I beg to move "In Sub-section (1), line 15, to insert immediately before the word `Act' the words `part of this.' " This is merely a drafting amendment.
NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE BILL, 1923. - DÁIL IN COMMITTEE.
Sections 1 to 9, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 10.
(1) If an arrangement is made before the appointed day between the Insurance Commissioners and the Joint Committee for the establishment of a Board containing representatives of the Insurance Commissioners and the Joint Committee for making apportionments, determinations and adjustments both under this Act and under any corresponding legislative enactments in Great Britain, any apportionment or determination of a share in funds or other financial adjustment required by this part of this Act shall be made by such Board.
In default of such arrangement being so made all apportionments, determinations or shares and adjustments required by this Act shall be made by the Insurance Commissioners.
(2) Such Board as aforesaid or the Insurance Commissioners, as the case may be, shall have full power to make such apportionments, determinations and adjustments, and to do all such things as they may consider necessary or expedient to carry into effect the objects of this part of this Act, and to complete as at the 1st day of March, 1922, the apportionment of the assets and liabilities of the Irish National Health Insurance Fund as between Saorstát Eireann and Northern Ireland.
Amendment agreed to.
I move amendment 2, which is a question of a clerical error: "In Sub-section (2), line 20, to insert immediately before the word `to' the words `such Board shall further have power.' "
Agreed.
Question put: "That Section 10, as amended, stand part of the Bill,
Agreed.
Section 11 put and agreed to.
SECTION 12.
The Insurance Commissioners shall carry to a special account—
(a) All funds which in pursuance of this part of this Act are transferred to the Insurance Commissioners by or on behalf of an Irish Society or branch or by the Joint Committee under the National Health Insurance (International Arrangements) Order, 1923; and
(b) such funds as represent the amount held by them immediately before the first day of April, 1922, on behalf of British Societies and British branches, subject to such adjustments as may be necessary in respect of the period between the said first day of April and the appointed day;
and out of that account shall be transferred all funds which, by virtue of this Act, are to be transferred by the Insurance Commissioners to or to the account of any Irish Society or branch, or to the account of the Dissolved Societies Fund.
I move: "In line 43 to delete the word `amount' and substitute in lieu thereof the word `amounts.' " This amendment is also a correction of a clerical error.
Amendment agreed to.
Question put: "That Section 12, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
Agreed.
SECTION 13.
(1) There shall be constituted under the control and management of the Insurance Commissioners a special fund to be known as the Military Forces (International Arrangements) Insurance Fund, the membership of which shall on and after the 1st day of July, 1923, consist of persons who are resident in Saorstát Eireann on the 1st day of July, 1923, and were immediately before that date members of the British Navy and Army Fund, and of such of the following persons as may be agreed upon between the Insurance Commissioners and the Joint Committee under any mutual arrangements for securing the continuity of insurance of such persons, that is to say—
(a) persons who having served in the Naval, Military, or Air Forces of Great Britain are or become on or at any time after the 1st day of July, 1923, resident in Saorstát Eireann;
(b) persons who, having served in the armed forces of Saorstát Eireann, are or become on or at any time after the 1st day of July, 1923, resident in Great Britain.
(2) There shall be transferred to the credit of the Military Forces (International Arrangements) Insurance Fund by the Insurance Commissioners the equivalent of such sum as on the apportionment of the British Navy and Army Insurance Fund under this Act is found to be as at the 1st day of July, 1923, appropriate to the members of that Fund who are under this section transferred to the Military Forces (International Arrangements) Insurance Fund.
(3) All members of the British Navy and Army Insurance Fund who are under this section transferred to the Military Forces (International Arrangements) Insurance Fund shall, on and after such transfer, have the same rights against and obligations to the Military Forces (International Arrangements) Insurance Fund as immediately before such transfer they had against and to the British Navy and Army Insurance Fund.
(4) There shall be credited to the Military Forces (International Arrangements) Insurance Fund all contributions paid by or in respect of members of that Fund, and the proper proportion of the sums required for providing benefits for members of the Fund and for the expenses of administration of such benefits, together with such further sums as may from time to time be required for securing the solvency of the Fund, shall be paid out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas.
I move amendment No. 4:—To delete the Section and insert in lieu thereof the following Section:—
13. (1) There shall be constituted under the control and management of the Insurance Commissioners a Special Fund to be known as the Military Forces (International Arrangements) Insurance Fund, the membership of which shall, on and after the 1st day of July, 1923, consist of:—
(a) Persons who are resident in Saorstát Eireann on the 1st day of July, 1923. and were immediately before that date, members of the British Navy and Army Insurance Fund;
(b) such persons, if any, as may be agreed upon between the Insurance Commissioners and the Joint Committee under any mutual arrangements made under this Act for securing the continuity of insurance of persons who, having served in the Naval, Military or Air Forces of Great Britain, are or become at any time after the 1st day of July, 1923, resident in Saorstát Eireann;
(c) persons serving in the armed forces of Saorstát Eireann who, immediately prior to enlistment, were resident in Great Britain and were members of Irish or British Approved Societies;
(d) persons serving in the armed forces of Saorstát Eireann who elect under the provisions of Section 19 (1) (b) of this Act, to become and become, members of the Fund.
(2) Regulations made by the Insurance Commissioners may prescribe the conditions under which a member of the Military Forces (International Arrangements) Insurance Fund may continue to be a member of that Fund.
(3) There shall be transferred to the credit of the Military Forces (International Arrangements) Insurance Fund by the Insurance Commissioners the equivalent of such sum as on the apportionment of the British Navy and Army Insurance Fund is found to be, as at the 1st day of July, 1923, appropriate to the members of that Fund who are under this section transferred to the Military Forces (International Arrangements) Insurance Fund.
(4) For the purposes of such provisions of the Acts as may be prescribed by regulations made by the Insurance Commissioners, the Military Forces (International Arrangements) Insurance Fund shall be deemed to be an Approved Society, and the members of that Fund shall be deemed to be members of an Approved Society, and the provisions of the Acts relating to Societies and to members and membership of and transfer to and from Societies, and relating to persons lapsing from insurance, shall apply to members of the Military Forces (International Arrangements) Insurance Fund, subject to such modifications as may be prescribed by such regulations.
(5) All members of the British Navy and Army Insurance Fund who are under Sub-section 1 (a) of this Section transferred to the Military Forces (International Arrangements) Insurance Fund shall, on and after such transfer, have the same rights against and obligations to the Military Forces (International Arrangements) Insurance Fund as immediately before such transfer they had against and to the British Navy and Army Insurance Fund.
(6) There shall be credited to the Military Forces (International Arrangements) Insurance Fund all contributions paid by or in respect of members of that Fund, and the proper proportion of the sums required for providing benefits for members of the Fund, and for the expenses of the administration of such benefits, together with such further sums as may from time to time be required for securing the solvency of the Fund, shall be paid out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas.
The differences between the existing Section 13 and the new Section are that Sub-section 1 is re-drafted, but not altered in substance; Sub-sections 2 and 4 are new; Sub-sections 5 and 6 are exactly the same as the existing Sub-sections 2, 3 and 4. I do not think the sense of the section is altered in any way.
Will the Minister tell us what the effect of the alteration is?
The original Section was not officially correct, and it has been remedied in three places, I think, in order to put it right. It is really more a matter of wording of official amendments than it is of any change in substance.
Amendment agreed.
Question put:—"That the new Section stand part of the Bill."
Agreed.
Sections 14, 15, 16, 17 and 18 put, and agreed to.
SECTION 19.
(1) For the purpose of providing soldiers to whom this Part of the Act applies with such benefits during their term of service and after their return to civil life as are mentioned in this Part of the Act, the sum of four pence and one half-penny per week shall be paid by the Minister for Defence out of moneys to be provided by the Oireachtas to the Insurance Commissioners in respect of
(a) every soldier who at the date of his enlistment was or is a member of an Approved Society;
(b) every soldier who at the date of his enlistment was not a member of an Approved Society, but elects to become and becomes a member of an Approved Society in Saorstát Eireann, in the case of a soldier enlisted before the passing of this Act, within three months after the passing of this Act, and in the case of a soldier enlisted after the passing of this Act within three months after the date of his enlistment;
(c) every soldier who prior to his enlistment was resident in Great Britain and becomes on enlistment a member of the Military Forces (International Arrangements) Insurance Act in pursuance of this Act or any arrangements made thereunder.
(2) The weekly sums of four pence and one-half-penny payable under the foregoing sub-section shall commence
(a) from the 1st day of April, 1922, in the case of a soldier who enlisted before that date and was at the date of enlistment a member of an Approved Society;
(b) from the date of enlistment in the case of a soldier who enlisted after the 1st day of April, 1922, and was, or is, at the date of enlistment a member of an Approved Society;
(c) from the 3rd day of July, 1922, or the date of enlistment, whichever is the later, in the case of a soldier who enlisted before that date and was not a member of an Approved Society at the date of enlistment, but duly becomes such a member pursuant to the foregoing sub-section;
(d) from the date of enlistment in the case of a soldier who enlists after the passing of this Act and is not a member of an Approved Society at the date of enlistment. but duly becomes such a member pursuant to the foregoing sub-section;
(e) from the date of enlistment in the case of a soldier who on enlistment becomes a member of the Military Forces (International Arrangements) Insurance Fund.
(3) The number of persons in respect of whom payments are to be made under the foregoing provisions of this section shall be ascertained in such manner and the sums to be paid thereunder shall be paid to the Insurance Commissioners in such manner and at such dates in each year as shall be agreed between the Insurance Commissioners and the Minister for Defence.
(4) This section shall not apply to a soldier who enlisted before the age of 16 until he attains that age, and on his attaining that age shall apply to him as if he had enlisted at the time when he had attained that age.
(5) Notwithstanding anything to the contrary in the Acts, a soldier who was or is at the date of his enlistment a Deposit Contributor, and who does not, within three months after that date, or, in the case of a soldier who enlisted before the passing of this Act, within three months after the passing of this Act, join an Approved Society in Saorstát Eireann, shall be treated as having ceased to be an insured person on and from the date of his enlistment, but on his discharge or, if he dies while a soldier, on his death he shall again be treated as a Deposit Contributor, and the balance which was to the credit of his account in the Deposit Contributors Fund at the date of his enlistment shall be replaced to the credit of his account in the said Fund.
To Section 19 there were amendments on the Paper, and at 12.45 to-day further amendments were received.
I move: "To insert the words `Irish or British' immediately before the words `Approved Society' in Sub-section (1), line 32, and in Sub-section (2), lines 50, 53, 58 and in line 3, page 10."
The object of the amendment is to make the meaning of the Section more clear. It does not in any way alter the sense of the Section.
Agreed.
I move: "In Sub-section (1) to delete clauses (b) and (c), and substitute in lieu thereof the following:—
(b) Every soldier who at the date of his enlistment was not a member of an Approved Society, but who, having been resident in Saorstát Eireann prior to enlistment, elects to become, and becomes a member of an Approved Society in Saorstát Eireann, or who, having been resident in Great Britain prior to enlistment, elects to become and becomes a member of the Military Forces (International Arrangements) Insurance Fund, provided he so elects and becomes a member of such Society or Fund within three months after the passing of this Act, or the date of his enlistment, whichever is the later."
It is also a drafting amendment.
Agreed.
I move: "In Sub-section (2) (c), line 57, to delete the words `that date,' and substitute in lieu thereof the words `the passing of this Act.” It is also a drafting amendment.
Agreed.
I move: "In Sub-section (2) (c), line 59 to delete the word `such,' and to insert immediately before the word `pursuant' the words:—`of an Approved Society in Saorstát Eireann or of the Military Forces (International Arrangements) Insurance Fund.' ”
Agreed.
I move: "In Sub-section (2) (d) line 4, to delete the word `such' and to insert immediately before the word `pursuant' the words:—`of an Approved Society in Saorstát Eireann or of the Military Forces (International Arrangements) Insurance Fund.' "
Agreed.
I move: Section 19 (2), to delete the paragraph (e).
Will the Minister explain this, because it seems to be rather important?
It is necessary on account of previous official amendments. I think the one to which it refers is Amendment No. 6:—"Every soldier who, at the date of his enlistment, was not a member of an approved society," and so on, that it is covered by that. This particular amendment that has been accepted, has all those embodied in (e), and (e) would be a superficial proviso.
That is, paragraph (e) of Sub-section 2, as it stands in the Bill, is a repetition of Amendment 6, as now accepted?
Of the sense of it.
Amendment agreed to.
Question put: "That Section 19, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
Agreed.
SECTION 20.
A soldier in respect of whom a sum of four pence and one half-penny per week is paid by the Minister for Defence under the provisions of this Part of this Act shall until his discharge be treated as an employed contributor subject to the following modifications:—
(a) The weekly sums paid by the Minister for Defence shall be treated for all purposes as payments of contributions at the employed rate.
(b) He shall be entitled to Maternity benefit, but not to Sickness, Disablement or Sanitorium Benefit.
(c) The date of his enlistment as a soldier. or, if he enlisted before the passing of this Act, the date of that passing shall, unless he was at the date of his enlistment an insured person, be treated as the date of his entry into insurance.
(d) There shall be credited to the Approved Society or Fund of which he is a member a sum equal to five pence and one half-penny for each weekly contribution paid, and an equal sum shall be treated as having been expended on benefits, and the proper proportion thereof shall accordingly be paid out of money provided by the Oireachtas.
I beg to move: "In paragraph (c), line 42, to delete the words `of that passing,' and insert in lieu thereof the words:— `from which weekly sums became payable in respect of him by the Minister for Defence under this Part of this Act.' ”
It is a purely verbal correction.
Agreed.
Question put:—"That Section 20 as amended stand part of the Bill."
Agreed.
Section 21 agreed.
SECTION 22.
In calculating arrears of contributions for the purposes of the Act no account will be taken of any arrears accruing during any period when the person in question has been subjected to a reduction of, or been disentitled to, Sickness and Disablement Benefit by virtue of this Part of the Act.
I move: "In line 14, to delete the word `will,' and insert in lieu thereof the word `shall.' "
Agreed.
Question put: "That Section 22 as amended stand part of the Bill."
Agreed.
Agreed, that Sections 23, 24, and 25 stand part of the Bill.
SECTION 26.
(1) Such part as the Insurance Commissioners may direct of the sums which under Section 29 of the Act of 1918 (which provides for the disposal of sums unclaimed in the Stamp Sales Account) are to be carried to the National Health Insurance Central Fund shall, instead of being so carried, be credited to Approved Societies in accordance with Schemes to be made by the Insurance Commissioners with the approval of the Minister for Finance, and any sums credited under this Section to an Approved Society shall be applied by the Society in such manner as the scheme may provide for the purpose of preventing any members of the Society who are in arrears and to whom the schemes apply from so continuing to be suspended from benefit.
(2) This Section shall be deemed to have been in force and shall have effect as from the 31st day of December, 1921, and shall continue in force until the 31st day of December, 1923.
I move: "In Sub-Section (1), line 1, to delete the word `scheme,' and insert in lieu thereof the word `schemes.' "
Agreed.
I move: "In line 3, to delete the words `so continuing to be suspended from benefit,' and to substitute the words `being or continuing to be suspended from benefit or from having their benefits reduced, except by such amounts as the schemes may provide.' "
Agreed.
Question put: "That Section 26 as amended stand part of the Bill." Agreed.
I move: To insert immediately before Section 27 a new Section as follows:—
(1) Section 54 of the Act of 1911 shall be construed and take effect as if:—
(a) the words "Military Force (International Arrangements) Insurance Fund" were substituted for the words "Navy and Army Insurance Fund," wherever those words occur in the said Section and
(b) the words "Minister for Finance" were substituted for the words "National Debt Commissioners" wherever those words occur in the said section, and
(c) the words "in which trustees are for the time being authorised by law to invest trust moneys" were substituted for the words in Sub-section (3) beginning "which are for the time being" and ending "1890 to 1909" (inclusive).
(2) So much of the securities vested in the National Debt Commissioners under the said Section 54 of the Act of 1911, at the passing of this Act as are proved, on any apportionment made under this Act or otherwise, to be attributable to Saorstát Eireann may be transferred to and received by the Minister for Finance, and when so received shall be held by the Minister in accordance with the provisions of the said Section 54.
Question put:—"That the new Section stand part of the Bill."
Agreed.
Agreed that Section 27 stand part of the Bill.
SECTION 28.
This Act may be cited as the National Health Insurance Act, 1923, and shall be construed as one with the National Health Insurance Acts, 1911 to 1921, and those Acts and this Act may be cited together as the National Health Insurance Acts, 1911 to 1923.
I move: "Before Section 28 to insert a new Section as follows:— Any Regulations or Orders made under any of the provisions of the Act of 1918, imposing a fee on insured persons desiring to transfer from one Approved Society to another, are hereby repealed, and, for a period of twelve months from the passing of this Act, transfers of members between Societies may be effected without fee charged."
After that wonderful exhibition of faith in the good sense and administrative abilities of the Minister and his Department, I think that there is not much to be said in favour of this Amendment, because it will only require something of this kind to be a set-off to all that has passed. The object of the Amendment is to nullify to some extent any faults that may have occurred through the hurried rushing of this Bill through the Dáil, and the circumstances that have preceded the bringing of this Bill to the Dáil. Many persons have been transferred automatically without their knowledge from British to Irish societies.
Many persons are and have been in Irish societies more or less without choice, and the object of the amendment is to allow for a time—I have suggested twelve months—such transfers as are allowable under the Act to be made without a fee to the transferred person. This was the condition of things prior to 1918. Since that time there has been a transfer fee charged. But especially touching members that are now being transferred from English societies, it is desirable, I submit, that such transfer of individuals after the 1st July should be facilitated where the individual makes such a claim, and he should not be penalised for the faults of the administration. With that end in view I propose the Amendment.
I suppose the Deputy is aware of the fact that the reason for the inclusion of the charge of 2/- was to cover the cost of the transfer. The cost to a Society by the loss of a member is calculated at 2/-, which about covers the cost of labour, postage, and other incidental expenses. If the amendment is passed it would mean that any person in any Society could elect to transfer to any other Society, and that would afford a licence which has not been in operation for nearly five years. I do not know if the Deputy had in mind giving an opportunity to all persons to change. Apart from the actual cost entailed, it is thought inadvisable to allow an opportunity for canvassing, I think it is called grabbing. From that point of view I am not disposed to look favourably on the amendment. I do not know if the Deputy had any intention to allow complete power of transfer in those cases. Quite a small number would be affected in the sense, which he has described the case for, and the sum involved might be very considerable and the result unsatisfactory. I am advised that it would not be an improvement in all the circumstances.
I suggest that the case which I have cited is of pressing importance. Leaving out the general question of the transfer of members of Irish Societies, the case of the transfer of members of English Societies, who must be transferred by the 1st July, and who are being transferred, practically, without their knowledge, and under powers which we are now considering, places these members in an unfortunate position. I submit that we are in duty bound to give these transferees the right to re-transfer to such Society as they choose without paying a fee. The position is that insured persons are permitted to transfer, subject to approval by the Commissioners, but that transfer must be accompanied by a charge of 2/-. That is not the case where an insured person is assumed to have chosen his Society, but in the case in question which is especially in mind, the case of transfer of members who are being transferred automatically under the provisions of this Bill. There has been provisional transfer, and people are being transferred, provisionally, in the expectation that this Bill will authorise such transfer. The very fact that we are discussing this matter on the 19th June, and the whole business has to be made legal by the 1st July, and the transfers must automatically have taken place before the 1st July, surely imposes on us an obligation, and we ought not to penalise the individual who desires to transfer at a later stage to a Society which he chooses to transfer to. It seems to me that the request is a very reasonable one, and I am rather disappointed that the Minister has not acceded, at least, to the principle of the amendment. We have some responsibility, and I think that the Minister ought not to forget that many members are being transferred and that they know nothing whatever about the conditions of their transfer, with whom they will be associated, to what Society they will be going—nothing, in fact, touching the question at all. I do not mind what period is selected if it is a period after the 1st July, so that when the Bill becomes law, and the insured person knows what the law is, he should have the right to choose to what Society he wishes to belong. If such transfer is not allowed, and if such an amendment is not met fairly, I think that the Bill would not, perhaps, have received quite the same facilities as it has had for its passing.
I propose to meet the Deputy, though he has not come far on the road to meet me. I propose to insert a new Section before Section 10 as follows:—"The provisions of Proviso (e) to Sub-Section 1 of Section 14 of the Act of 1898, requiring the payment of a fee by a member of an Approved Society on terminating his membership, shall not apply in the case of any person who becomes a member of an Approved Society in Saorstát Eireann on the 1st July, 1923, in accordance with the foregoing provisions of this part of this Act, and who gives notice within six months from the passing of this Act, of his desire to terminate his membership.”
That will meet the main point. I hope there will be some provision made whereby there will be some easing of the situation regarding transfers in general. I think that power rests in the Commissioners, and I would ask that that whole question be considered with a view to facilitating transfers, if the Commissioners approve of such transfers. It is a point that may be dealt with by the Commissioners alone apart from this Bill.
This amendment by Deputy Johnson will be withdrawn, and the President can move his amendment on the Report Stage.
The President has produced his amendment as the result of a case made by Deputy Johnson for the transfer of members of English Approved Societies who automatically must go into an Irish Approved Society before the 1st July. I hope now that the President will see that his new resolution will not allow that resolution to be used for the purpose of any Irish society poaching the members of any Irish Approved Society which has members already. That point has been completely hidden, and I would ask the Minister to go carefully into it, and see with regard to Irish societies that members already in a society will not be taken from them by any means brought about by the introduction of this resolution. You may see a number of efforts made to start new Irish societies, and attempts will be made to induce other members to leave societies already approved of by the Commissioners. The point I mention would prevent future trouble, and will save a lot of expense.
I think the point the Deputy made has very nearly upset my can of milk.
What is the meaning of that metaphor? Amendment withdrawn.
Question: "That Section 28 stand part of the Bill," put and agreed to.
Question: "That the title stand part of the Bill," put and agreed to.