DAIL IN COMMITTEE. - DEFENCE FORCES (TEMPORARY PROVISIONS) BILL, 1923. THIRD STAGE.
Section 1.—This Act may be cited for all purposes as the Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) Act, 1923.
This Act shall continue in force for one calendar year after the passing thereof and shall then expire.
I move amendment 1: "To delete lines 6 and 7 and to substitute the following:—`This Act shall continue in force until other provisions shall have been made by law for the defence of Saorstát Eireann, and shall not in any case continue in force after a perion of one year from the date of the passing thereof.' " The amendment is introduced as a result of certain criticisms when the Bill was last before the Dáil, with the intention of meeting them.
Agreed.
Motion made and question put: "That Section 1, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
Agreed.
Section 2 put, and agreed to.
On Section 3 I would like to ask the Minister for Defence if he would look again and see whether he does not consider that the wording of Sub-section 11 could be a little more carefully defined than it appears to have been. "The expression `battalion' in the application of this Act to cavalry, artillery, or Engineers shall be construed to mean regiment, brigade, or other body into which the Minister, under the powers conferred on him by this Act, may be pleased to divide such cavalry, artillery, or engineers." Exactly how a battalion can be either a regiment or a brigade, I do not know, but "or other body" is rather an extension of defining what is a fairly well known body in military affairs.
The word is taken as a convenience, and will not give rise to any difficulty with regard either to the Act or our own particular regulations. At the present moment the organisation is in a fluid condition, and we find it convenient to be able simply to define any body of whatever kind for different purposes.
Is it a matter of convenience that a corporal's squad may be called a battalion? That is what the section means.
Occasions will not arise in which we will call a body like that a battalion, but occasions will arise in which it will be necessary for us to define a unit, for which we have to find some word, and we find it convenient in accordance with our general organisation to make that word "battalion."
Sections 3 and 4 put and agreed to.
SECTION 5.
"The control of the Forces shall be vested in the Executive Council, subject to the provisions of this Act."
I move: "On page 10 to delete the section, lines 34 and 35, and to substitute the following:—
"5. —The command in chief of and all executive and administrative powers in relation to the forces including the power to delegate authority to such persons as may be thought fit shall be vested in the Executive Council, and exercised through and in the name of the Minister who shall not however allocate to himself any executive military command, and who may not be a member of the forces on full pay."
That amendment is also introduced to meet the views expressed by Deputies when the Bill was previously before the Dáil.
resumed the Chair at this stage.
This amendment helps to meet the criticism that was made, but I am not quite sure that it satisfies the requirements. Perhaps, in the present circumstances, it may be the best way to act, but the association of the words, "Minister for Defence" with "the Commander-in-Chief," seems to me to be still open to the objection. The Commander-in-Chief of any Army, whatever he may be legally, so far as the army is concerned, is considered to be the active head of the army, and, I think that we ought to attempt to dissociate the two offices much more than is done in this proposal. That the Minister for Defence is a civilian, and a member of the Executive Council, as he probably would be, responsible to the Oireachtas to whom the Commander-in-Chief of the army would be subordinate, is the idea I think that ought to be embodied in any army legislation. While it is probable that, in fact, this new section would accomplish that if we could delete the title, the insertion of the title in the consequent amendments rather spoils the effect of the section. I do not know whether one could imagine the Commander-in-Chief being a person who was prohibited by the Public Safety Act from appearing in uniform, but if he does appear in uniform, immediately he is a military person and not a civilian.
Whatever the effect of the introduction of this section may be in law, the psychological effect upon the army is that no change is taking place, and that as a matter of fact the Commander-in-Chief of the Army is the man who is Minister for Defence. I do not think that that is satisfactory, and I do not think that the amendment meets the requirements of the case. However, I am not attempting to amend this Bill. I think the conditions under which it is introduced rather deprive us of any real value in criticism. But I make that protest against the attempt to associate the military hand with the Minister for Defence.
I beg to suggest that perhaps Deputy Johnson's point is not quite exactly as he thinks it is. If I understand this amendment correctly the Commander-in-Chiefdom is a personal appointment, and ipso facto ceases to exist. The Free State Army, when this amendment is adopted, will become like other armies in which the position of Commander-in-Chiefdom may be delegated ad hoc——
It does say the Commander-in-Chiefdom is vested in the Executive Council. In very few armies in Europe except under active war conditions, and then only for defined areas and for purposes appointed specially, are there Commanders-in-Chief. It seems to me that the passing of this amendment would mean that such an appointment as a personal appointment ceases and that the Executive Council ipso facto becomes the Commander-in-Chiefdom.
I may say in my criticisms of this I am connecting the new Section with the amended First Schedule No. 18, and it is the connection of those two that made me utter the criticism I did utter.
Portion of the Ministries Bill which will deal with the Ministry of Defence will of necessity be a complement to the Army Act, and the actual state of affairs will be as indicated here in Clause 5. In actual practice and other ways I do not think that Deputy Johnson's objection in this particular matter will be substantiated in any way.
I would like if the Minister would answer the question I have put. I put to him in categorical form: Does the passing of this amendment mean that the title Commander-in-Chief as a personal title ceases to exist and that the Executive Council becomes Commander-in-Chief and there will be only that Commander-in-Chiefdom and the Minister through which it acts?
Under the Ministries Act the Minister for Defence will have associated with him a Defence Council, and the first military member of that Council in ordinary times will be the Chief of Staff. As a military position the position of Commander-in-Chief will cease to exist.
Unless I presume it is called into existence again under Section 27—"In time of war or internal disorder the Executive Council may place any officer of the Defence Forces in Command of the whole or any portion of those Forces in the field." That is, I presume, the office of Commander-in-Chief will revive?
Yes, it will revive as a military position.
Amendment put and agreed to.
Section 5 accordingly deleted.
Motion made and question put: "That the new Section stand part of the Bill."
Agreed.
SECTION 6.
ORGANIZATION OF THE FORCES.
(1) The Forces shall consist of officers who are appointed officers thereof, and of non-commissioned officers and men who are bound to continue service for a term.
(2) Members of the Forces shall serve under such conditions and for such periods and at such rates of pay as may be prescribed.
There is a small amendment necessary there. The Minister agrees with it. It is after the words "as may be prescribed," to add "with the consent of the Minister for Finance."
Amendment put and agreed to.
The word "prescribed" is already defined in Section 3.
Motion made and question put:—"That Section 6, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
Agreed.
Sections 7 and 8 put and agreed to.
SECTION 9.
The following shall be the grades of non-commissioned rank in the Forces:—
(a) Non-commissioned Officers—
(1) Sergeant-Major.
(2) Quartermaster-Sergeant.
(3) Sergeant.
(4) Corporal.
(b) Men—
(5) Private.
With regard to Section 9, I want to ask a question on what is, perhaps, a small matter. Comparing these non-commissioned ranks with the particulars given in an answer by the Minister to a question put by me on the 23rd March, I find that reference was made there to a Company Sergeant as receiving a certain salary. That rank does not appear here at all. Is it the case that the Sergeant Major is a warrant officer? In that case, is this Sergeant Major the Company Sergeant to which reference is made here?
The Sergeant here is a Company Sergeant, and the Sergeant Major would be the Sergeant Major of a battalion.
In that case he would hardly be a non-commissioned officer; he would be a warrant officer.
We are making no provision for warrant officers.
Section 9 agreed to.
SECTION 10.
The Minister may appoint to commissioned rank or temporary commissioned rank in the Forces any person. All commissions shall be in the form specified in the First Schedule hereto, and shall be signed by the Minister.
I move Amendment No. 3:—On page 11, to delete the Section, lines 10, 11, 12 and 13, and to substitute the following: —
10. —"The Executive Council may on the nomination of the Minister appoint any person to commissioned rank or temporary commissioned rank in the Forces. All commissions shall be in the form specified in the first shedule hereto and shall be signed by the President of the Executive Council and the Minister."
This amendment is introduced as a result of discussion which took place when the Bill was last before the Dáil.
Does that mean that the same power remains in the amendment as is in the Bill, that any person who is not now a member of the Army may become a member of it in this way?
Yes, with the limitation suggested in the discussion last day.
Amendment agreed to.
Motion made and question put:—
"That the new Section stand part of the Bill."
Agreed.
SECTION 11.
The Minister may dismiss or dispense with the services of any Officer, or discharge any other member of the Forces.
I move Amendment 4: "On page 11, line 14, to insert before the words `the Minister' the words `the Executive Council acting through.' "
Amendment agreed to.
Motion made and question put:—
"That Section 11, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
Agreed.
Sections 12 and 13 agreed to.
SECTION 14.
The executive military command and inspection of the forces or any portion thereof may, subject to this Act, be vested in such officer or officers of the Forces as may be appointed by the Minister.
I move Amendment No. 5, on page 11, line 29:—"To delete the words `the Minister' and to substitute the words `the Executive Council.' "
Amendment agreed to.
Motion made, and Question put:
"That Section 14, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
Agreed.
SECTION 15.
All Officers of the Forces shall hold their Commissions during the pleasure of the Minister, but the commission of an Officer shall not be cancelled without the holder thereof being notified in writing of any complaint or charge made, or any action proposed to be taken against him, nor without his being called upon to show cause in relation thereto.
Provided that no such notification shall be necessary in the case of an officer absent from duty without leave for a period of three months or more.
I move Amendment No. 6: "On page 11, line 31, to delete the words `the Minister' and to substitute the words `the Executive Council."
Amendment agreed to.
Motion made and question put:
"That Section 15, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
Agreed.
SECTION 16.
The Minister may, notwithstanding anything to the contrary in this Act contained or by regulation prescribed, reward any member of the Forces for distinguished services by appointing him to commissioned rank, or if be an officer, by promoting him to higher rank.
I move Amendment 7:—"On page 11, line 39, before the words `the Minister' to insert the words `the Executive Council on the recommendation of.' "
Amendment agreed to.
Motion made and question put: "That Section 16, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
Agreed.
Sections 17 to 22, inclusive, put and declared carried.
I wish to be taken as dissenting from the provisions of some of these Sections.
In regard to Section 23, I think we ought to get some information as to the costs of the Military College which is proposed to be set up. In point of fact, I would like to know did the Ministry of Finance make any further inquiries as to what the cost of this institution is likely to be. I would also like to know if it is intended to establish a college during the course of the operations of this Bill when it becomes an Act.
I do not hope to get established within the lifetime of this Act an institution that we could point to and say, "This is our Military College," and be proud of it. Of necessity we are making certain arrangements for the higher military education of officers, but it will be an institution of very natural growth; it is very embryonic at present, and its development will be the development of an embryo. I am not able to give any information at all as to what the cost of such an institution would be likely to be. If we are able to set aside half a dozen experienced officers to see after the higher education and higher instruction of our officers any time within the next twelve months, I will be very happy, and our Military College will be something of those dimensions by the time a permanent Bill comes before the Dáil.
Sections 23 to 109, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 110.
(1) Where it appears on the trial by courtmartial of a person charged with an offence that such person is by reason of insanity unfit to stand his trial, the Court shall specially find that fact and such person shall be kept in custody in the prescribed manner until the directions of the Minister thereon are known or until any earlier time at which such person is fit to take his trial.
(2) The Minister may give orders for the safe custody of such persons during his pleasure in such manner as he may think fit.
(3) A finding under this section shall be subject to confirmation in like manner as any other finding as is hereinafter provided.
I move Amendment 8:—"On page 37, line 48, immediately after (1) insert (a); in line 55, delete (2) and substitute (b); in line 57, delete (3) and substitute (c); in line 60, delete 111 and substitute (2)."
Amendment agreed to.
Motion made and question put: "That Section 110, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
Agreed.
Sections 111 to 124, inclusive, put and agreed to.
SECTION 125 (POWER TO MINISTER TO MAKE RULES OF PROCEDURE).
I beg to move Amendment No. 9:—"To add a new sub-section: `The Rules Publication Act, 1893, shall not apply to rules made under this section."
The procedure is that rules will have to be placed before Parliament for forty days. In this temporary Act which we are framing the regulations will have to be brought into operation immediately, and the effect of this new Sub-section would be that these would come into force immediately without having to wait for the period of forty days.
Amendment agreed to.
Motion made and question put: "That Section 125, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
Agreed.
Sections 126 to 143, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 144 (ENLISTMENT PERIOD OF SERVICE)
I had been expecting an official amendment here in response to the pledge given by the Minister on Second Reading. He said then he was prepared to have an enlistment period of 18 months, with two years in the Reserve. I had been expecting an amendment carrying out that pledge, but I do not see it here. The time served in all Armies is very short nowadays, and the expenses consequently small. I will not go into any argument now, but it is to be regretted that the Minister, having given a pledge, did not bring forward his amendment, and I suggest that he should move it now.
I made a statement that it was not our intention to have recruiting for a long period. I also made the statement, even if we had this Bill before us as a Bill and even if we intended to make provision by which men could be enlisted for twelve years, it was not our intention to enlist men for such long periods; but we left the clause as one that gave us a certain amount of latitude, and we thought it advisable to have it in at the present time. I do not intend to change it now, and I do not think that I gave the impression that I did. I simply made the statement of what our intention was, but actually I could not agree to a reduction to such a figure as that. At the present moment we will begin recruiting for our bands, where the men will be given a very systematic course of musical training, and our intention would be that men more or less permanently recruited for bands would be recruited for a period of not less than five years. You cannot take a man into a school of music and start him on systematic work and have him leave the Army or the band in 18 months or two years, at a time when he would just be beginning to be of some use to us. Then, again, if we made the change from 12 years now there would have to be a number of consequential changes throughout the Bill, and I think the simplest thing is to leave the matter undisturbed in this temporary Bill, knowing what our definite and clear intention is, and that there is no likelihood of any number of men or of any men being recruited for 12 years. It was simply a matter of convenience and of not making a change in a temporary Bill which would involve quite a number of changes. If we did put in five years there might be a tendency on our part to recruit men for five years, and we do not want to do that, so I think it was much better for all parties to leave that part of the Bill as it is.
This rather raises a question that we had once or twice before. I do not propose to argue the case the Minister presented, but for those who require some kind of technical training I think some form of words could be found. With regard to soldiers, any pledge given by the Minister is not binding on any person who may succeed him. It is not even binding upon himself. If circumstances, in his judgment, require some variation of it, this Dáil could not recognise a pledge of that kind. The right procedure is that pledges given and which were sincerely meant and called for, should be embodied in the legislation which is being passed and to which they relate. If the Minister's intention is to recruit for eighteen months, with a subsequent period of two years in the Reserve, such as he distinctly stated here on the occasion of the Second Reading, then I think that the pledge ought to be put into the Bill and made binding legislatively. I go further and say that I asked him definitely upon this matter, would he put his pledge in regard to recruiting into the Bill, and he replied to me definitely that it was going into the text of the Bill.
I wish to create no wrong impression. I may have agreed, but I cannot conceive that I made a statement that I would change any of the clauses in regard to enlistment. I only had that in my mind. I was not thinking of doing a certain amount of redrafting, and that would have to be done if the period was changed in this Clause, because other clauses hang upon it. I said what our intentions were, and even if our intentions were not definite as between enlistment for eighteen months and two years for the reserve, I pointed out to the Deputy that he need not press his point, because the Bill was purely temporary. Even if we did enlist for a period of twelve years, there would be nothing to prevent those persons having their period of service terminated at any particular time by any subsequent Government.
I do not want to press this matter unduly, but I urged and suggested to the Minister that in consonance with Section 1 as amended and adopted by this Dáil the clauses in this Chapter 5, under the head of Enlistment, could also be altered in consonance with the alteration of Section 1.
I raised this point originally. I went into the matter fully, and I find that it would be absolutely impossible to amend the Bill in the time at our disposal so as to preclude the Minister, if he thought fit, setting up military colleges for recruiting an unlimited number of men for a period of twelve years. But I came to the conclusion, having regard to the specific statement the Minister made of his policy and the policy of the members of the Executive Council that we might rely upon it that after the period of twelve months this Bill will have to come before the then Dáil for renewal, and I think the Minister will find that if he is confronted with a definite bargain definitely broken, that it would go very hard with him in the Dáil. I do not anticipate myself that any such thing will occur. I think he regards this, and the Government and the Executive Council regard it, as a definite, specific bargain entered into in specific circumstances, and they will not confront the new Assembly with a standing Army as a fait accompli. I think it would be far safer to rely on the promises that have been given than to endeavour now to accomplish the impossible task of trying to tinker with this Bill. The only effect in trying to do that would be to defeat the whole object of the Ministry in producing this Bill at all in order to try and regularise things in the time at their disposal. We never could get through all the clauses in the time at our disposal or draft amendments, and therefore we are bound to take the Bill as a whole on the pledge given by the Minister, and not to try to amend Chapter 5, or other clauses, because we would only find we had reduced the whole thing to a state of chaos.
I quite appreciate the matter, and, as I said, I do not intend to press it, because I dealt with it on Second Reading, and received a certain intimation which I construed in a certain way, and which left a clear impression upon my mind that amendments would be introduced. I am satisfied merely to draw attention to the matter now.
Section 144 put and agreed to.
Section 145 to 155 agreed to.
SECTION 156.
(In imminent national danger, the Executive Council may continue soldiers in Army Service or call out the Reserve on permanent service.)
I beg to move an amendment in Section 156, page 53, Sub-section (3), lines 41 and 42, to delete from the word "under" to the end of the sub-section, and insert the words, "this Act relating to the Reserve."
Amendment agreed to.
Motion made and question put: "That Section 156, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
Agreed.
Section 157 agreed to.
SECTION 158.
(Delivery of lunatic soldier on discharge with his wife and child at workhouse, or of dangerous lunatic at asylum.)
I beg to move Amendment 10: "In Sub-section (3) to delete lines 34 and 35, and to substitute the following:—"Section of the Statute passed by the Parliament of the late United Kingdom, 30 and 31 Vic., Cap. 118, intituled."
Amendment agreed to.
Motion made and question put: "That Section 158, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
Agreed.
Sections 159 to 219, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 220.
(Calling out the Reserve on a permanent service.)
I move Amendment 12: "On page 78, Sub-section (1), line 22, to delete the word `forces' and to substitute the word `Reserve.' "
Amendment agreed to.
I move Amendment 13: "In Sub-section (4), line 35, to substitute the word "fifty-five" for "fifty-six." It is merely a clerical error.
Amendment agreed to.
Motion made and question put: "That Section 220, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
Agreed.
Sections 221 to 232, inclusive, agreed to.
PART 4.
(Transitory Provisions.)
Sections 233 and 234 agreed to.
SECTION 235.
The command-in-chief of and all executive and administrative powers in relation to the National Forces (including the power to delegate authority to such persons as he shall think fit) shall be vested in the Minister.
I move: "To delete the section and to substitute the following:—
`235. —The command-in-chief of and all executive and administrative powers in relation to the National Forces (including the power to delegate authority to such persons as may be thought fit) shall be vested in the Executive Council and exercised through and in the name of the Minister.' "
That amendment is in consonance with the principle involved in an amendment already accepted.
Amendment agreed to.
Motion made and question put: "That the new Section stand part of the Bill."
Agreed.
Sections 236, 237 and 238 put and agreed to.
SECTION 239.
(All officers now serving in the National Forces shall continue to hold their appointments as such during the pleasure of the Minister.)
I move: "To delete the words `the Minister' and to substitute the words `the Executive Council.' "
Amendment agreed to.
Motion made and question put: "That Section 239, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
Agreed.
SECTION 240.
(The Minister may dismiss or dispense with the services of any officer of the National Forces, or discharge any soldier of the National Forces.)
I move: "Before the words `The Minister' to insert the words `The Executive Council acting through.' " That is also consequential.
I would like to ask in that connection if there is any protection in this clause making it necessary that some adequate cause should be shown for such dismissal? It reads rather peremptory as it stands.
Section 15 provides that "the commission of an officer shall not be cancelled without the holder thereof being notified in writing of any complaint or charge made or any action proposed to be taken against him, nor without his being called upon to show cause in relation thereto."
Amendment agreed to.
Motion made and question put: "That Section 240, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
Agreed.
Sections 241, 242 and 243 put and agreed to.
SECTION 244.
(The Minister may make regulations relating to all matters which are by this Part of this Act required or permitted to be prescribed or which are necessary or convenient to be prescribed for securing the good government of the National Forces, or for carrying out and giving effect to the provisions of this Part of this Act.)
I move: "To add a sub-section as follows:—
(2) The Rules Publication Act, 1893, shall not apply to regulations made under this section.' "
That amendment is identical with one already accepted.
Amendment agreed to.
Motion made and question: "That Section 244, as amended, stand part of the Bill, put, and agreed to.
Section 245 put and agreed to.
FIRST SCHEDULE.
Form of Commission to an Officer.
SAORSTÁT ÉIREANN.
OGLAIGH na hÉIREANN.
KNOW ALL MEN BY THESE PRESENTS that trusting in your loyalty to our country and reposing special confidence in your courage, honour, good conduct and intelligence, I, Minister for Defence, in exercise of the powers in that behalf vested in me by the Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) Act, 1923, do hereby constitute and appoint you to be an officer in OGLAIGH na hÉIREANN as from the day of 19. You will bear true faith and allegiance to our country and serve and defend her against all her enemies whomsoever. You will discharge your duty in the rank of or in such higher rank as your merit may hereinafter determine your appointment or promotion to, which appointment or promotion will be notified in theIris Oifigiúil. You will exercise and train in arms and maintain in good order and discipline the soldiers and inferior officers serving under you, who are hereby each and all enjoined and commanded to render you obedience as their superior officer. You will yourself observe and obey without question such orders and directions as you shall from time to time receive from the Minister for Defence for the time being or from any of your superior officers according to law.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF I have hereunto set my hand and affixed my seal at this day of in the year of Our Lord one thousand nine hundred and
Commander-in-Chief and Minister for Defence.
I move:—
Form of Commission to an Officer.
To delete the form and to substitute therefor the following:—
To (Name of Officer)
trusting in your loyalty to our country, and reposing special confidence in your courage, honour, good conduct and intelligence, the Executive Council of Saorstát Éireann, in exercise of the powers in that behalf conferred by the Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) Act, 1923, hereby constitutes and appoints you to be an officer in OGLAIGH na hÉIREANN as from the day of 19. You will bear true faith and allegiance to our country and serve and defend her against all her enemies whomsoever. You will discharge your duty in the rank of, or in any higher rank to which your merit may hereafter determine your appointment or promotion, which appointment or promotion will be notified in the Iris Oifigiúil. You will exercise and train in arms and maintain in good order and discipline the soldiers and inferior officers serving under you, who are hereby each and all enjoined and commanded to render you obedience as their superior officer. You will yourself observe and obey, without question, such orders and directions as you shall from time to time receive from the Minister for Defence, for the time being, or from any of your superior officers according to law.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF WE have hereunto set our respective hands and seals at this day of in the year one thousand nine hundred and
Signed,
President of Executive Council of Saorstát Eireann.
Minister for Defence, Commander-in-Chief.
Should not "Commander-in-Chief be omitted there also?
I was going to raise that point. If the points that were made in favour of Amendment No. 2 are valid, then the last three words in the Schedule ought to be deleted. There is no good reason given as to why they should remain in, and I think there are many good reasons why they should be deleted.
The Ministries' Bill is a complement of the Army Bill, and in order to run properly complementary with it, it is necessary that in the issuing of Commissions "Minister for Defence, Commander-in-Chief" would appear.
But the amendments which have just been passed substitute "Executive Council, the Commander-in-Chief, operating through the Minister." How, then, can the Minister say "Commander-in-Chief" if we have passed very necessary and excellent amendments by which the command-in-chief is vested in the Executive Council and the Executive Council becomes the command-in-chief?
The Minister speaks of the Ministries' Bill, but we have not seen it. It is still in embryo, and I do not think we can refer any defence of this Bill to a Bill which is not yet an Act of Parliament. If the commission is to be issued by the President of the Executive Council and the Minister for Defence, surely that is sufficient for the commission. It is these two civil Ministers that are satisfied with the loyalty and courage of the officer, and the connection of the Minister for Defence with the Commander-in-Chief makes the commission a personal one, and personal from the Commander-in-Chief. As I said earlier, you cannot dissociate in the minds of the men who constitute the Army the term "Commander-in-Chief" from a military officer in fact. The section that we have passed and which Deputy Figgis has referred to does not seem consistent with this title, unless we are to read into Section 5 something which we are assured is not here. If the Executive Council, acting through a Minister, is the body which has the chief command of the Army, then the Executive Council, in the name of the President and the Minister for Defence, should be the authority to issue the commission, and the Act should be left to say that the Minister for Defence is the Minister through whom the Executive Council exercise the chief command. I would press the Minister to agree to the deletion of these three words.
I think the Minister did definitely state at an earlier stage, when I was answering the point the Deputy Johnson made with regard to an earlier amendment to Section 5, that the Commander-in-Chief as a personal appointment would lapse, although it might be revived for some special occasion or emergency, but that it would be an appointment ad hoc. If it lapses, why is it here?
What I said was that the position of Commander-in-Chief as a military appointment will lapse, and that the proposal is that the Minister for Defence will preside over the Executive Council and will hold the titular title of Commander-in-Chief as well as Minister for Defence.
It is not consistent with what we have already done this afternoon. That is all I suggest. Take Amendment 14, which is the first one that comes to my mind, to delete a section and substitute a new section to 235, providing that "the Commander-in-Chief of and all executive and administrative powers in relation to the National forces shall be vested in the Executive Council and exercised through and in the name of the Minister for Defence." There are two distinct persons there—there is one person which is the Executive Council, which is the Commander-in-Chief, and the second person which is the Minister through which the Commander-in-Chief as a body operates. Having done that, we pass a schedule in which, having separated the two, we merge them again.
The Minister for Defence will be the Commander-in-Chief, as stipulated in Amendment 14.
I did not hear the President's soliloquy.
The point made by Deputy Figgis is that Amendment 14 makes the word "Commander-in-Chief" impossible, and the President's point is that the words "Commander-in-Chief" were inserted because of Amendment 14.
That is an antique form of argument which is not very convincing. I think I have heard that phrase before.
Motion made and question put: "That the First Schedule be deleted and the new form inserted."
Agreed.
Motion made and question put: "That the new form stand part of the Bill."
Agreed.
SECOND SCHEDULE.
Form of Oath or Declaration to be taken or made under Section 22 of the Act.
I do solemnly swear (or declare) that I have this day freely and voluntarily enlisted as a soldier in Oglaigh na hEireann; that I will faithfully serve as such for the period of from the day of 19 (unless sooner discharged by proper authority) and under the conditions prescribed in accordance with law; and I will accept such pay, bounty, rations and clothing as may from time to time be prescribed in accordance with law.
And I further solemnly swear (or declare) that I will bear true faith and allegiance to our country and faithfully serve and defend her against all her enemies whomsoever and that I will submit myself to discipline, and obey without question the orders of the officers appointed over me according to law.
Signature.
Sworn (Declared) before me this day of 19 at
Signature of District Justice or Peace Commissioner attesting.
With regard to the Second Schedule I would like to draw the Minister's attention to a rather odd difference between this form of oath, or declaration, and the form of oath, or declaration, to be taken by another body with which we were to have been concerned this afternoon, and that is the Civic Guard. I will read the last words of their declaration, or oath, for. I think they make a suitable addition to the declaration, or oath:—"I will to the best of my knowledge discharge all my duties thereof faithfully according to law, and that I do not now belong, and I will not, while I hold the said office, join, belong or subscribe to any political society whatsoever, or to any secret society whatsoever:" That is very necessary in the Civic Guard, and I think it would do no harm in the Army. Would the Minister be prepared to add these words to the Army declaration so as to bring it into conformity with the Civic Guard declaration?
I do not think that it would be necessary to do so.
Motion made and question put: "That the Second Schedule stand part of the Bill."
Agreed.
The Third, Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, Seventh and Eighth Schedules put and agreed to.
THE PREAMBLE.
WHEREAS it is provided by Article 46 of the Constitution that the Oireachtas has the exclusive right to regulate the raising and maintaining of such armed forces as are therein referred to, and that every such armed force shall be subject to the control of the Oireachtas.
AND WHEREAS it is adjudged necessary by the Oireachtas that a body of armed forces should be raised for the defence of Saorstát Eireann.
AND WHEREAS it is provided by Article 70 of the Constitution that no one shall be tried save in due course by law and extraordinary Courts shall not be established, save only such military tribunals as may be authorised by law for dealing with military offenders against military law.
AND WHEREAS it is provided by Article 71 of the Constitution that a member of the armed forces of Saorstát Eireann not on active service shall not be tried by any courtmartial or other military tribunal for an offence cognisable by the Civil Courts, unless such offences shall have been brought expressly within the jurisdiction of courtmartial or other military tribunal by any code of laws or regulations for the enforcement of military discipline which might be thereafter approved by the Oireachtas.
AND WHEREAS it is necessary to provide a code of laws or regulations for the enforcement of military discipline in the armed forces of Saorstát Eireann to be raised under this Act.
I move Amendment 19: "In the Preamble to delete the second recital, page 7, lines 14, 15 and 16." The amendment is introduced because of certain criticisms of points of view raised by Deputy FitzGibbon, and possibly some others, when the Bill was last before the Dáil.
As the Deputy has said, the amendment embodies verbatim the promise the Minister made when he was moving the Bill.
Amendment agreed to.
I move Amendment 20: "In the fourth recital, page 7, line 26, to delete the word `offences' and substitute the word `offence'; to delete the word `courtmartial,' line 27, and to substitute the words `courts martial.' " That is merely the correction of a clerical error.
Amendment agreed to.
I move Amendment 21: "In the fifth recital to delete lines 30, 31 and 32 on page 7 and substitute the following recital:—`And whereas it is a matter of urgent necessity to provide a code of laws and regulations for the enforcement of military discipline in the existing armed forces of Saorstát Eireann and such other armed forces as may be raised under this Act."
Amendment agreed to.
Motion made and question put: "That the Preamble, as amended, be the Preamble to the Bill."
Agreed.
THE TITLE.
An Act to provide for the defence of Saorstát Eireann and other matters incidental thereto.
I move Amendment 22: "To delete the Title of the Bill and to substitute therefor the following Title:—AN ACT to make temporary provisions in relation to the defence of Saorstát Eireann and other matters incidental thereto."
Agreed.
