Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 18 May 1923

Vol. 3 No. 16

REVENUE DEPARTMENT.

The PRESIDENT

I beg to move: "That a sum not exceeding £422,250 be granted to complete the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1924, for the salaries and expenses of the Revenue Department." A sum of £212,000 had been voted on account. The services previously performed by the Customs and Excise Department and Inland Revenue Department have been amalgamated, as Deputies are aware, under the title of Revenue Department, and the payments in connection with the running of the combined services are included in this Vote. "(A). Salaries, Wages and Allowances," covers the salaries of all the established and unestablished officials of the Customs and Excise and Inland Revenue, and also payment for any necessary overtime. The officials of the Customs and Excise and Inland Revenue Departments were formerly recruited by open competition. Pending the setting up of the Civil Service Commission several vacancies have been temporarily filled by the appointment of temporary clerks, selected by a Departmental Committee. The printing of the new postage stamps has been undertaken by the newly-established Stamping Branch. Further appointments will need to be made in connection with the Revenue Department, and it is intended to open for competition amongst members of the Army, I think some fifty posts out of possibly seventy or seventy-five to reserve them for competition amongst men who have served for the last twelve or eighteen months or two years, as the case may be.

The situation and the districts of officers and surveyors of Customs and Excise cover very wide areas, and much travel is necessitated in the performance of their work, especially in connection with enquiries in relation to old age pensions. That is under head (B). Examinations will be held in respect of the appointments I have mentioned for Customs officers. The whole arrangements in connection with the matter have not yet been completed, but it is hoped that within the next month or two that will be done and there will be competitive examinations which will afford some opportunity of appreciating the work done by these men in the Army and will at the same time get a good class of official for the public service.

Mr. JOHNSON

It might be necessary, or at any rate desirable, I think, to indicate in this Estimate what proportion of the expenses ought to have been charged to the next vote, No. 7. It is pretty well known that a Customs officer, or an Excise officer, has a good deal of work to do, enquiring into cases for other departments, such as the old age pensions, separation allowances, and work of that kind. It would be an advantage if some indication were given, in these estimates, of what proportion of the charges ought to be accounted for by these particular departments. Apparently no allowance is made in the estimate for these services. They are all charged against Revenue, and no mention is made in the other estimates of such work done by the Revenue Department, so that in the end we have this estimate for £634,000 as being the cost not merely of Revenue collection but of Revenue collection plus a good many other miscellaneous services which I think ought to be shown separately, or, at any rate, some estimate should be given as to what these miscellaneous services cost to this Department. There is item C.—Removal of furniture, £5,000. Is that intended to cover removal from one part of Ireland to another? Is the removal of officers from Dublin or Cork to Belfast or Derry charged against Saorstát income or revenue? or is it for bringing in the furniture of officials from other parts of Ireland or from parts of England? The item seems high, and perhaps a little explanation to amplify the bare item of cost of removal might be vouchsafed to us. Then there is item J.—"Copies of the Poor Rates for Income Tax purposes, £500." That is a small matter, perhaps, but it actually represents payments hitherto made to the staffs of the local authorities, but in recent years made by way of overtime to the staffs of the General Valuation Office for copies of the valuation lists. Now, while the staff are, no doubt, glad of this overtime money, it seems to me the work ought to be done as part of the ordinary business work of the Valuation Office. In any case it seems absurd so to show exactly the cost to the Revenue Department of work done by the Valuation Office and to show nothing at all of work done by the Revenue Department for other departments.

Item K is an item for £2,000 for the construction, purchase and maintenance of vessels and boats and other conveyances. On this Vote one would like to know whether any arrangement has been made for a share, at least, of the British patrol boats or Revenue cutters, or whatever name may be given to them, and whether any of these have been handed over in place of cash. Perhaps in the course of the Minister's reply he will tell us whether that has been taken into account, or whether this £2,000 touches the cost of expenditure upon the NorthEastern Frontier. I suppose certain boats may be required in Lough Erne. Perhaps the Minister would just enlighten us as to the meaning of that item.

CATHAL O'SHANNON

I should like the Minister, when he replies, to say something about the lower grade men in this service, particularly those who have been taken on more recently, and to say what are the rights and conditions of service of these men? How many of them are employed; from what class are they recruited, and what are the present methods of recruitment pending the complete organisation of the service; and whether, also, these vacancies have been widely advertised so that people desiring to join this particular service of these particular lower grades might have an opportunity of presenting themselves for whatever kind of examination there was, if there was any examination or test, before they are taken into the service? I should like to ask, too, whether there has been any considerable number of transfers from Great Britain, and particularly of officers in the Six-County area. I understand that a number of them have been desirous of getting transferred to the Saorstát, but that they found some difficulty.

The PRESIDENT

I think the first point made by Deputy Johnson was that certain items in this Estimate should properly be charged to the next Estimate. In the prefatory note to No. 4 there is some explanation given in connection with the Estimates generally. I do not think that it would be possible in the case of Old Age Pensions to assess the proportion which would be properly chargeable to that service; that is, the service of Customs officers. Customs officers are sometimes employed perhaps in the morning on customs work, and in the evening on Old Age Pensions work. Perhaps one day they are at one thing and the other day they are at the other, and I think there would be some difficulty. I am speaking from my own experience of one particular officer. I find him in the morning in connection with old age pensions work, and in the evening in connection with Excise matters. It is rather difficult to say off-hand what the amount would be for each portion of his service. I do know in connection with some of the work done that there are very heavy expenses incurred where an officer has to make a journey, for instance, of a few miles into the country to see an applicant for old age pension and to get particulars and so on. It may sometimes necessitate staying in the hotel of the town near where the person lives for a night. I do not know that there has been any segregation at any time of the proportion of cost of Customs and Excise officers between one kind of work and another. I should also say this: As regards the Revenue Department, Deputies will remember this is the first time an estimate in respect of Customs and Excise expenditure has come up here. Last year we paid the British Government; this year we have set up our own machinery and taken over machinery ourselves. With regard to removals, if an official of the Revenue Department is transferred under the direction of the Commissioners from one locality to another, the expenses of his removal are borne by the State. This is an estimated sum. It may be very much less. I do not know that. In case where we were transferring officers the transfer, I think, would be only in the nature of a swap. If we give back an Englishman and we got over an Irishman, I do not think that in that case we would pay the expenses. The case mentioned was one from Cork to Belfast. I do not think in that case we would pay the expenses. But this is an estimate, and it is for the purpose mentioned. There was no question raised on item E. On item J, I take it that these are copies of poor rate valuations supplied from the local authorities. I do not know if it refers to overtime as mentioned by Deputy Johnson or not, but I will make enquiries and get him particulars. It is a small sum of £500.

Mr. JOHNSON

It is the principle I am thinking of and not the actual amount, which is small. I am thinking, rather, whether it would be possible to go any nearer than has already been done in putting this charge into the right account.

The PRESIDENT

I think that will take some years. You get a certain type of account for the segregation of services and so on, and the proper allocation of each particular service to the value of the work done by each particular officer will take some time. As regards K, which deals with construction, purchase and maintenance of vessels, boats and other conveyances for the protection and collection of revenue, a launch is used at Cobh, and in other ports there are row boats. The general cost of the running of this launch, and of the row boats, falls under this heading.

Mr. JOHNSON

Can the Minister say whether he was able to take over from the British any number of these boats?

The PRESIDENT

I cannot say off-hand. I should say that we probably took over the one at Cobh. With regard to the question raised by Deputy O'Shannon, I will have to make inquiries, and will acquaint him with the particular information he requires.

Question put and agreed.