Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 30 May 1923

Vol. 3 No. 19

LAND LAW (COMMISSION) BILL, 1923—SECOND STAGE.

MINISTER for AGRICULTURE (Mr. P. Hogan)

I explained on the First Reading of this Bill that as a result of the operations of the Transfer of Functions Order, which transferred the administration of the Land Acts, the Office of the Commissioner of the Irish Land Commission ceased to exist, and that we were under the necessity of reconstituting the Land Commission. There are three bodies dealt with in this Bill—the Land Commission, the Estates Commissioners and the Congested Districts Board. The Land Commission was constituted by Section 41 of the Land Act of 1881. It consisted later of Judicial Commissioners and Lay Commissioners. The Estates Commissioners were Lay Commissioners of the Land Commission. They were the body known as the Estates Commissioners, and were constituted by Section 23 of the Land Act of 1903.

The Lay Land Commissioners administered the Land Law Acts; the Estates Commissioners, who were the same persons, administered the Land Purchase Acts. We have come to the conclusion that there is no further reason for this sort of Pooh Bah arrangement, and this Bill really abolishes the two titles. The personnel was always the same. There is one body now—the Lay Land Commissioners and they administer the Land Acts and the Land Purchase Acts. With regard to the Congested Districts Board, it was set up by Section 34 of the Land Purchase Act of 1891. Its powers were increased by the Congested Districts Acts of 1898, and they were still further modified and to some extent increased by the Irish Land Act of 1899. The powers of the Congested Districts Board relate not only to Land Purchase, but also to Fisheries and Industries.

We have now a Ministry of Fisheries and a Ministry of Industry and Commerce, and in the ordinary way the powers of the Congested Districts Board in relation to both Fisheries and Industries would be transferred to their proper Ministry, and the Congested Districts Board would be left with its Land Purchase functions only.

The new Land Commission—the reconstituted Land Commission—it is proposed to set up shall take over all Land Purchase and Land Law Act functions of the Board. There is no reason now for having two bodies dealing with Land Purchase or Land Laws. It was certainly useful in the past, when control by the British Government and Parliament existed, that a body which at least to some extent was representative should be dealing with the administration of services like Congestion and Land Purchase generally. There is no particular reason for it now. You have two Boards stripped of Fisheries and Industries functions, and there is no reason whatever why Land Purchase function should not be administered by the body administering Land Purchase generally.

I take it that there will not be very much dispute about that. The Bill provides that all the property, assets and finance of the Congested Districts Board as they stand at present shall be transferred to the Land Commission. I may say that we transfer not only the Land Commission functions and the Fisheries and Industries functions to the Land Commission, but the Ministries Bill, which is to be introduced, will re-transfer this work and will re-allot the function of the Land Commission as between the Department of Agriculture and every other Ministry. There was no other alternative. We could not very well transfer the Land Purchase functions of the Congested Board to the Land Commission and leave the Congested Districts Board administering Industries and Fisheries. There was no advantage in that. We might as well transfer the whole lot and let the Ministries Bill re-transfer any function that required to be so rearranged. The matter is urgent. We could not wait until after the Ministries Bill was through, pending sales being financed by the British Treasury of land purchase. We wished to put the position of the Land Commission definitely beyond doubt in order that somebody could give a receipt for moneys received from the Treasury. Hence it was necessary that this Bill should go through as soon as possible, so that pending sales should not be held up. The Congested Districts Board was not financed by Vote in the ordinary way. It was financed by Grants under various Acts of Parliament. They received £25,000 under Section 5 of the Congested Districts Board (Ireland) Act of 1899, £20,000 under the Irish Land Act of 1903, £144,750 under Section 49 of the Irish Land Act of 1899, £41,250 from the Church Temporalities, making a total of £231,000. These were Grants payable under the authority of these Acts of Parliament, and they were payable yearly, and if at the end of any year the Congested Districts Board had not spent the full amount of their income it did not go back to the Treasury, but was held by them, and in that way they gradually built up a fund, and that fund at the moment amounts to £153,000.

This Bill provides that these grants in aid shall be abolished, and that in future the reconstituted Land Commission shall be financed by moneys voted from the Oireachtas. Just as there is no particular reason why the C.D.B. should be maintained in the new circumstances, there is no particular reason why this system of voting moneys, specific sums yearly, under the authority of a special Act of Parliament, should be continued. It was distinctly useful, everyone will agree, in the past; it was useful that there should be specific sums payable under the authority of a specific Act of Parliament to Irish services, and that if the said Irish services were unable to spend the whole of that money during the year that it should be retained by that service. There is no further reason for that, because the Irish Parliament has control over all Irish services, and should be in a position to say each year what moneys are to be paid to each. Therefore, these grants in aid are to be abolished, and in future the moneys required for the service of the reconstituted Land Commission shall be voted by Parliament. With regard to the accumulated funds of £153,000, these are transferred to the Land Commission, but it is provided that they shall be used as grants in aid of the Vote. The fund will be gradually wound up in that way, and I should say that before this time next year we will be in a position to say what moneys for the Land Commission are to be voted by Parliament, and hence Parliament will be able at a glance to see how much money is going to each service. This sum of £153,000 is to be used as appropriation in aid of the Vote. With regard to the Staff, Section 5 deals with them. It reads:—"Immediately upon the passing of this Act the Congested Districts Board shall stand dissolved, and thereupon every officer and person then in the employment of the Congested Districts Board shall be transferred to the employment of the Irish Land Commission, and shall, for the purposes of the Superannuation Acts, 1834 to 1919, be deemed to have been paid from moneys provided by Parliament or the Oireachtas throughout their service under the Congested Districts Board within the meaning of Section 17 of the Superannuation Act, 1859."

The staffs shall be transferred to the Land Commission and graded by the Establishment Branch of the Ministry of Finance, and put in their place in the Land Commission in the ordinary way. These are the entire provisions of the Bill, and I beg to move the Second Reading.

MINISTER for LOCAL GOVERNMENT (Mr. E. Blythe)

I beg to second the motion.

Mr. T.J. O'CONNELL

I think there will be general agreement with the proposal made by the Minister to amalgamate these two or three different Departments which have been doing practically the same work. I think the amalgamation will make for efficiency and economy in the public service when it is carried out. Whatever reasons may have existed in the past, and perhaps there were reasons, they no longer exist, and I think it will make for a general tightening up and more economical working of the system when these Departments are amalgamated. With regard to the point made by the Minister as regards grants in aid, I think this question of giving grants in aid to Departments, Boards or bodies to do work which is really Departmental work, is one that, in my opinion, in any case, should not be over-encouraged. On the whole, I think it is better that such work should be performed directly by Government Departments, which would be subject to direct Government control. I am only giving that as my own personal opinion. With regard to the question of the staffs, Section 5, to which the Minister referred, does not make it quite clear that the staffs will be placed in the same position as if they had been, all along, in the Land Commission, or directly under the Government. This was, in effect, if not actually, a Government Department. The Congested Districts Board was doing Government work, and the staffs engaged by the C.D.B. were in practice, in any case, if not technically, Civil Servants. They were recruited in the same manner as Civil Servants were recruited; they passed the examinations held by the Civil Service Commission, but, owing to the fact that the C.D.B. was not directly under the control of the Government, they were not technically Civil Servants. I think that technicality should not be allowed to stand in the way of the members of this staff getting now the same treatment as if they had been Civil Servants right from the beginning. I understand that for some time past, owing to this technicality to which I am drawing attention, these staffs have been claiming the rights, which up to the present have been denied them, provided under the reconstitution which took place in the service under the Whitley Commission. At present that is still under consideration. These staffs appealed to the Government Departments some months ago to get the benefit of this reconstitution that was carried out in the other branches of the Civil Service. That has not been given to them up to the present, but I hope, now that they are coming over directly under Government control, that they will get the full benefit of this reconstitution. I do not wish to go into details on this matter, because I am quite sure that the Minister himself is fully aware of the facts. I wish only to say that the C.D.B., which hitherto was rather inclined to place some obstacles in the way, have now, I understand, recommended that the staff should get the just treatment to which they are entitled. I take it that under Section 5, for the purpose of superannuation, these staffs, when taken over, will be treated exactly as if they were Civil Servants right from the beginning of their service. I am sure it is only necessary to call the attention of the Minister and of the Dáil to this special matter in connection with the staffs to have definite provision made in the Bill for them. I hope that at the next stage the Minister will see his way to make suitable provision for them.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

I think that the general principle of this Bill is one that will get almost unanimous assent. Anything that would tend to gathering together into one body functions that are identical and which have hitherto been scattered amongst many bodies is to be encouraged. This is the first attempt we have seen to collect similar functions into one administration. That is the general principle of the Bill, and it is not a matter that should arouse any disagreement whatever. But it raises, as Deputy O'Connell has pointed out, the question of the staffs. The whole of the State depends upon the contentment and loyal functioning of its civil servants, and the collapse of two administrations means that the identity of the two staffs will henceforth be established. It means, further, that the staff of the Congested Districts Board will be placed on the basis of civil servants, and will naturally be graded on that basis. The actual words used by the Minister in that regard when introducing the Bill on the Second Stage were: "These servants, under Section 5, will be graded into the Land Commission in the ordinary way." It is the prerogative of a Minister, while not exactly being a monopoly of the Minister, to use words that are deft without exactly being precise. These words are deft, but not precise. I do not know exactly what they mean, and I would be glad to know how these persons are going to be graded "in the ordinary way," and what "the ordinary way" is presumed to be. We know that the Congested Districts Board up to about 1915 did give excellent service to the congested districts, and that that service was well intended and well intentioned, and that the good intentions were carried into practical effect. It might be charitable to draw a veil as to what happened after 1915. For that, perhaps, the officials themselves are not primarily responsible. In any case, these matters lie in the past. With regard to the future, we have a body of civil servants who have given excellent service to the most needy people of this country, and we are now informed that they will become civil servants in the Free State. It would be desirable if, at this stage, we had some fuller information, in order. when we come to the Committee Stage of this Bill, Deputies would have more exact information before them on which to base what they might judge to be necessary amendments. We might be told rather more precisely, even if a little less deftly, what was meant by the Minister when he said that these officials are going to be turned into a new and necessary body, and that they will be graded in the ordinary way. The case has been admitted on their own behalf by one of the members of the Board that that grading would be on the basis of the salaries of the Second Division civil servants. It is claimed by the officials of the Board that that pledge, given on their behalf before the Royal Commission of 1913, has not been kept. If such a pledge was given by a responsible member of the Board to the staff, that pledge should now be made good. In any case, it is right that persons who are going to be taken into the Civil Service and who passed the necessary Civil Service examination, should be graded exactly to the same grade as they would have had if they had gone into the Civil Service originally instead of into the service of the Congested Districts Board. That demand is made not in advantage to the officials, but in the advantage of the general efficiency of the Civil Service— contentment and a feeling of justice and equity being a very essential part of that efficiency.

Mr. J. McBRIDE

I congratulate the Minister for Agriculture on the introduction of this Bill for the amalgamation of these two Boards. There is no doubt that a dry rot did set in in the Congested Districts Board. It was becoming intolerable in the congested districts, and the Board have lands on their hands for generations undivided. We of the congested districts do not want any tightening up, as has been suggested by Deputy O'Connell. What we do want is an infusion of vigour, so that the land will be divided up and not left, from generation to generation, resurveyed time after time, with one surveyor following another, until nearly every stone on the estate is known to some of the surveying officials. As to the officials of the Board, a number of them are, I understand, ungraded. The service of these officials who are ungraded, and who are nominally civil servants, should, on the amalgamation of the Boards, be counted from the first year that they entered the service of the Board, and their pension and emoluments should be so calculated.

Mr. WM. SEARS

I should like to express my approval of this Bill also. I think that the joining together of these two Boards would give us a better instrument for the carrying out of the wishes of this Dáil with regard to the coming Land Bill. The division into two Boards before led to considerable confusion. I should like to join with Deputy McBride in hoping that we will have a new driving force of some considerable strength behind the working of this Board. People in the congested districts, looking on at the operations of the Board, got it into their heads that there was some hidden hand holding back the officials of the Board from carrying out the obvious intention of the Legislature with regard to the Congested Districts Board. The case of the Congested Districts Board is that the Board had not sufficient power, and points to the new Land Bill as proof of that. The Board states it had not power to carry out large schemes of migration which it wished to undertake, and it has thousands of acres of land on hands owing to the congests to whom they offered the land not being able to undertake to take the land because the inducements were not sufficient. That is the case of the Congested Districts Board—that it offered men land, and the men could not undertake the burden in the face of the depression in the farming world. I am sure that under the new Bill we will have these conditions improved. I think a very good case has been made with regard to the officials of the Congested Districts Board. If there was no proposal to unite the two Boards, I think you would have a splendid staff of officials in the Congested Districts Board to operate land schemes of a complicated character similar to the work done in the Land Commission, and I think it was hard to draw distinction in the matter of salary between the two staffs. Now that you are going to join the two Boards, I hope it will be impossible to draw that distinction. I trust that the Minister for Agriculture will consider the case of these men and put them on the same grade as the officials of the Land Commission. In fact, if it is not done it is obvious that it will lead to great dissatisfaction, as you will have men working side by side on a different footing.

Mr. P. McGOLDRICK

This is a Bill which, I think, will be non-contentious, and the outline of the new Land Bill has clearly shown that there will not be room for the different Departments to function in this matter. I am not so much concerned with the vested interests of the officials, because I am sure they are well capable of looking after themselves. I am sure it is not the intention of the Government to inflict any hardship upon them except what is consistent with the ordinary administration of such things. I merely want to understand this point. He states that £231,000 was given to the Congested Districts Board, and that there is £153,000 in hands now. That shows that only £78,000 was expended. That, covering a period of twenty years, shows only £4,000 a year. I did not understand that the ramifications of the Congested Districts Board were so moderate as that.

Mr. HOGAN

If I may be allowed to explain, perhaps it might shorten the debate. £231,000 was the annual income of the Board. £153,000 is the amount that they have saved since they first came into operation. They might have saved a couple of thousand a year, and now have £153,000 in addition to what they made by farming alone.

CATHAL O'SHANNON

When the Minister is replying I should like him to say whether these sections of the Soldiers and Sailors Acts which concern old land and the Estates Commission, will the obligations be undertaken by the new Land Commission?

Mr. R. WILSON

My reason for speaking on this matter is to ascertain from the Minister for Agriculture how much he is going to save out of the £231,000 which was the income of this Congested Districts Board. I am perfectly well aware that by the scheme of amalgamation which is under way the work will be well done. Having regard to the fact that the new Land Bill is going to cost the nation a million to bring it into operation, if it passes, I would like him to be able to tell us that by the abolition of the Congested Districts Board you will save this £231,000, and that therefore the million which the Land Bill is going to cost will be a saving in disguise. I can understand when you have to take over this staff and amalgamate them with the Land Commission that their salaries will be kept on, but there will be less supervision. The portion which deals with officials will be dealt with by another Department; that which dealt with untenanted land will be dealt with also under that. I think there should be, and must be, a considerable amount of this £231,000 available for the revenue of this State.

Mr. SEAN LYONS

I should like the Minister for Agriculture to take account not only of the Congested District areas, but also of those areas in which there are very large ranches, and that when those are divided up the workers in the small towns will not be overlooked. My district, it is true, is not put down as a Congested District. Of course, the people of Westmeath and Longford are supposed to have sufficient land, but there are other people that should be taken account of. Furthermore, I should like to associate myself with the Deputies who have congratulated the Minister on introducing into this Dáil the first Land Bill in a century to be given to the Irish people. I think the point of view the nation is taking at the present time is that the Minister for Agriculture should be looked upon as the idol of the people. In a very short time they will begin to realise that we have one man at least in Ireland who is able to satisfy the people.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

The Minister for Agriculture should listen to this speech.

Mr. LYONS

Furthermore, I am sure he will take into account those officials, including the Commissioners and Inspectors, who worked under the old Dáil when the majority of those men risked their lives going through the country trying to value land. I hope these men will be dealt with fairly, as they carried out their duties very satisfactorily. Personally, I have spoken to people from all parts of the country since this Dáil was established, and all are well pleased, and bear out my statement that those men are capable of carrying out their duties as Commissioners. I sincerely hope that when the time comes the Minister will retain the staff he has at the present time. I do not want to elevate him in any shape or form, because the more you praise him the more people begin to think he is not as good as he really is. As far as I can read in the Press and from the opinions of the people, I am certainly under the opinion that the Minister for Agriculture is one of the most popular men in Ireland. He will have no difficulty whatsoever in coming back here again, providing that in the Land Bill he introduced he has taken into account the landless people first, and, above all things, that he is going to include town tenants, in order that they will have a stake in the country as well as the people he intends to plant on the land. Furthermore, when we are on that subject I should like to say——

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

The Deputy has gone far enough with that particular subject.

Mr. LYONS

I hope the Minister will bear in mind the suggestion I made with regard to these Commissioners. I know a number of them myself who resigned during the time of the Terror and who worked for the Dáil and did excellent work. Those men are, at the present time, back working under the Ministry of Agriculture, and I hope the Minister will retain their services and make them Commissioners, as I am sure he will not be able to find any better officials.

Mr. HOGAN

I think Section 5 deals with the points raised by Deputy O'Connell and Deputy Figgis. The effect of the Section is to enable the staff of the Congested Districts Board to be transferred to the Land Commission, and to give them what are called the "added years," which they would, in the ordinary way, get on establishment, notwithstanding that they have been paid not out of Vote but out of Grants. The Superannuation Act provides that, on establishment, a certain number of years, during which the particular Civil Servant was not pensionable, would be added to the establishment years to enable the official to be pensioned at the ordinary rate. That only applies to Civil Servants paid out of Vote. These Civil Servants have been paid out of Grant and not out of Vote, and that section gives the same rights to these men—I should not call them Civil Servants—as those who have been paid not out of Grant but out of Vote. It gives them the right to have certain years added, on establishment, for the purposes of pension, just as if they had been paid out of Vote. I think that covers the point made by Deputy O'Connell.

Mr. O'CONNELL

That only refers to pensions.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

That deals effectively with the pensions, but the point I was making was with regard to their grading. It is complained by them that they might be taken over and placed in a lower grade than that to which they would have been entitled if they had passed into the Civil Service on passing their examination. The question primarily turns on the salaries they would now be receiving had they, on examination, gone into the Civil Service, rather than gone into the service of the Congested Districts Board. In other words, if they are now taken on and graded as Civil Servants, they should be taken into the same grade that they would have achieved if they had gone into the Civil Service at the outset instead of into the service of the Congested Districts Board.

Mr. HOGAN

What grade would they have achieved if they had gone into the Civil Service at the outset? The point which has been raised by Deputy Figgis shows the impossibility of dealing with this question in an Act of Parliament. What grade would they have achieved if, instead of entering for the examination of the Congested Districts Board, they had entered for the Civil Service examination? That is purely speculative.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

Might I suggest——

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Perhaps the Minister would be allowed to continue.

Mr. HOGAN

There is a good deal of misunderstanding about this matter, and I am taking the points as they arise. There is a good deal of rumour that we intend to take over the staff of the Congested Districts Board and treat them, shall I say, badly. I do not know that there is any foundation or that there could be any foundation for that sort of rumour or for that point of view. We cannot, in an Act of Parliament, specify that such an official shall be an executive division clerk, and that such a man shall be a higher executive officer. You cannot do that. You cannot say what grade they would have reached had they entered as civil servants instead of joining the staff of the Congested Districts Board. We must take them as they stand, examine their records, get their recommendations, and grade them into the Land Commission in a sympathetic way, placing them in the different grades of the Civil Service that their term of service, their efficiency, and the other considerations that one takes into account when officials are being established warrant. That is all we can do. We cannot be more specific in an Act of Parliament. I do not think it would be possible to amend that section so as to meet the point that Deputy Figgis raises. That will have to be left to somebody. It will have to be left to Establishment, and we must assume that Establishment will do the right thing by these officials. There is no particular reason to assume that they will not do the right thing. To attempt to grade these officials into the Civil Service by sections of an Act of Parliament dealing with each official—or, if you like, with each class of official—would be quite impossible. This section gives Establishment all the power they need. It gives them power to put an official of the C.D.B. into any position in the Land Commission. It gives Establishment— that is, the Establishment Branch of the Ministry of Finance—the power to establish any official of the Congested Districts Board, and to give him credit for the years he served in the C.D.B. It specifically provides power to give him credit for these years, notwithstanding that he has not been paid out of Vote, but out of Grant. It gives power to establish him and to give him pension rights. What more we can do I cannot see. That is all I have to say about the staff.

With regard to Deputy McGoldrick's point, I think he misunderstood me. The annual income of the C.D.B. is £231,000. They have saved a certain amount of that and they have £153,000 in the bank or in the stocking. I am not quite clear as to the point put by Deputy Cathal O'Shannon. He wants to know who is to administer the Sailors and Soldiers Act——

CATHAL O'SHANNON

I wanted to know whether the provisions of that Act which concerned the old Land Commission and the Estates Commissioners are to concern the new Land Commission.

Mr. HOGAN

There is a certain amount of land bought under the Sailors and Soldiers Act. It was bought before the Treaty was signed. Some of that land is divided; some is not. It will have to be financed by England. Every penny of it will have to be paid by England, and what is not divided must be divided under the Sailors and Soldiers Act. There is only about £200,000 worth of land undivided. It will be divided under the Sailors and Soldiers Act. The Act empowers the Land Commission to buy the land mainly for sailors and soldiers, and the interpretation of the word "mainly" is that they are giving about 51 per cent. to ex-service men and the 49 per cent. for the relief of congestion, which we consider an extremely good bargain, having regard to the fact that we are getting the land and the British Treasury is paying for it. There is one small estate being divided under that Act at present. What is happening is as follows:—There are six labourers' cottages on the estate. There are four ex-service men in the labourers' cottages. The four ex-service men—labourers—are getting four farms. The balance of the land is being divided amongst congests in that neighbourhood, and the British Treasury is paying for the whole performance. I do not know that there should be any real objection to that, but certainly I have none. I am quite satisfied that we ought not to repeal the Act and tell them to keep £200,000.

CATHAL O'SHANNON

Nobody suggested that.

Mr. HOGAN

The Deputy is quite right; nobody did suggest it. With regard to Deputy Wilson's point as to what we will save, I cannot say. We will not know what we will save until we amalgamate the staffs and until we get the service beginning work. It is perfectly obvious that we would be saving considerably, because this duplication of functions will have definitely ceased. But it will be difficult at any time to say what we will save, because the Land Act, when it is passed, will entail very much increased expenditure both for the Land Commission and for the Congested Districts Board. I agree with Deputy Wilson that it is not exactly a pleasure to us to have to supply a million pounds as part of the price of land which a number of tenants in Ireland are getting; but if the tenants wish to pay the full price, they have only to say it; it will suit us down to the ground. We gave this concession not so much in relief of rent, but rather as a concession to the general depressed state of agriculture. If the farmers admit, for the first time, that they have more money than they want, we will be only too pleased.

Mr. WILSON

We will fix the price.

Mr. HOGAN

I think these are the only points made. I beg to move the Second Reading of the Bill.

Motion: "That the Land Law (Commission) Bill, 1923, be read a Second Time," put and agreed to.

Committee Stage ordered for Thursday, June 7.