Vol. 3 No. 21
I beg to move:
"That a sum not exceeding £7,164,500 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1924, for expenditure in respect of the Army." (£3,500,000 already voted on account.)
I suppose we only have one hour to discuss this Estimate— this evening at any rate—and I would not have been surprised if I had heard that the Minister was again suggesting its postponement in view of that fact. The Estimate is to complete the sum of £10,664,500. Unfortunately the Deputies are not able to judge what is desirable in discussing estimates of this kind because of the lack of information. Explanation is given that the Army is in a state of re-organisation and that it is not possible to give details. I venture to suggest that that is a very good reason for postponing to a very much later date in the year the consideration of this Estimate, so that when the re-organisation is completed it would be possible to give us details. We ought at least to be told on this Estimate how many men we are to provide for. We have not been told. We have had a number of figures given to us occasionally of what the establishment is—never very definitely and generally in a casual way, ranging from 30,000 to 50,000 men. The Dáil does not know officially—I do not know whether any member of the Dáil knows—how many men are to be provided for in this estimate, but a more substantial reason I suggest for a postponement of this Vote is that we ought to know now what the legal position of the Army is.
What is this institution we are asked to vote £10,000,000 for? Presumably, it is for the up-keep of a body of men who have been called together at the initiative of the Executive to defend the State. That is not an Army. We have adopted, in these matters, the legal and constitutional procedure of the British legislature, and there it is essential that there should be an Army Annual Act, which is the means whereby the authority of the legislature is maintained over the Army. Now, an Army Act has been promised us for quite a long time. That is one of the many Acts that have been in preparation. Presumably, for purposes of economy, the Ministry thought it wise to limit the number of skilled men at the preparation of Bills for presentation, and the amount of necessary work that the small number of men have to do in preparing Bills is too great. Consequently, so exceptionally important a Bill as the Army Bill has not yet seen the light. I presume it is coming. How soon I dare not presume to say. I think the estimates ought, strictly, to be deferred until the Army Bill has been presented, at any rate, so that we should know what the intentions of the Ministry are in regard to the Army —the numbers we are asked to provide for and general establishment, and what strictly legal relations there are between the Army and the remainder of State institutions. I do not want to pursue that line of argument very far, but it is desirable, I think, that we should lay emphasis upon the necessity for having some legislation passed to put the Army into a proper position in the State. My main purpose in rising now, is to avoid the confusion that might arise by a simple discussion of details, ranging from one matter to another in the wide field of activities covered by the Army, for the purpose of confining the discussion at this stage to broader questions of policy, I am proposing to reduce the amount of this Estimate by £3,152,500, that is, the amount of the increase that is asked for this year over the amount that was estimated to be necessary last year. Incidentally, one might say, in respect of these Estimates, that we find ourselves in a difficulty in discussing them by not having anything to compare them with, and by not knowing to any extent whatever how much of the last year's Estimate was unspent. I think it is called for that the Minister shall justify their requests that we should vote over £10,000,000 for this year. I take it that military policy is dependent upon political policy. I take it that the policy in regard to the Army, the size of the Army, the activities of the Army and the expenditure upon the Army are all dependent upon the political policy of the Government and the general system of administration. We are in the first day of June, and this Estimate is from the end of March. April and May have passed and we find ourselves in what everybody hopes to be the beginning of a more or less peaceful condition of affairs as compared with what has been the experience of the last year. If it is the intention of the Ministry to maintain the present establishment through the year I have no doubt that £10,664,500 will be required. But is it the intention of the Ministry to maintain the present establishment? Is it the intention to maintain the present Army, no matter what the conditions may be? I presume the answer to that question is in the negative. In such a case so large a sum as £10,000,000 will not be required. I do not think that the Dáil should be asked to vote any increase upon last year's Estimate. £7,512,000 ought to cover expenditure on the Army, provided no military activity is required, and consequently we are entitled to ask the Ministry to give us some indication of policy which would require so large an expenditure, or to answer the suggestion that I make that a very much smaller establishment, and consequently a very much smaller expenditure, is necessary in the face of the conditions of the country to-day. I, therefore, am moving the reduction of this Vote by three million odd pounds on its merits, because the money will not be required, and, secondarily, with the object of inducing the Government to express their thoughts and intentions in regard to general policy touching defence and all that is or has been connoted by that term within the last year. In a supplementary question to-day I suggested that the policy of the Ministry, and the Government generally, in the past has been defended on the only ground on which it could be defended, that of military necessity, and I am going to ask whether it is still necessary, from a military point of view, that prisoners should be tried by special military courts. I want the Government to state that henceforth the power that has been given to them shall no longer be exercised by military Courts, and certainly not by Military Courts sitting in secret. I wish to urge that the necessity which was urged in the earlier debates on this question no longer exists for trials by Military Courts in secret. While I am on that point I want to draw attention to a document which reached me to-day, and which has been circulated by what the messenger, who delivered the parcel of these papers, described as the "Publicity Department." I take it that it is the Army Publicity Department. It is a document headed "A Painful Necessity." It is, of course, a defence of Government policy, and probably is intended to be a Party propagandist leaflet, issued at the expense of the State. In the course of this defence there is a paragraph which reads as follows. Speaking of the difficulties which faced the Government some time ago, and the patience with which they withstood the attacks, they say:—"Forced to act, the Government was still patient. It sought the approval of An Dáil, one of the most representative institutions in the world, in which Labour is strongly represented, before proceeding to inflict the capital punishment. When the approval was given the Government proclaimed a general amnesty," and so on.
Now, one would imagine from that that the approval of the Dáil was given without any protest, without any opposition. Apart from the claim that the Dáil is one of the most representative institutions in the world, which would be true if things were normal and all representatives attended, which, of course is not true, there is a suggestion that the powers that were given were given unanimously, and that there was general acquiescence in the proposals that were brought forward, and carried by a majority of the Dáil. I only just refer to that in passing, because it decidedly creates a false impression, because we who opposed the proposals at the beginning have never yet regretted our decision, and have never yet been satisfied that the powers given them were justified. That by the way. I have asked, therefore, that the Government should state their views on the question of maintaining in being these military courts, when there can be no claim put forward with success that a military necessity still compels their existence, I ask also whether it is necessary to continue the policy of searchings, arrests and imprisonments without trial, and whether the time has not yet arrived for a cessation of that policy. Men are still being arrested on suspicion and for purposes of prevention. They are being detained, and not tried and not charged with any offence. I would urge that it is in the interests of the State that that course of proceeding should stop, that the critical stage which existed, and which was said to justify the extraordinary acts and extra legal acts has now passed, and that there is no longer a necessity for continuing the procedure which we have been accustomed to for the last few months.
Then in regard to the detention of prisoners, this question is embodied in the question of the finances required, because a very great proportion of the money that is asked for is required for the payment of officers, and men and various other items in this A to Z list. The number of prisoners still in the control of the Army is said to be round about 12,000. A number, large or small I do not know, probably very large, possibly a majority, have been arrested for sympathy with the Irregular activity, there being, perhaps, reasonable ground for believing that that sympathy might develop into active support. There are 12,000 men and women under arrest, and I ask the Ministry to tell the Dáil whether they have come to any conclusion as to the length of time that it would be necessary to hold these prisoners, whether the intention is to hold them all until they are satisfied that every gun, every rifle, every round of ammunition, and every pound of explosive material has been raked up, and whether they have made any estimate, any calculation, as to how long it will take to make that general rounding up.
Further, I would like to ask the Minister to tell us whether, in considering the period of detention, they have also considered the effect upon the country of that detention, provided there is, as we hope, a cessation of armed activities. Can we take it that if the promise of that cessation is fulfilled there will be a steady release of prisoners and a general stoppage of the military activities, the searches, the arrests, and such-like on the part of the Army authorities?
One can forsee if there is no limit except the limit I have hinted at, of absolute surrender of all arms, ammunition and explosives, the detention of those prisoners going on for a very long time, and the effect upon the public of such detention, while there is no fighting going on, will be very bad indeed. It will be disastrous to the character of the State and to the Government which is responsible for the administration of State affairs. There must be, I submit, and there ought to be, a very early release of prisoners so long as the excuse of military necessity has gone by the board. I press upon the Ministers to give the Dáil some indication of their minds in this respect. I do not want to raise questions of detailed administration at this stage. We shall have to raise many questions, and, no doubt, they will be met one way or another. In the absence of more detailed explanation of what is covered by those allowances, the Dáil is somewhat handicapped in a proper examination of the estimates.
At this stage I would suggest we should discuss the general question of policy which is bound up with the Defence Department, and the policy upon which the Defence Department is to base its estimate. While I am moving for a decrease in the vote by £3,500,000, I am not for a moment suggesting that that can be saved in money. I am afraid it is impossible to satisfy the economists that any such cutting down of the estimates that I desire for Army purposes can be saved to the Exchequer. All that we can hope for is that we can divert the sum of money so saved to other public purposes, and that the men who would be demobilised, and who, we hope, shall be demobilised in very large numbers within the next few months will be utilised either in the ordinary industries from which they have been taken, or in some other constructional activities. I do not expect there is going to be any real saving of expenditure, but, I desire that expenditure should be in civil activities and not under the head of the Army. I know the Minister has occasionally made suggestions about using the Army on work of civil construction. I give credit to the full to the idea that is behind that suggestion. I want to urge again that it is not desirable in a time of peace, nor in a time of transition from warfare to peace that these works of civil construction outside the necessary military works should be carried through by attested men working under the discipline of an Army. In that respect I want to draw the attention of the Minister—this is one of the detailed matters which we will have to deal with later, but it touches the general policy— to information which has reached me regarding army officers approaching County Councils and asking for information as to what public works are required in the county, not work on repairs to breaches in roads, which might well be continued to be the work for the time being of the Army Works Department as it has been for a few months past, but on new roads and other works of a public character which the County Council in the normal course of its operations, would be carrying through by civilian labour. If my information is correct the County Council has been so pleased with the prospect that they have actually deferred doing this work in the expectation that the Army was going to do it for them. They have deferred taking on men because the Army was going to do the work for nothing. Some control from Headquarters should be exercised on local officers who are engaged in making suggestions of that kind. I think that in the course of replying to those questions I am puting to the Minister he should elaborate what is in his mind with regard to the work of the Army in those matters, and state whether he has not been convinced that it should be demobilised men by whom any such work as has been judged desirable should be carried through rather than by attested men still in the ranks of the Army, and subject to military discipline.
I think, apart from any of the specific questions I have put, that we should ask the Ministers to give us in some detail their views upon the present position, the prospect of the release of prisoners, the prospect of a general legalising of the procedure in connection with prisoners and arrested persons, and the going back or, shall I say, the going forward to normality in respect to the Law Courts, the Army, and citizens. Perhaps, also, the Minister would tell us when he is dealing with the numbers within the Army, the numbers to-day, the numbers he intends to keep, and how soon he proposes to demobilise, etc., whether he has any fixed policy in regard to existing military establishments or establishments which did exist and have now been destroyed; whether there is any policy yet decided upon in regard to the rebuilding of such barracks as did exist and have been destroyed; where it is intended that the army that is to be shall be billeted; and, generally, to give us some outline of the policy of the Ministry regarding the future army, the numbers they expect to keep as a normal force, and how soon they intend to reduce the establishment to that normal force. I beg to move that the Estimates be reduced by the sum of £3,152,500, that is to say, the amount which is named as the increase over the Estimate of 1922-23.
took the chair at this stage.
I must represent that we cannot agree to have the Estimate put back, or any section of it put back, for further consideration later on. The Estimate as it is before the Dáil is based upon the fact that we began the present year with 50,000 men, approximately, that at the present we have 49,000 men, and that by the end of the year we expect to reduce to between 28,000 and 30,000. That is all we can say with regard to the general policy of the Government as to the strength of the Army. Just as the Deputy is in difficulties in facing the Estimate from the point of view of not having any previous Estimate or figures or experience in dealing with Army Estimates before the Dáil, the Ministry is faced with the difficulty that it is dealing with a situation which luckily, perhaps, it has not had to deal with on any previous occasion, and we really have no experience of dealing with a national situation of the present type to which to refer, in the present circumstances, from the point of view of prophesying what we shall have to do to-morrow or the day after to-morrow. To a certain extent you feel that you are on the threshold of having peaceful conditions in the country, but actually we must know, and everybody must realise that you have in the country here a solution that is fairly saturated with quite a number of virtues and quite a number of vices, and that it simply depends upon what particular crystal develops in a situation, what particular crystallisation is going to develop out of it. An angry word of a man in any particular district might develop your war situation. A move by some politician, for one reason or another, may give you a war situation out of the vices, shall I say, that are present amongst us to-day, just as, if left alone, out of the very considerable virtue that there is amongst us we could very easily pass to a very peaceful situation.
As to the actual position of the Army, the legal position of it, I doubt very much whether that has created any serious difficulties for anybody's conscience, legally or otherwise, in the country. You ask to-day what is this Army for which this Estimate is put up before the Dáil, and it is a question that very easily answers itself, bearing in mind our experience of the last six or eight months. Nobody, I take it, seriously suggests that whatever about withdrawing the Army from its actual position of, shall we call it, interference in the affairs of this country, nobody would suggest its being taken entirely out of the situation. In framing our Estimates we have prophesied to a certain extent that it shall be possible, in, say the near future, to take the Army from the position of actual interference in the affairs of the country; that there shall not be, we hope, in a short time any military necessity for the employment of the Army on the scale to which it has been employed up to the present time. But that does not mean that it can vanish entirely. We hope we shall be able to reduce it, and that by concentrating on training that even with reduced numbers we shall be in a position from a military point of view to deal with any military necessity that unhappily might arise. I think that bearing in mind the whole circumstances of the situation, and what possibly faces us during the current year, that it is unreasonable to ask that the Estimates should be put back for discussion until such time as the present Ministry is in a position to state what is its general Army policy, and what type of Army we would have here in normal conditions. The Government is dealing with the position of the present year, dealing with the machinery that will bring us through the present year, and it will be later on in this year at any rate, when the minds of the present Government, or of any Government, will be in an atmosphere in which it would be wise to begin to discuss these particular problems, and to base their financial arrangements on the results of these discussions. The military necessity for using the Army at the present moment, does exist, and the military necessity for utilising the powers under the resolutions passed here by the Dáil for dealing with certain events certainly does exist.
The next two or three weeks may be able to determine whether a change can take place, but the Government is perfectly prepared to move very rapidly in facing a rapidly changing situation. If the situation in the country rapidly changes in the direction in which we see it changing, and in which we hope it will continue to change, then it will be possible for the Government to change, and change quickly its attitude of dealing with suspects, dealing with prisoners, and dealing with people convicted of a certain class of crime. The document referred to by the Deputy as having been circulated to-day cannot have come from the Army Publicity Department. I doubt if such a Department exists. The detention of prisoners is a matter certainly that is a financial infliction in the country. A very considerable amount of money is spent on their upkeep and the keeping of guards over them, and there is no doubt a very considerable loss to the country in a number of ways by the fact that these men, some of them, at any rate, are withdrawn from what might be called productive employment. On the other hand, your situation here is certainly not a stabilised peace situation, and you can very easily run the risk of inflicting financial losses a thousandfold on the country by anything like indiscriminate dealing with the prisoner problem, or by hasty dealing with it at the present time. On the question of the possibility of money which it is proposed to include in the Army Vote being taken out of it and used for other and more constructive purposes, I doubt it, and I would not recommend demobilisation of the Army to any greater extent than we have contemplated in putting up this Estimate. I would not be prepared to recommend it, and I do not think the Government of the country would be on safe ground if anything like it was done. I have not any very great hope, at any rate, I cannot contemplate at the moment, that any bulk of this. Vote will be taken from the Army Vote and set aside for constructive work. Only as you go along from day to day, or from month to month, can you see where you can introduce restrictions, and where you can introduce economies. Anything that, from day to day, it is possible to do to prevent unnecessary expenditure in connection with the Army is being done, but I cannot agree to have it held over us that the Army as it stands at present can be reduced here on this Vote. I am perfectly open-minded in the matter of constructive work, whether it should be done in present circumstances by men acting under discipline as soldiers, or otherwise. Actually we have made arrangements with the Postmaster-General by which in certain parts of the country where there are certain military dangers at the present moment some of the telegraph lines which are in urgent need of being restored for the public use, will be restored by small bodies of soldiers that we are detaching specially for that class of work. The work is on a par with that of road-mending and bridge construction, of which the Army has done such a lot recently. Within the last six or eight weeks in Kerry, the Army there has built over 40 bridges, bringing a very, very great amount of relief to the civil population in that area. In the area of Kerry, and one or two other areas, we hope to be instrumental in restoring at any rate some telegraphic and telephonic services in the very near future. I cannot blame, I am afraid, those of our officers around the country who are concerning themselves with what problems of construction lie before the different County Councils, or before the people of any of these areas. If the County Councils in any particular area expects that the Government are going to do their work by means of the Army I suppose it is simply as a result of seeing the Army doing so many things for so many different Departments. On the matter of policy there is not at the present moment anything contemplated in that particular direction, and there will not be without perfect understanding of the lines on which such work will be done. There is no definite scheme made, and there is no definite scheme being worked out.
Would I be in order to move to report progress as it is now very near the time for private business which I was informed by the Ceann Comhairle would be taken at 6 o'clock.
It is now 6 minutes to 6.
I notice one item on this Vote termed "civilian workers." I wonder what that means when the Army Council is requesting civilian workers to attest? I raised this matter on the adjournment of the Dáil some time ago. I also desire to mention the orders or invitations that the County Councils have received from officers stationed in certain towns. I am aware, and I can state without contradiction, that the County Council of Westmeath have left over the making of three or four new roads simply because an officer approached the County Surveyor, the County Secretary and some members of the Council, and requested them to furnish him with details of any new or necessary public works that were to be done, as the military were prepared to carry out these works.
resumed the Chair at this stage.
I thought the military were to carry out these works, and certainly this particular County Council congratulated itself on the stroke of good luck that they were going to have by such a generous offer by the military to carry out the work free of charge to the ratepayers, and, consequently, these roads are left there untouched waiting for the military to come down and to make them; and I can supply the Minister for Defence with the cutting from the Press where it is stated that the work was to be taken on to-morrow or at a future date. I think that to deprive the workers in the country generally, and the men who have been engaged at this particular work for years, of their means of livelihood by placing men on the roads in military uniform would be very curious indeed. Another thing, I certainly fail to see how any of the Councils can expect the Army Authorities to make new roads for them free of charge, when every individual in the country, not alone the ratepayers, but everybody else as well, are the people who, by paying duties in the shape of taxes, have to pay the cost of this work, and of course these taxes will not come down while we have to maintain such a huge Army. I certainly do agree that the Army has done a good deal of necessary work and good work in the country. I quite agree with that point. But if the Army has done such good work we are all very glad, and I am sure further that the Dáil was rejoiced to hear the Minister for Defence say that he hopes that in a fortnight or three weeks time there will be absolute peace. I am sure that the people at the present time require peace, but how can you have peace if you are going to create a new war through the country by placing men in military uniform on the roads while men who should do this work, and who are members of Trades Unions, are drawing the Unemployment dole.
There is another point I want to raise, and that is concerning the prisoners. The Minister for Defence stated that the prisoners number from 12,000 to 14,000 at the present moment. I am quite sure that a large number of these prisoners were men simply arrested on suspicion. I raised a question in the Dáil about some of these men who, I had been informed, signed the form to be released, but whose release is still not sanctioned. If you have 14,000 prisoners, or probably more, men and women, see what a loss that is to the nation. Surely there must be at least 8,000 of these prisoners who are purely innocent people. If that be so, if there are eight thousand of these prisoners innocent people it points to one sure fact that the Irish have become a great deal more Irish than they were in the old times. Furthermore, I ask the Minister for Defence to state if he possibly can, the amount of money it takes for the maintenance of all these prisoners, and further if he can state from what fund that money is taken?
From this Estimate?
From this Estimate. I see that it is now 6 o'clock, and as this debate has to be adjourned, will I be allowed to continue my speech when it is next resumed?
The Deputy has two speeches in front of him, if he wishes under the Standing Orders.
