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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 15 Jun 1923

Vol. 3 No. 28

COMMITTEE OF INQUIRY INTO THE FISCAL SYSTEM.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce, in conjunction with the Minister for Agriculture, has now appointed this Committee. The members are:—

Professor Smiddy, Chairman.

Professor Bastable.

Professor R.M. Henry.

Mr. Geo. O'Brien.

Professor J.G. Smith.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce will appoint the Secretary to the Committee, and an Assistant Secretary will be appointed by the Minister for Finance.

The Terms of Reference to the Committee are as follows:—

To investigate and report—

(a) as to the effect of the existing fiscal system, and of any measures regulating or restricting imports or exports, on industry and agriculture in the Saorstát, and

(b) as to the effect of any changes therein intended to foster the development of industry and agriculture,

with due regard to the interests of the general community and to the economic relations of the Saorstát with other countries.

The qualifications of the members of the Committee do not need much enlargement. The Chairman, Professor Smiddy, is well known as the Professor of Economics in University College, Cork, and as the representative of the Saorstát in the United States for some considerable time past. Before accepting his appointment in University College, Cork, Professor Smiddy had practical experience of business; he acted as Economic Adviser in the negotiations leading up to the Treaty, and while in the United States he had opportunities of studying intimately the working of the tariff system of that country.

Professor Bastable is the author of the standard work on principles of taxation, and his reputation extends far beyond Ireland. We are fortunate to have available his special experience.

Professor Henry, of Queen's University, Belfast, has had many years' experience of industrial questions as Chairman of Trade Boards since their inception, and will greatly assist the Committee in considering the effect of a fiscal system in its relation to the important industrial area of the North.

Mr. Geo. O'Brien, nominated by the Minister for Agriculture, is a member of the Agricultural Commission and a specialist in agricultural economics. As the Committee will first be considering industrial questions it is intended that Mr. O'Brien should continue his valuable work for the Commission on Agriculture, being concerned for the present with the inquiries of this Committee only in so far as they affect agriculture and the agricultural community.

Professor J. G. Smith, who is a native of Galway and a Scholar of Trinity College, Dublin, is Professor of Economics in Birmingham University. He has a close acquaintance with economic conditions both in Ireland and Great Britain, and has recently published works on practical aspects of Commerce that have commanded wide appreciation.

It will be seen that the distinguished members of the Committee will bring to their inquiries not only a knowledge of the conditions in Ireland, North and South, but also an acquaintance with conditions in Great Britain and the United States, two countries with which the trade relations of the Saorstát have an immense importance.

In a recent discussion in the Dáil the view was advanced that the inquiry should be conducted by "business men affected every day by the operation of the present fiscal system." The Committee is not intended to be an instrument by which beneficially interested parties can secure the acceptance of particular doctrines; its purpose, on the contrary, is to secure a disinterested, balanced and exhaustive analysis of a complex problem on which the future of the whole country largely depends.

This purpose would not be achieved by drawing the personnel of the Committee from the various business and trading interests, every one of which claims an alteration of the fiscal system for its own particular advantage.

What we feel is essential is that we should have a Committee consisting of persons with expert knowledge of all the various factors and circumstances that make towards the economic welfare of the country, who are at the same time disinterested parties and can accordingly give impartial consideration as between the interests of the general community and the interests of any particular section that may seek to establish a privileged position.

The problem of adjusting and regulating the fiscal system of the country in the manner best calculated to accord with the economic needs of the country is a problem of supreme importance. The people of this country have had little opportunity in the past of informing themselves in regard to all the related facts on which their decision as to the economic policy of the future depends— for this is not a question merely for a section or a party, but for the whole people—and it is, therefore, essential that the facts should be reviewed by experienced and disinterested men, accustomed to examine all sides of such a question without prejudice or bias. The country may have full confidence in the ability of the Committee appointed by the Ministers for Industry and Commerce and for Agriculture to ascertain and present all the data necessary for a right conclusion.

It is facts and not policy which the Committee is intended to determine. Every proposition that is advanced will be examined solely with a view to ascertain and to inform the community as to all the facts. The Committee is not expected to advocate policy. That will be a matter for the people and the Government when they have the facts before them. The Committee will be accessible to every interest affected in this matter, and the Government, which intends to develop the resources of the country by every means consistent with the general well-being of the community, will ensure that every interest has full consideration for its difficulties and its needs.

The Committee will determine its own procedure, and will, no doubt, prefer to hold its sittings in private in view of the confidential nature of much of the matter it will require to discuss with traders and others. It will probably find it convenient to begin by an investigation into the effects of the situation as it is. Any party that has a case to put before the Committee should prepare a preliminary written statement, giving in detail all relevant particulars. It is obviously desirable that, so far as possible, proposals should be put forward by bodies acting in a representative capacity. The circumstances of particular firms or persons may need special enquiry, but if each manufacturer or trader insisted on putting forward his own special case, the enquiry would be prolonged indefinitely.

I must add one word regarding what I may describe as the financial aspect of the Committee's investigations. It will not be the task of the Committee to overhaul the complete fiscal system of the Free State from the point of view of taxation and revenue, and in the nature of things the Government must especially reserve to itself freedom to review the Committee's recommendations in the light of their effect on the National Budget by reference to the existing state of the national finances.

This question of a Fiscal Commission is an important one.

That question cannot be discussed now, as this is only a statement.

I want to ask, are we going to get an opportunity of discussing this? If not, I presume that other methods will have to be utilised to discuss the question.

It was intended to start the work of this Committee on Monday. Considerable delay has been occasioned already. We brought Professor Smiddy from America. If the Dáil desires to have a discussion, it will hold up the work of the Committee. I do not know that there is any method for discussing this other than the proposing of a vote of no confidence in the Ministry. If that is desired, I will be willing to give the opportunity of doing so. On the adjournment, of course, a considerable amount of criticism may be offered.

I should like this matter to be discussed, but not on a vote of want of confidence in the Ministry. The matter is so vital, affecting as it does the whole economic outlook of the nation, that the statement should be circulated. We should get time to consider it, and then have a formal debate on it.

Do the terms of reference include the examination of subsidies, bounties, and the like which do not deal with exports and imports?

If it is necessary I will move a vote of no confidence to draw attention to this matter. I do not think that they shall have the confidence of the country if they proceed in such a way as this. Agriculture should have a representative there. These people know nothing about agriculture proper. There has been a consistent policy by this Government——

The matter cannot be discussed now. If Deputy Gorey wants to move a vote of no confidence he must give notice.

Has not the President stated that he is willing to have it discussed now?

It is not fair to ask us to discuss this on the adjournment, as we have not had time to consider the statement. I suggest that if it is raised on the adjournment it should be discussed on some other occasion.

In any event, whatever be the merits or demerits, one question Deputy Johnson asked certainly deserves consideration. That is: Do the terms of reference exclude the bounties or subsidies?

I do not think so

They could be so construed.

I do not think it is likely.

Am I to understand this Committee is to meet on next Monday?

You kept the child covered pretty closely.

But for the Land Bill I would have announced it on Wednesday.

You would have announced many things.

I would, sure.

When is an opportunity to be given to discuss this question?

I suggest some day next week, on the adjournment. Meanwhile, this letter could be circulated amongst the Deputies.

It could be fixed for Monday. Would Monday suit Deputy Gorey?

Any day will suit me; I will be ready at any time.

Would Sunday do?

Yes, Sunday if you like.

The arrangement of a day was only mentioned in a statement by the President. Surely there should be a motion in this matter?

If it is necessary I will give notice that I will raise the matter on Tuesday.

It would be well to follow the Standing Orders to some extent in this matter. It can only be brought forward now by suspending the Standing Orders and bringing it on as a matter of urgent public importance. It can come forward regularly on Wednesday if notice is given. May I suggest, in the way this matter has been brought before us, that it is merely a Committee set up by a Department to advise the Department and the Ministry of what it is going to do? It is a private enquiry, and there may have been a dozen private enquiries of the same kind within the last twelve months.

On a point of order, are we discussing the merits or demerits of this Committee, or are we deciding as to whether or not we will discuss this matter again?

We are discussing Standing Orders.

Unless there is a formal motion, this thing cannot come forward. It is not a matter for discussion or a matter that requires the consent of the Dáil. Therefore, the wiser and orderly course is to put down a motion expressing dissatisfaction with the action of the Government in forming this Committee on this important subject.

I do not think the ruling of Deputy Johnson is quite correct. I understand that on the motion for the adjournment Deputies are entitled to raise any questions they may desire.

It all depends on the time at which you give notice.

Notice can be given by any Deputy to raise important questions on the adjournment, and those questions can be raised provided the notice is given after question time.

If any matter of this kind is raised on the adjournment, it cannot be discussed for longer than half an hour.

That is so; but discussions have never been curtailed here on any important matter.

I want your guidance on this matter. How are we to have an opportunity for full and free discussion?

If Deputy Gorey reads the Standing Orders he will quickly know what to do.

For his information I may say that the matter can be raised on the adjournment, and general criticism may be indulged in by Deputies to their heart's content. If they are satisfied, after showing their form, that they will be able to shove out the Government a notice of motion could be given to show want of confidence in the Government. Then we will go out, and you can come in.

Some of us will go out when the people get a chance of speaking.

God save Ireland.

And the schoolmasters.

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