We are simply told, what in the main I thoroughly agree with, that if other citizens have paid, why should the men who refused to pay be better off than the obedient citizen who, the moment the assessment was made upon him, wrote out his cheque? There is a great deal, I must admit in common honesty, in the Minister for Finance's argument on that point. There would be more in it if some of us had not inconvenient memories that go back to the time when the late Irish Parliamentary Party was denounced for adopting the tactics for the sake of Home Rule of supporting Lloyd George's Budgets that imposed this heavier income tax on Ireland: They were "traitors." There is no need to repeat now all or any of the abuse that was heaped upon them. But those are the very impositions which we, in the name of newly-acquired liberty, proceed to exact from the Free State citizen without giving him, what I think he is reasonably entitled to demand, an assurance that the money that he pays will go to the support of the Free State exclusively. "Render unto Cæsar the things that are Cæsar's" is a doctrine which I do not think any of the Executive Ministry is likely to challenge, certainly not here. The Minister for Finance is to-day the Cæsar. We are all quite prepared to render unto Cæsar the things that are Cæsar's but we want to be assured that they are things that are Cæsar's before we recognise the duty of rendering them.

It was pleasant to hear, since the Finance Resolutions first came before the Dáil, all the expressions of opinion in favour of direct taxation. I am sorry that the Minister, instead of borrowing from the Sub-Sheriff's Omnipotence Act those measures which will, no doubt, arouse horror; instead of proceeding to make laws to compel the employer to be a tax collector, free of any percentage or commission, did not increase the income tax and take off a number of those other taxes. He would not only have got a large amount of money from a willing people, but he would at the same time have administered to them a lesson as regards the real nature of liberty. Many people are already beginning to complain of the Free State Executive that it is putting a heavier burden of taxation on us than we previously had to endure. That is not inconsistent with liberty. I waive the fact altogether that the moneys that have to be raised have to be raised for things for which it is not the fault of the Free State that the demand has to be made. I will not go into that. There is no good in speaking about it at the moment. But we are freely imposing these taxes on ourselves—at least, in so far as we freely do so we are acting as free men. I might quote to you the somewhat famous remark of Edmund Burke. When Hampden refused the taxes, the ship-money, what he really refused was to pay the sum of about £2. "Had he paid it," says Burke, "as a rich man he would have been very little poorer, but he would have been a slave." In refusing to pay it he was acting as a freeman. That principle applies in the opposite order. If we impose these taxes for our own purposes, in view of the exigencies of the moment, and do it freely, there is no slavery in that. Although we may all grudge the money, it ought to be done.

What hurts me is that on this first occasion on which Irishmen have had the great privilege of passing their own Finance Bill, that these things have been introduced into it which are elements of friction, and which make it necessary for some deputies to call, as I am sure they will, for a division. If the Minister thinks it necessary—and certainly the Minister for Local Government made the case that it will be necessary to take very drastic measures against the disloyal subject who will not come to the aid of the State and pay his income tax now—to have those powers, why not take them in a separate Bill? Why introduce them into this? That is very small criticism, no doubt, but we made a similar criticism on another occasion as a corrective of hasty legislation, and the Executive had the good sense and the good grace, I may add, to follow the advice and passed what they proposed by way of separate legislation. It will not help to make the finance system of the Free State popular that its introduction is accompanied here by a thing for which there is no precedent in any civilised country. There is no precedent in any civilised country for empowering a minor official to set in operation, of his own accord, without reference to any higher authority and without any adjudication on the matter, such terrible machinery, and to seize property, to determine at his choice, according to his ignorance, the time and the place and the moment for its sale. It is a monstrous proposal; it is an invasion of liberty. What I marvel at is that Deputy Johnson should be so confident as he expressed himself, when addressing comparatively empty benches, that when the division bell rang he would find a majority persuaded by the arguments that it had not heard to cast its vote in favour of his proposition.

Here is a proposal to continue certain tariffs and very little is said in support of them. I have done my little best to defend the general principle of them here. The Ministers, surely, ought to have something to say by way of promise that the more offensive part of them—and I mean by that the least defensive part of them—will be altered. Undoubtedly I have to admit that this is an emergency measure, but even in an emergency measure there might be shown a regard for principle and the desire to introduce its application. There are many things connected with the breakfast table for which I pleaded exemption of taxation. There are other things which are in the nature of raw materials for Irish manufacturers. There are industries in this city struggling against the heavy competition of neighbouring countries, and the raw materials for these industries have to be shipped to Dublin, and they undergo the imposition of these tariffs. I think it would be a wise thing if, in regard to some of these, the tariff were reduced. A long time ago I proposed, and I understood the Minister for Industry and Commerce favoured the proposition, that instead of imposing the whole tax upon foreign motor cars, we should differentiate between the mere chassis and the ready-to-drive-away motor car. If we were, instead of putting 33? per cent. on French, Italian, American, and Canadian cars, to put, say, 15 per cent. —I am not in favour of any particular figure, but I do not want to plead for putting on imposition—if we were to put a reduced tax, then it would favour the exportation from these countries of cars which would be the more readily bought, and we should recreate what was once a very important and flourishing industry here—the coachbuilding industry. Every one here will remember that from the moment the motor car became a necessity of the doctor, and was one of the ordinary outlets for the indulgence of extravagance in other sections of the community, horse carriages were no longer built, and all our expert coachbuilders and the men engaged in the cognate allied industries went over to Coventry, Wolverhampton, and other centres of production, and we have practically lost these skilled artisans. There are some survivors of them, sufficient to recreate the industry again if we give it a chance for revival.

Now, I do think that even in an emergency measure of this sort, with everything done confessedly under very, very inimical conditions of hurry and over-pressure of work, there still might be room for modifications of the type I indicate, a relaxation of tariffs upon certain raw materials that have to be employed in industries of our own, and upon other things that would tend to recreate industries. I am in favour of the tariff policy, because tariffs are not, as some people think, solely and exclusively by way of protection of existing industries, but they are there to preserve the balance of exchange, of imports and exports, and also for the purposes of bargaining. This is the very moment in our history when we take our first step forward as a self-governing community that we should be in a position to deal and deal effectively, with other countries so as to invite in a very effective form direct trading between these countries and our own. There are many points which present themselves for attack in minor details, but they can be dealt with more properly in Committee. I, therefore, keep away of set purpose from the consideration of these aspects of the measure. I am going to vote for this measure as an emergency measure in the hope that I also, like Deputy Johnson and the Minister for Local Government, may see such a peace that surpasseth understanding in the Free State, when the spectacle will be exhibited in every cinema in the world of long queues waiting outside income tax offices battling for first place to pay these impositions.

After the very able speech of Deputy Professor Magennis very little remains for me to say. I cannot, however, see my way to agree again to what we passed here some three or four months ago through the cajolery and pleading of the Executive. I cannot see my way to agree to what is really the Enforcement of Law (Occasional Powers) Act drafted into the Finance Act. At that time we considered that such drastic action was necessary, and we were told it was only for six months, and never dreamt that when the six months were nearly expired, it would be re-enacted by way of a Finance Bill which will last for twelve months or more. In this connection it is well to remember that at the time we were promised writs would be withheld, that there would be no Sessions held, no decrees issued, that all would be plain sailing, and that the Land Bill would be on top of us, and we then agreed to these conditions. What is the real case now? There are sheaves of writs like the leaves of Vallambrosa falling about the country. "George V. by the grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland." I thought we had a Free State! This is what is going on all round the country. "And of the British Dominions beyond the seas, King, Defender of the Faith." Pay up! Do you think we are going to give a tax collector down the country power we never gave before? The case was made by the Minister for Local Government that the rate collectors had these powers already, but he forgets that the rate collector is collecting rates which have been agreed to by representatives of the people, who fixed a certain amount to be collected, while in this case the tax collector comes along and assesses at whatever he thinks right, and he leaves it to you to make a case against it. If you fail he issues a certificate to the Under-Sheriff, and then "the King, Defender of the Faith," and so on, comes along. We will not agree to that. It is a pity such a clause should be inserted in the Finance Bill. I am perfectly well aware that we must have the finances collected, and we agreed to pay taxes without duress, but you do not want these things put before us because we have got these clauses. We wish to pass this Finance Bill, but we certainly cannot pass these provisions.

I will not go into the fiscal question, but Deputy Gavan Duffy referred to something which is very dear to our hearts, and that is the question of doing something to foster agriculture. That can be done in two ways, either by Protection, or by a system of bounties. Either one way or the other will have to be agreed upon by this Committee of fiscal experts. I would ask the Government to be particular in seeing that on the Committee that is to be set up due representation will be given to the interests affected because we on the land and the men working with us are the under dogs. We are the taxpayers carrying the burden. We have to bear the burden, and unless we are assisted and supported we cannot carry on.

When the Resolutions were before the Dáil some time ago I opposed the provision that employers should collect taxes. After the able statement of the Minister for Finance to-day I do not feel that I can do so in future. He said that the enactment was drafted simply to make those who are well able to pay, pay. My concern was really for the skilled workman and men of that type who in years gone by were liable for Income Tax. These men spent every halfpenny they got and the order went forth, no matter from what quarter, advising everyone not to pay Income Tax. The workmen obeyed that undoubtedly and spent the taxes. At the present moment the conditions are such that I do not think the workmen will be able to pay any arrears of taxes, and I think any further provision in this Bill should be in the way of relieving them of that inability.

There is one thing I would wish to see introduced in the Finance Bill and that is a reduction of the taxes on whiskey. Poteen making is quite an industry throughout the country now. It will continue to be an industry as long as the whiskey taxes are as high as they now are. If you want to put an end to poteen making you must reduce the tax on whiskey. The revenue will not be reduced in the least because a greater quantity of good, wholesome whiskey will be made, distributed and bought all over the country, and that is really the only way you will put an end to poteen making, which is at present demoralising the whole country.

At this Stage the Ceann Comhairle resumed the Chair.

I can assure Deputy Magennis that every single penny of arrears of Income Tax that comes into the Exchequer of the Saorstát will not have to be accounted for by the Saorstát to anybody else, or to the British Government in the case of the ultimate financial adjustment. It will be used solely for the purposes of the State. There is no doubt whatever about that. That matter is settled. Now, the case made against the special provisions that we are looking for in this particular Bill is that they will be used against every person who owes Income Tax, whether that person be a person who has discharged his obligations to the State or not. That is not the case. The vast majority of the taxpayers pay and pay willingly, and pay in good proportion, but there is a section, a small section, who not alone seek to evade payment of the tax but place an undue burden on the State by reason of the costs entailed in continual and repeated applications for payment, so that eventually when the tax is got out of them it is scarcely worth the trouble and the expense incurred in the collection of it. Now, in those cases special regulations have had to be made, and we are asking for them here. They are necessary. At this moment the collector has the power of distraining for the collection of the tax, but he has not the power of disposing of the particular articles that he distrains.

Hear, hear; that is the evil.

He has not that power. Very well. Is it then that this is to be a joke? You want to give him the power to take a piano or an article of furniture, and to leave him so that he cannot sell it. Is that the position of the State, that you are giving these men certain powers that you know very well they cannot utilise? You are giving them authority to take certain property, knowing full well that tar barrels will be lit in the particular townland or the particular street in which an auction takes place, and he will not be offered a penny for the article. And then Deputies come up here and ask for a £1,000,000 this year for certain services, and here is £2,500,000 that you want us to be laughed out of every street and every town in the country for, before we can collect it. We are asking for nothing more than the means to utilise our present powers, and when the present means are defective to strengthen them, and to give us the opportunity of giving to the State what is due—"Rendering to Cæsar what is his." That is not too much to ask, and that is all that we are asking for in this Bill. If you show us any particular man, any particular taxpayer, who has been unjustly treated, from whom there has been exacted by this means sums in excess of what he owed to the State, we will consider the case, and if, on investigation, it is found that that man was unjustly treated we are, I believe, able to see that it will not occur again, and that the man will be repaid. No such case has been put up. You take the ordinary individual, as if the State were composed of inoffensive citizens, every one of whom had to be protected from the State. That is not the case; it is the State that would suffer, and we intend to see that it will not suffer, and we intend to see that every penny due to it will be collected. That is our duty, and the duty of every Deputy. We are not asking for it as a compliment. We are asking for these provisions, and they would not be asked for if the circumstances of the times did not demand them, and nobody knows that better than Deputies here. We are accused of connivance in the non-payment of Income Tax during the last few years. The fact is that in certain cases the tax was withheld, the reason now stated being that it was political and patriotic. What became of it? Deputy Gavan Duffy said that it was put into the Dependants' Fund. Well, I hesitate to believe that. I will accept it if the Deputy says so. I hesitate to believe it. It is not the kind of thing that most men do. If they give to these funds they give out of the fullness of their hearts.

Will the Minister accept Dáil Bonds in payment?

Sure. I will take them now and cash them myself for you, although my bank account is overdrawn. Is the case now made that the taxes that were withheld are to be patriotic recompense for the political distinctions that the people rose to at that particular moment? Surely that is not the case. There are three or four or five different orders in the community paying Income Tax. There is the man with a private business, and in that I include the farming class. There is the man with a salary, and there is the public company; there are taxes charged upon house property, and so on. Now, as regards the man with the salary, he is stuck. The return in connection with whatever salary he gets can be discovered. In regard to the private business man that is not the case, because it is not the collector who assesses him, the learned Deputy's statement notwithstanding. He is assessed by the Inspector, and when he objects there are various channels and various courses to go through, and he can go through every one of them. He can appeal to the Commissioners, and if he is dissatisfied with their decision, I believe an appeal lies to the County Court Judge. Having appealed to all these, the amount is settled, and then he is at the mercy of the collector if he will not pay.

He will go down in futility.

I do not think he will; not if we can collect him before he goes down. He can go down after if he likes. Now, I am certain that the Deputy does know more about this Income Tax machine than he discloses to the Dáil, very much more. The collector has nothing whatever to do with the assessment of the tax. Where the return is sent out in the first instance by the Inspector to the person to be assessed, he fills it up or not at his own will. Some of them, of course, have a conscientious objection to filling in the amount of their income; I think the objection is more of another kind than a conscientious one, and, in the last resort, if he fails to fill in the return, the Inspector assists him in that respect and puts down an amount. Then the whole machinery can be gone through, the various methods of appeal, objections, and so on, and at last, when it is down and he will not pay, we are asking for certain powers to get it out of him. The question really is, is he to be made pay or is he to be allowed to escape? If Deputy Johnson has his way, he will be allowed to escape. Why should he be allowed to escape? An unfortunate man with several children, living in a small house, paying more than his quota to the upkeep of the State is to be mulcted and made to pay more than his quota in tobacco or tea because the other man is released. Everybody here knows that people who can very well afford to pay are not assessed at the amount they should be. They are the people who are escaping. Do not talk to me about it, because I have some experience of it.

I have seen people going around in motor cars, valuable machines. Look up their assessments and see if they are contributing their quota to the State I knew of cases in which thousands of people did not disclose their securities, and the amount they were getting in dividend warrants, and so on. They did not disclose it, and those are the people who are going to escape. We are told "hands off" these people, and also, "if you take a piano out of that house you must sell in that street, or you will not get it," and the State is to be robbed. There may have been cases within the last couple of years in which for one cause or another persons who have been assessed did not fill in the forms, and will not consequently get the allowance deducted. These cases can be dealt with. It is not a case of Czardom, and even though Deputy Professor Magennis says so, I hesitate to believe that where there is a really equitable claim put up for these allowances that they will be refused, and although this is a matter for the Commission, I am perfectly satisfied that in such cases they will not exact more than they are due. If people are entitled to these allowances and lapse of time or other causes has prevented them getting the benefit of them a very little correspondence would settle that matter. That is really the only cause of complaint that can be put forward here, and I do not think it will be put.

Could not the Minister provide for these cases in the Act?

It is not absolutely necessary, I think. As a matter of fact my own experience is that whenever it paid me to do a certain thing I nearly always did it. There were exceptions, and I think in the same case that Income Tax payers if they find out, even in the most remote part of the country, that they can escape a pound or two they will be very lively in regard to their interests.

May I ask a question of the Minister as to whether persons making claims for exemptions, abatements, and the like, are frequently called upon to do so in the presence of half a dozen old ladies who are all ears? I have had that experience.

I do not think one ought to be bashful in the presence of old ladies; if they were young ladies it might be otherwise. I will see the Commissioners with a view to excluding old ladies, unless they are paying their Income Tax, from the sacred presence of any young men coming in to claim their allowances.

I accept that assurance with satisfaction.

A case was made by Deputy Gavan Duffy about a person not named in the assessment. I told the Deputy he was on dangerous ground at the time, and I do not think he appreciated the warning I gave him. The point of the provision is that the Income Tax under Schedule "A," that is property tax, is by law charged not on the person, but on the property, and consequently that provision has had to be inserted. I suppose the Deputy will accept that. With regard to the old Local Government staff, the only members of that staff who have been assailed are the late Assistant-Minister and myself. I have not heard of any other. I do not think they have any real cause of complaint. Every single official of the old Dáil objects to Income Tax as if they were an especially privileged class. The salaries paid in the old days were certainly supposed to be free of Income Tax, or, in certain cases, they were supposed to be. I have not said they were. Certain cases occurred in which repayments were claimed. Of these applications which arose I do not think more than five were very serious. I think from what I know that it was scarcely a case for bringing up and for criticism. With regard to statistics, the Minister for Industry and Commerce has created a branch of Statistics for imports and exports. The statistics compiled in addition to dutiable goods, will give a full picture of the flow of trade of Irish exports and imports and manufactures. Proposals are also under consideration for the publication of the Statistics for the information of commerce and agriculture. I do not think that I can say more than that. I have said more than once, and I think that Deputies will believe it, that the work of the Ministry has been fairly heavy. If there is one thing worse than another it is to do a job badly. In taking on the consideration of a great big question like the fiscal question at a time when the country was disturbed one could not get a really sound view of the situation. If it has to wait twelve months, and that it is well done, I do not think any serious loss will result. The only other point that Deputy Johnson criticised was Section 18. Now, it was mentioned at one time that we had little faith, and that we ought to have more trust, and so on. Ordinarily in the collection either of rates or taxes some 70 per cent. comes in all right. There is no great expense in collecting it and no great trouble; it flows in. Ten per cent. after that is costly, but not very; ten per cent. after that is a little more costly; and anything over 90 per cent. almost costs the collection. I think that any person here who has had experience of rate collection in counties or in cities or towns will bear out that. This is not a Bill which describes our lack of faith in payment. Income Tax has never been popular, and the mere setting up of a Parliament, and the mere imposition even of the first Budget will not popularise it. People think of Income Tax as some spectre and some shocking burden that they ought to escape if they possibly can. We will not teach the people, I am sure, in the limited time at our disposal, either in this or the next Parliament, to see the justice of taxes, either Income Tax or any other tax. They are not popular things, and they never were. If, as Deputy O'Brien stated on one occasion, the money is well spent, and there is good value for it, then the taxes, I suppose are more popular, but we will wait a long time until we get human nature cordially to embrace taxation, and in saying then that we have not faith when we have to look at these things, one is really exaggerating the case. In the same way, while we have in this country a sufficient sum of money to enable us to borrow much more than we need for the present year we will not get it for various reasons. First of all, people do not like to change their investments rapidly, and secondly, although we get a huge majority in votes for a certain policy if it were to be asked to be backed in money, you will not get it done with the same rapidity. The people of this country must be convinced that the State is stable, that the State means to pay, and the State will not mulct those who invest in its securities. We contemplate borrowing, as far as possible, within the Saorstát. It may not be possible—we wish it were possible, and we would like to see every single citizen of the State partaking in that loan to the State, every single one of them. It ought to be their duty to do it, and I hope that the Deputies when addressing their constituents will stress that. If it is not possible for us to borrow the whole amount we will have to go outside. We cannot go outside and not give inviting terms. The terms offered here are the terms offered in Great Britain during the war.

We are not in a sufficiently strong position to attract foreign capital here, if we should require it, at a lesser price than the British Government was able to secure it. For that purpose that particular clause has been put in so that if we can raise money here, and if we have not to go outside, it becomes inoperative; but should it be required, it is inserted if the necessity arises. I do not know whether any other matters arose which I have not dealt with, but if there were I suppose I can deal with them on the Committee stage. I think there has been a good case made for the provisions we have asked for. The provisions are not asked for as against the whole of the taxpayers, but, apart from raking into the State all the money due, it is due to those who pay willingly and bear their burden properly that other people also should bear their burden. It is to see that people will not escape from their just liabilities that these provisions have been put in. The power is put in and if fought now by those who are interested, the State would not get what is due to it, and surely it ought not to be in the interests of any Deputy to urge that the State should not get that money. There is no greater power than that possessed by the collector of Income Tax with regard to distraining. What is the use of it if it is not exercisable? We are seeking to make it exercisable, and we are seeking that the servants of the State will not be made laughing stocks.

May I ask the Minister to elucidate a point which refers to Section 7? The Minister explained that that referred to assessments under Schedule A. If the Minister is advised by his legal advisers that the words used would enable this particular measure to be taken against employers, will he have them amended? My submission is that the terms of Section 6 call upon employers to collect taxes from their employees in some cases and that they are such that the wording of Section 7 applies to the employer, and that you can seize the employer's goods under this section. I ask the Minister to amend that, if that interpretation is borne out by his advisers.

Sections 6 and 7 occupy pages 3, 4, 5 and portion of page 6, and I do not think that it is reasonable to ask me to deal with that point just now. We will be taking the Bill section by section, and I will look into the point later on, but at present I do not quite understand it.

On a point of order, that is a question for discussion in Committee. It was one of the very points I had in view but which I said I would reserve. We are all aware that the interpretation in court cannot be affected by any interpretation of what was the intention of the legislature but rather by what was the wording of the section.

Can the Minister say anything about the Commission of Inquiry?

I expect to be able to make an announcement within the next week or ten days. I have nothing definite to state at present.

May we take it from the Minister as beyond all question in any other assembly hereafter that this is a binding undertaking, that the moneys which are received under the heading "Arrears of Income Tax due to the British Treasury" and now payable to the Irish Treasury will be the sole, exclusive property of the Irish Treasury?

That cannot be challenged in Westminster?

Question "That the Finance Bill, 1923, be now read a second time," put
The Dáil divided, Tá, 33; Níl 16:—

  • Liam T. Mac Cosgair.
  • Uáitéar Mac Cumhaill.
  • Mícheál Ó h-Aonghusa.
  • Séamus Breathnach.
  • Pádraig Mag Ualghairg.
  • Peadar Mac a' Bháird.
  • Darghal Figes.
  • Mícheál de Duram.
  • Mícheál de Stáineas.
  • Domhnall Mac Cárthaigh.
  • Earnán Altún.
  • Sir Séamus Craig, Ridire, M.D.
  • Gearóid Mac Giobúin, K.C.
  • Liam Thrift.
  • Eoin Mac Neill.
  • Liam Mag Aonghusa.
  • Pádraigh Ó h-Ógáin.
  • Padraic Ó Máille.
  • Seosamh Ó Faoileacháin.
  • Seoirse Mac Niocaill.
  • Fionán O Loingsigh.
  • Criostóir Ó Broin.
  • Caoimhghin Ó hUigín.
  • Próinsias Bulfin.
  • Séamus Ó Dóláín.
  • Aindriú Ó Láimhín.
  • Próinsias Mag Aonghusa.
  • Peadar O h-Aodha.
  • Séamus Ó Murchadha.
  • Seosamh Mac Giolla Bhrighde.
  • Liam Mac Sioghaird.
  • Tomás Ó Domhnaill.
  • Earnán de, Blaghd.

Níl

  • Seán Ó Duinnín.
  • Tomás de Nógla.
  • Riobárd Ó Deaghaidh.
  • Tomás Mac Eoin.
  • Seoirse Ghabháin Uí Dhubhthaigh.
  • Seán Ó Ruanaidh.
  • Liam Ó Bríain.
  • Tomás Ó Conaill.
  • Risteárd Mac Liam.
  • Seán Ó Laidhin.
  • Cathal Ó Seanáin.
  • Seán Buitléir.
  • Domhnall Ó Muirgheasa.
  • Risteárd Mac Fheorais.
  • Mícheál Ó Dubhghaill.
  • Domhnall Ó Ceallacháin.
Motion declared carried.
Committee Stage ordered for Thursday, 10th May.
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