Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 30 May 1923

Vol. 3 No. 19

COMMITTEE ON FINANCE—ESTIMATES FOR PUBLIC SERVICES. - STATIONERY OFFICE.

The PRESIDENT

I move: "That a sum not exceeding £140,000 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924, for providing stationery, printing, paper, binding, and printed books for the public service; to pay the salaries and expenses of the Stationery Office, and for sundry miscellaneous services, including reports of Oireachtas debates." (£65,000 voted on account.)

The great bulk of the estimated Vote was for paper, £53,500; miscellaneous, £22,000, and printing and binding, £15,000. Subject to the fact that there is preference given for Irish manufactured goods, all stores up to sample are purchased in the cheapest market. The past year has been to a large extent one of equipment. A number of new Departments have been set up, and there were also a number of special Commissions of Inquiry and Research, all requiring stationery and printing at the shortest possible notice. In addition, large requirements for the National Army and Civic Guard had to be met. The Stationery Office was not always in a position to exercise an effective control on demands. Many Departments have made more than normal demands upon the Stationery Office, and it has not been always an easy matter to meet their requirements. To give an idea of some of the difficulties of this Office, there is a new contract now for envelopes, and it is observed that as many as 64 different sizes of envelopes have crept into the ordinary usage of Public Departments. The Stationery Office intends to invite the co-operation of all the other Departments to revise their requirements, not only in size, but also in quality. Substantial reductions have been made in the Estimates. £29,000 less has been voted than for the last year, 1922-23.

Mr. O'CONNELL

I desire, on this Vote, to call attention to the policy of the Stationery Office of the Government in the matter of the prices which they charge for their publications. Already, on a former occasion, I called attention to it by way of question. Books, publications and reports in which the public are interested, and which were hitherto sold at the nominal price of 1s., are now costing 5s., 6s. or 7s. In our hands you have an example of a publication which cost 10s. I am sure a large number of the public would be anxious to find out the details of many of those Votes, but there are very few indeed prepared to pay 10s. for this publication. I would suggest, with regard to this particular publication, that it is advisable that it should be published in sections under separate Ministries or Votes, as it was under the British regime. One person might be very interested, for example, in the Post Office Vote. He would not trouble very much about Agriculture or the Stationery Office or Education, and, in the same way, a man interested in the Vote for Agriculture and the details of that particular service, might not trouble much about the Post Office. Therefore, I would suggest that these Estimates might be available separately. I think that could still be done. There is no reason why those should not be issued separately even still, and published at a nominal price, so that people having an interest in special departments can secure copies. I do not know on what grounds the prices charged for some of those publications are fixed, but it would seem to me, in any case, that the Government, in adopting the policy of charging prohibitive prices for those publications, are not adopting a wise policy. People are interested—anxious to be interested, in any case—in the work of the various departments, as set forth in the various reports, but the policy of charging exorbitant prices for them will kill that interest. I would suggest, therefore, that those publications should be issued at reasonable prices.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

I desire to join with Deputy O'Connell on the question of raising the prices of official publications of the State. It is a matter which affects the public at large. Even though a loss be incurred, I suggest that that loss would be abundantly worth while if the official publications were issued at a cheap price, in order that they might be made available to a large number of people. Take the question of one of the most interesting publications that has been issued by this State or by any State, and which was issued during the last few months, dealing with the statistics of imports and exports, revealing the entire machinery of this State, and exposing a position showing clearly that our credit is as good as the credit of any other country. That is a matter that should be inquired into by every citizen. How can anyone expect any citizen to purchase a paper bound copy of this kind at the price of 10s.? I forget what the price was before the Free State came in, but it does not look well for the Free State to charge more than was charged previously. The people ought to be able to purchase statistics of the State at the cheapest possible money, in order that they might be thus encouraged, by purchasing them, to examine into the workings of this State.

I also raise the question which I raised yesterday: that is, that publications of this kind ought to be made available for such deputies as desire to have them. At the present moment it appears to be the rule, contrary to the practice in other countries, that deputies have to purchase these books. I think that ought not to be the case, because these are publications issued under the official sanction of the legislature, and are very germane to an understanding of the matters raised here. There is a third matter—but perhaps the Minister might not so forcibly appreciate the value of the argument. If you raise the cost of those publications to quite such a figure as they stand at at the present moment there are inconveniences imposed. For example, about a quarter of an hour ago I laid my copy of the Estimates, charged at 10s., on the benches here. Perhaps it was owing to the high price, but I came back a quarter of an hour afterwards and found it was missing.

Mr. WILSON

Can the Minister say what preference he is giving towards the purchase of stationery in Ireland? How much is this particular service costing the Central Fund? With regard to what Deputy Figgis and other Deputies have said, I wish to point out that, although the prices have been raised, a profit of £10,000 for the sale of those publications is estimated this year. I think that is not bad business at all. The sum of £15,000 for Dáil Debates seems to be tremendous, and we ought to try and limit our speeches. I would like to know what is the exact amount of preference given to the Irish paper companies by these Departments, and what it is costing.

The PRESIDENT

British Parliamentary publications were originally priced according to a low scale fixed by the House of Commons, and having no relation to the cost of production. This was altered during recent years owing to the greatly increased cost of production, and this altered scale is carried out in Dublin in respect of Bills and Acts only. Debates were fixed at a special rate of 1s. per copy, afterwards reduced to 6d., at which price they still stand. The market has not gone up, although the price has gone down. That explodes the theory of Deputy Figgis. He will appreciate that when he is Minister for Finance by-and-bye. All these theories he is putting forward now he will find out later are not as water-tight as they appear. Stationery Office publications are priced according to the cost of production, plus a commission to agents. The price of this class of publication is materially affected by the number of copies printed, and that includes in all cases those required for the Public Service. Therefore, as a general rule, the receipts from copies sold never bring in the cost of production. In the case of larger editions and reprints the receipts do more than cover the cost of production. Recurring publications such as examination papers are priced at the same figure each year. There was an article published in a morning newspaper recently dealing with the cost of these publications, in which we were criticised to the same purpose. My information is that this newspaper has increased its cost to the public by 300 per cent. Special issues, such as Departmental Reports, have, under the Statute, to be printed and presented, and occasionally the price fixed is much below the cost of production. As regards the Estimates Book referred to by Deputy Figgis, and which he has apparently lost, I hope to give him, a presentation copy to make up for it. The price of that book worked out at 21s. per copy, and it was approved for issue at 10s. The Irish Land Commission Report for 1920-1921 worked out at 42s., and the selling price was made 10s. The British Estimates, which were originally printed in separate classes, and ultimately issued in volume-form, were priced at 18s., although it was only a reprint, and 1,500 copies were printed, as against Dublin's 500. With regard to Deputy Wilson's question I should say that a preference of 10 per cent. to 12½ per cent. is given for Irish manufactured material. Four-fifths of the paper supplied up to January, 1923, was obtained from Irish firms.

Mr. JOHNSON

Was it Irish manufacture?

The PRESIDENT

Four-fifths was obtained from Irish firms, the Irish Paper Mills being taken, for this purpose, as an Irish firm.

Mr. JOHNSON

When you speak of Irish firms, does that mean that the paper was of Irish manufacture?

The PRESIDENT

They mean McDonnell's, the Irish Paper Mills, and the North of Ireland Paper Mills. I take it that they are all Irish manufacturers. The paper market was then in its lowest, and accordingly contracts for supplies to cover six months' consumption of certain items were made throughout Great Britain and Ireland. £8,000 worth of paper was ordered, and of this Irish supplies were £4,079—McDonnell's, £1,499; Irish Paper Mills, £988; North of Ireland Paper Mills, £1,592. There was no preference to Irish paper. It has been bought as the cheapest in the open market where certain qualities were required.

Mr. WM. O'BRIEN

There is a point the Minister might consider: Whom are these documents printed primarily for? Are they printed for the use of the public primarily, or are they printed primarily for the use of the various Departments of the Government and the members of the Dáil? Putting a price of 10s. on this document may mean anything. There may be no sale for it at all. It is not a document you would expect the average citizen to study carefully. In fact, instead of requiring him to pay 10s. for it, it might be well-spent money if you were to pay him 10s. on condition that he studied it carefully. The State would probably benefit. I think the Minister for Finance should look at the matter from that standpoint. If there was not the sale of a single copy, it would be necessary to print these documents for the use of members and of the various Government Departments, and any extra copies would only involve the cost of the paper and the machining. The price to the outside public should be fixed on that basis. That is a matter that should be considered, because the putting of exorbitant or prohibitive prices on this kind of document does not bring in revenue to meet the loss involved in the printing. We all sympathise with Deputy Figgis in the loss he has sustained. I would suggest that it might be of advantage to him if he would move a greater distance from the Ministerial bench.

Mr. JOHNSON

There is another aspect of this question of the price of publications. I think it ought to be the business of the Stationery Office to encourage the sale of official publications as widely as possible, and I suggest it could be done on the lines that Deputy O'Brien has hinted at, without loss, at any rate, to the Exchequer and with great advantage to the political education of the country. With that object in view, I would suggest whoever is to have charge in future of the official sale of these publications ought to be obliged to make the most of the agency. To put the corner of a shop and half the side of a window at the disposal of the Stationery Office for the sale of official publications is not satisfactory if one wants to encourage the sale of these publications. I would suggest, if there were a shop specially opened for the purpose of selling official documents not only of this Government, but official documents of all sorts of Governments of countries in all parts of the world, especially when they are printed in a language that can be understood by the common people, that it would add to the political education of the people and assist the student in comparing administrative and legislative methods here with similar work in other countries. The work of the Stationery Office need not be confined to the sale of the publications of the Saorstát. I suggest that there could be very satisfactory public work done by the encouragement of the sale of Blue Books, official publications, White Papers, Green Books, and any other coloured books of a public character from the various countries, especially those which print either translations into English or print the original documents in English. Occasionally I have been privileged to read translations into English of the official publications of quite a number of Governments, and they do throw some light upon the way a country can be administered, especially when one is dealing with economic and industrial aspects of government. I suggest that it is well worth while considering the desirability of really setting about this as a business with the intention of selling as large a number of publications as possible.

On the question of Irish paper, I am not quite sure that I understand the position of the Stationery Office. I took down the words of the Minister in his first statement, in which he said "that, subject to a preference for Irish-made goods, all the goods purchased were at the lowest price." We had a further explanation that from 10 to 12½ per cent. of preference was given to Irish-made paper. Is that the limit of preference? Is it a preference of that amount that is understood in the fixing of contracts and the making of purchases, and is there no greater preference given, or is there no preference given to Dublin-made paper as compared with Antrim or Ballyclaremade paper? I suggest that in view of the fiscal policy that the Government has adopted, if it can be called a policy, that there is reason for giving a greater preference to Dublin County made paper than the paper that is made in Ballyclare, and I would like to have an understanding that, to the fullest possible extent, Irish-made paper will be bought and used by the Stationery Office and by the printers who are printing for the Stationery Office, and that there should be a very stringent condition imposed upon the printers that the paper they are using is Irish-made paper. I hope that Ministers will consider in this question the necessity for keeping alive this industry, at any rate, provided that one can make sure, as I have no doubt at all it is possible to make sure, that the firm supplying the paper are not taking undue advantage of the preference promised. Where the firm is doing its work reasonably well and its reason for the extra price is only because of handicaps that they cannot overcome, the paper should be inevitably Irish-made paper. Here again we raise this very thorny question of the extent of preference, and the wisdom of buying in the cheapest market, and the further question of whether one is to allow the very cheap articles, produced under special circumstances, to influence the purchase price to the detriment of Irish manufacture. I would urge that this Department should be especially insistent upon the use of Irish-made paper and Irish printing, because we know, as a matter of fact, that there is good paper turned out in Ireland It is not now a question of experiment. There is good paper turned out, and one of the difficulties that have been met by the paper firms has been the opposition of artificially cheap productions. I submit that it is not good business for the State to allow the introduction of those artificially cheap products to come into unfair competition with Irish-made products, with the possible result of ruining the industry, and being unable within any reasonable period of time to revive it. I think the Minister would be well advised to tell us, or to reassure us more than he has done, what the policy of the Stationery Office is in regard to the amount of preference that it gives for Irish manufactured goods, and whether there is any preference given to good paper manufactured within the Saorstát as compared with Irish paper manufactured outside the Saorstát.

Mr. WILLIAM SEARS

With regard to the publications issued by the Department of Agriculture I should like to say that the Quarterly Journal contains articles of vital interest to the farmer, but out of every 100 farmers in Ireland I suppose not more than 10 know anything about it. Their journal is not advertised either in the Press or by poster, as far as I know, and the price is rather high. At all events, we are faced with the fact that people are not buying this Journal, though it is issued by the Department for the special advantage of the farmers. If there was a big firm in Dublin using a Journal in order to advertise its wares it would take care it was issuing it in a form that would reach the customers. It certainly would not indulge in high expenditure in getting out literature in a manner that would not reach the customers. I think the Stationery Office should devote some time to striking out another plan for bringing all this valuable information and these Journals under the notice of the people for whom they are intended. I would suggest that they would get out a weekly journal for the benefit of the farmers at a cheap price that would reach the farmers, containing valuable information and seasonable information for the benefit of the farmers. The Journal published quarterly very often contains valuable information about crops that have been reaped, and it is too early for crops that have not been sown. A weekly journal at a reasonable price might possibly reach tens of thousands of farmers. Deputy Johnson referred to the valuable literature in other countries. The Department of Agriculture in Washington will send any man in Ireland, on application, a copy of every leaflet, and they issue leaflets of the greatest possible interest. Of course, they do not apply to the conditions in Ireland except generally. The difficulties are not the same in all countries. It is the same way in Vienna; they publish, not only in the Austrian language, but in the English language, very interesting documents upon agriculture. I think the Stationery Office should try and reach people with some of the papers upon which they spend so much money.

The PRESIDENT

Each department is responsible for the requirements of its production, subject, of course, to the Stationery Office having some supervising control over the cost. With regard to the matter raised by Deputy Johnson, I understand there is some slight difference between paper manufactured in the Saorstát as compared with that manufactured in Ballyclare. Ballyclare paper is useful for certain purposes, and possibly not so suitable for others. I have undertaken to look into that matter and see what can be done, but I do not think that it would be in the interests of the cause to give an undertaking. If it were known that we were confined to a particular market we would probably not get any competition, and I suppose that the Deputy does not intend that competition should be restricted in any way. I think that Deputies can rely on the fact that we will give fair consideration to goods manufactured in the Saorstát as against goods manufactured outside. The average preference as far as I can find out is somewhere in the neighbourhood of from 10 to 12½ per cent., and I do not think that further preference is necessary.

Mr. JOHNSON

Does that average mean for a number of articles, or does it mean the size of the contract?

The PRESIDENT

In particular articles I am advised. If the Irish article is satisfactory, there is a 10 to 12½ per cent. preference as against the foreign production, and in such cases we have taken the view that the best policy is to buy the home manufactured articles. Now it should be borne in mind that quite a large number of contracts were for a considerable period, some of them, I think, running into five years—from 1920 to 1925. When there was an opportunity for re-considering them, notice was given of their re-consideration. After due notice had been given, we have taken that opportunity and readvertised. I think the Irish manufacturers have not got any cause of complaint with regard to the goods we have bought in the Stationery Office. I think they get fair consideration, but I do not think that it would be advisable to let it go forth as between one firm and another in the Saorstát and outside that undue preference was going to be given to the firm in the Saorstát. I think it would be unwise. It might, of course, be borne in mind and the preference given, but I do not think it would be well to indicate that such a policy was imposed upon the Stationery Office.

Question put and agreed to.