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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 31 Jul 1923

Vol. 4 No. 21

DEFENCE FORCES (TEMPORARY PROVISIONS) BILL, 1923. - FOURTH STAGE.

I propose that the Bill be received for final consideration.

I move an amendment:— To insert after Section 206 a new section as follows:

"Any regulation of the Minister under this Act which involves a charge on public funds shall be made with the concurrence of the Minister for Finance."

That is merely a formal amendment, intended to cover an oversight in the drafting of the Bill. In two or three places in the Bill there are provisions which authorise the Minister to do certain acts, and which involve a charge on public funds. Obviously, no Minister can do such acts without the concurrence of the Minister for Finance.

Amendment agreed to.

In Section 186, Sub-section 3, I think that some word must have been left out in the drafting, or left over for further consideration, because there is a blank in the printed section—"Produces to a District Justice or to a Peace Commissioner or Constable a route or requisition which he is not authorised to produce, or a document falsely purporting to be a route or requisition...." Then there is a blank as if some word like order or proclamation had been left over for consideration. I do not know whether that is so or not.

The words should be "of emergency." They will be found in Section 186 Sub-section 1.

The words "of emergency" must be inserted in the blank.

We will take that in the next stage. It is only a verbal amendment.

Question put:—"That the Bill be received for final consideration."
Agreed.

I desire to move:—"That the Bill do now pass."

I move that the words "of emergency" be inserted in the blank in Section 183 Sub-section 3, line 38.

Amendment put and agreed to.

Before this Bill passes I want to repeat my objection to the passing of the Bill even for a period of twelve months, a Bill which embodies so long and detailed a scheme of organisation for the Army and the establishment of relations between the officers and men, Headquarters and the men, which I think whatever the intention, whatever the spirit may be in which they will be carried out, leave possibilities of abuse and the fixing of distinctions of caste. I have expressed my general objections to the Bill, and I do not want to go into details to any extent, but I want before it passes to say again that the passing of a Bill of this magnitude and this tremendous importance, in these circumstances, even for a period of twelve months, is most unsatisfactory and most objectionable. I want to express the hope that the scheme of organisation, the scheme of administration, the various grades of commissioned rank, from General downwards will not be taken as establishing any vested interests for those officers of higher rank, in case the future Dáil decides upon a different scheme of organisation. We have in this scheme, Generals, Lieutenant-Generals, Major-Generals, Colonels, Commandants, Lieutenants and Second Lieutenants. I am informed that in the American Army, for instance, the highest rank is Major-General. I am not sure whether the title of General is in common use even in the British Army. I do not think that it has been abolished, but the Army Council some years ago was constituted of men of whom the highest grade was Major-General. We are beginning with Generals and Lieutenant-Generals above the rank of Major-General, which may mean nothing except title. However, it may mean vested interests in higher scales of pay, pensions and the like. I want just to put in this word of caution, that the next Dáil, in considering a future and permanent scheme of Defence forces, will not be bound by any regulation made in this Act which establishes this long tale of grades of commissioned officers, and that they will not recognise that they are bound in any way to conserve interests which may have been established by the establishment of this scale.

I thought that we made it clear during the other discussions on this Bill that all commissions held at the present time are temporary commissions, and that all commissions that would be held under the present Act would be temporary commissions also, that nothing like a permanent commission would be granted, or could be granted, until after the passing of the subsequent Defence Forces Bill which is contemplated. The present holders of either high or low ranks in the Army do not hold them as vested interests of any kind. They hold their present positions because in a period of national crisis, whether it was four years ago, or whether it was this year, they stood up to the duty that they saw was theirs. They undertook responsibility for the carrying out of certain work, work of responsibility and work of danger, when it was clear to them that the safety of their country demanded that they should undertake it. They have no vested interests, except the type of interest that becomes vested in men who face responsibilities for their country, the type of vested interests that is common to men whose country turns to them and appreciates the fact that they have stood by it in danger and in difficulty. They quite realise that their vested interests in any position that they hold are in the affections or regard of their people, and that they will cease when they fail to stand up to the responsibilities that come to them day by day, and which will change perhaps with the change of days, and when they in any other way fail to secure that regard in which they are held by their people.

Because you have to-day men who are styled with military ranks that may be high compared with the size of other armies and the size of other countries, that does not mean that the country is suffering from anybody who claims to have a vested interest in anything. It simply means that the country has happily had a very large number of men who have stood by their duties and stood by their responsibilities in this period of grave danger to the country. In the matter of the possible or probable development of caste in the army or in the country, all I can say is that I do not understand what possible dangers or what possible developments are seen or foretold by the Deputies who have raised that particular question.

Question : "That the Bill, as amended, do now pass," put and agreed to.
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