I move: "That a sum not exceeding £10,580 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1924, for salaries and expenses of the Marine Service."
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - ESTIMATES FOR PUBLIC SERVICES. MARINE SERVICE.
Before this Vote is passed, I should like to ask the Minister in connection with item (d) as to whether there is great dissatisfaction with the amount that the men who recover salvage are allowed. I will give a case in point. Not long ago there was £60 worth salvaged. The men who salvaged that amount of property and brought it to shore only got £17 11s. 6d. Now that was not as good as what the old British regime allowed. They would give a third. The men maintain that they should get at least half of what they take from the sea, and that is fair, very fair.
I will undertake to look into that, and bring it to the notice of the Assistant Minister who is away to-day on some other business.
Under the heading (e) “The Preservation of Life from Shipwreck, Maintenance and Housing of Life-Saving Apparatus, and Exercising of Crews,” I notice here an item. I would like to ask the Minister when was the last exercise held, when it is intended to hold the next one, and also what appliances are going to be given out to these men? Will they be the most up-to-date appliances in the service, as used in other countries; also what is the condition of the cars in that particular service?
On this general question the position of this service, so far as I have been able to learn, is that it is about the most unsatisfactory of many of the services, perhaps the most unsatisfactory of all the services that there are under the Ministry. The position is, perhaps, changed from what obtained three or four months ago. But I believe that the control of this service, and the methods whereby discipline is sought to be enforced, and the general terms upon which men are engaged and dismissed are quite unsatisfactory.
I have no papers with me to refresh my memory, but in the case of one vessel which was in this service for a considerable time, and is now under repair, the allegation is made, and I think is well founded, that the Command, in order to cover its own defects, has victimised experienced sea-going officers who were dismissed without any good reason, and were refused even inquiry. I am referring to the "Helga" when engaged on sea services some months ago round the coast of Kerry. Complaints reached me, and were transferred to the Minister responsible for that service, and detailed particulars were given of the way two successive officers were treated under a captain who himself was transferred from the command of that ship to other work, but who, while in command, ran that ship ashore, necessitating, or at least contributing to the necessity for, the big expenses that have been incurred in the repair of that ship. The responsibilities for the expenditure due to the captain's alleged inefficiency was thrown upon the engineering staff, and I believe undeservedly. Now, the engineers in question were men who had long service, and some of them knew this same vessel when she was under the Fisheries Board. Surely men with certificates, and whose demand is that they should be entitled to what they would get in ordinary mercantile service, namely, that someone competent to examine into the case should be asked to judge the merits of their defence, should not be refused redress of that kind. These men were dismissed without any reason, as I believe, and no discharge was given. Particulars have been sent to the Minister responsible, but no satisfaction has been given, and I think the claim that is made by these men for an inquiry into the case, and for the reasons for their dismissal without discharge, should be acceded to and an opportunity given to these men to reinstate their characters for efficiency in their work. This is not a question of moral defects; it is a question of efficiency and competency, and the men concerned are prepared to meet any person capable of estimating the value of the case they put forward and abide by such a decision.
Then I have another case where a man of exemplary character and capacity in the Merchant Service, with years of service as an officer in one of the big liners, came to Ireland and took up a post on one of those small vessels desiring, for patriotic reasons, to do what he could by serving in his profession in this country. He has been treated, I believe, by men who are incompetent to judge of the merits of the case, and has been dismissed from the service without any discharge or character. Now, these three cases, I think, are typical, or at any rate they are significant of much dissatisfaction within the service and significant of the reasons for that dissatisfaction. From what one can hear there is a good deal to be said in favour of a very thorough reorganisation of the controlling influence. I am not for a moment speaking of the ultimate head of the service, but the service generally, in the directive Departments, seems to be at fault, and the complaints that are made are very widespread indeed. I would ask, in the case of the three men I have referred to, that they at least should be guaranteed the right to appear before a competent tribunal of professional assessors to judge of the rightness or the wrongness of the complaints and to give the men an opportunity of reviewing the charges, of refuting the charges of incompetency that are alleged against them, and which they allege were made to cover the deficiency of incompetent superiors.
Under head (g) there is a sum of £8,000, and as it is stated in a note that the details of this service are at present under consideration I would like to know from the Minister what class of men it is proposed to put in as coast watchers. At the moment I understand the Army are detailed for such work. In my opinion, this work ought to be allotted to men with nautical experience; they will be the best for the purpose. I would like to know if we could have tentatively an interim report to show at this stage what it is proposed this service will do for the country, and what it is proposed these men should do. In view of the fact that £3,000 was spent in 1922-23, the Minister ought to be able to say something about it.
I would suggest to the Minister that when he comes to deal with this matter he should employ `longshore men, who would be the best, in the absence of the coastguards, for this work. Of course, a good deal is said against them, but take the case of a ship on a lee shore at night; as far as I know there is no one to keep a watch out for signals in such a case. I would ask the Minister to give careful consideration to this matter, as nothing looks so hopeless and so helpless out at sea as a ship in distress, and, as far as I know, there are no eyes watching through the night. I ask the Minister to bear that in mind, and to employ 'longshore men or men with nautical experience, as explained by Deputy Corish. Of all the services that should get attention at the moment, the most important of all is that of life-saving. I would like to know when the last exercise was held, and I might say that it is just as important that men should be trained in that as in the case of the lifeboat service.
My instructions are that effective machinery for the registration of ships and seamen has been established, and that the service for the salvage of wrecks and the life-saving apparatus around the coast is being overhauled. Much damage, during recent years, has been done to the buildings and equipment of this service, but an inspection of all the old stations is now practically completed. On the east coast 14 stations have been re-established, and these are being re-equipped. Practices and drills have been restarted, and the service will be in working order in a few weeks. Similar action is proceeding in the stations on the south and the west coast, so that before winter effective measures, in the event of wrecks on any part of the coast of the Saorstát, can be taken. Drills have already taken place at Clogherhead, Skerries, Balbriggan, Greystones, and other places, and further drills will take place as the damaged buildings are completed and as more recruits are got together. A Deputy tells me that he has already seen one of these drills take place on the east coast.
At what particular point did the Deputy say?
He did not tell me the place. I take it, it was at one of the stations that I have just read out. With regard to coast watching, the sum down for the service is £8,000. This is the estimated amount that would be required for setting up, around the coast, a system of watching for wrecks, and for the installation of life-saving stations and apparatus. As far as this Ministry is concerned, life-saving only is involved in this particular Vote. Other duties that have been mentioned, and that have been performed by the coastguards in the past, are now under the Revenue Commissioners or the Minister for Defence.
If this particular service is going to be re-established, will provision be made to keep a look-out for wrecks during the whole 24 hours of the day?
I understand that will only be done at times when very bad weather prevails.
Would a fog be counted very bad weather?
I imagine it would. A few inspectors will comprise the staff permanently employed, and it is anticipated that once the stations are properly equipped they will perform their work to satisfaction. Life-saving crews will be composed generally of fishermen, and men of that type. Regarding the matter mentioned by Deputy Johnson, I think I know the case that he mentions, at least I know a case somewhat similar. If it be the same case as he mentions, I know the man for a very long time, and I was very much disappointed when I heard that there was some sort of dissatisfaction about some service that he had rendered. I had intended to go into the whole matter with the Minister for Defence, and, as a matter of fact, had taken it up already with him on two or three occasions, but owing to the pressure of business recently I was not able to see the matter to the end. However, if Deputy Johnson will give me the name of the person in question I will undertake to take it up personally, and see that there is a fair investigation.
The Minister did not say from what walk of life it was intended to recruit coast watchers.
He said fishermen, as far as possible.
Yes; they are, I suppose, what is included in the term "longshore men."
Is coast-watching at the present moment under the Ministry of Defence?
To some extent it is, and to some extent under the Revenue Commissioners.
Is that to be a permanent arrangement?
I cannot answer that question off-hand.
I do not think an arrangement of that kind would be a wise one. I do not think you would get men in the army sufficiently experienced to do work of that kind.
I suggest it would be better to issue advertisements for men for positions in the service. If that were done, I think it would help to get good, qualified men.
Is it true that in Wicklow town coast watchers have already been selected, and that the coastguard station there has already been taken over for coastal defence? I suggest that this service should be under the control of the Minister for Fisheries, and that it should be kept clear of the army altogether. I have also to make a complaint somewhat similar to that made by Deputy Johnson. It is in regard to the case of three men who were discharged and who are prepared to submit evidence as to their ability and their knowledge of the sea. Three other men have been appointed in their places, and I desire to ask the Minister if I give him the names of the dismissed men will he undertake to have an investigation made in their cases as he has promised to do in the case mentioned by Deputy Johnson?
I think, in the case mentioned by Deputy Johnson, a grave injustice is being done to one man who has a long association with this profession, and who up to that moment had, I think, an excellent reputation in his profession. A master's certificate is not easily got, and I should say not easily kept, and if through any mistake or possible miscarriage of justice the man might lose that in our service, or through any association with us, I think it is a case for investigation. With regard to the matter of employment, I think it is scarcely fair to put that to me on the same terms, because if this particular service of coast watching — I might say again that the only part which concerns this particular Vote or this Ministry is the life-saving one — but, if the Deputy puts to me that particular recruitment of the staff should be from a particular order or place, I say that at a moment's notice he should not press me to give an answer on that. If there are suggestions with regard to making this particular Service efficient from Deputies, having close association with districts and with the Service generally, I would be very glad to receive them and to bring them to the notice of the Minister for Defence, and discuss these things with him.
I was glad to hear the statement of the President. I would like to ask him to guarantee, before this Service is handed over to the Ministry of Defence, that the Dáil should have an opportunity to discuss it. I do not think that there ought to be any permanency in connection with his control.
I have made a suggestion already to the Minister in connection with recruits for this Service. It was, "first in, first served," the men being suitable.
Question put and agreed to.