What does the President propose to do?
DAIL IN COMMITTEE. - PUBLIC SAFETY (No. 2) BILL, 1923.
The Dáil resumed at 9.30.
I wish to move the Second Reading of this Bill, The Public Safety (No. 2) Bill, 1923. I gave notice already this evening that it would be necessary to suspend the Standing Orders, and I want to move now the suspension of the Standing Orders and take the Bill through all its stages.
There is a point that I wish to raise. I may say I am not placing any obstacle in the way of this Bill. I recognise the question of urgency, and that the Bill that was passed here yesterday must be given effect to; it was the intention it should. However I am not in entire agreement. The only matter that I am raising is a matter of importance for the future, merely a question of procedure. Whatever we decide here will be taken as a precedent for the future. Under Article 47, as I read and construe that article, I believe that a Resolution of this Dáil would be sufficient to meet the case. It would certainly be a much less cumbersome procedure than taking a Bill already passed in this Dáil and making it a schedule to some new Bill that is taken a day afterwards.
Would not the point that is being made by Deputy Figgis arise after the motion for Second Reading is being taken rather than now on a motion for the suspension of the Standing Orders?
You think it would arise better on the Second Reading?
I think so.
I will then leave it to the Second Reading.
Motion to suspend the Standing Orders put and agreed.
I move the Second Reading of the Bill. We endeavoured to get the particulars that were asked for by Deputy Figgis, but it appears that the reports in connection with the case are being transcribed, and it would take maybe a half an hour or three quarters of an hour until we are in a position to say exactly whether it will be possible to get them within an hour or afterwards. I have asked the Attorney-General to attend this evening. If it was the wish of the Dáil to hear a short explanation from him he will give them that explanation, although we have not had up to this any outsider, that is, a person who is not elected a member of this Dáil, addressing it. But if it were desired, in view of the special circumstances of the case, that a statement, dealing with the proceedings that took place in the court to-day, should be made by him I would ask the Attorney-General to address the Dáil. I think that is scarcely necessary. The decisions are there. The reasons why these two decisions were given or the particular reason which actuated the decision that was given, would scarcely affect the case, because we are presented with a certain fact, the fact being that an Act that was passed through both Houses of the Oireachtas, that has received the Royal Assent is held for seven days by reason of Article 47 of the Constitution. Had that been anticipated I think there is not the faintest doubt whatever but that both Houses of the Oireachtas would have passed the necessary resolution. As to the suggestion that was made by Deputy Figgis, earlier in the evening, regarding this Article, that is that it might be possible for us now to pass this resolution, though I subscribe to that as a solution of the difficulty, I am not satisfied that that solution would be accepted and we might be faced with a network of difficulties and complexities just as we had contemplated adjourning and dissolving. On that account it is unwise that we should take any step which is not a sort of cast-iron security that the measure that we have considered here for a very considerable time, and that has been a subject of very serious consideration in the Seanad should run the risk of being held up for any period by reason of the re-actions which the holding up of the Bill might bring about. In moving the Second Reading it is only necessary to state that it was the intention of this Dáil and the intention of the Seanad that this Act should become operative immediately on its passage through both Houses and on the Governor-General appending his signature to it. I, therefore, formally move the Second Reading.
Mr. O'HIGGINS
I beg to second.
Question: "That the Bill be read a Second Time," put.
I am not raising any objection or difficulty to this. I am entirely in agreement with the President so far as the necessity for giving effect to what was clearly the intention of the Oireachtas, is concerned. My point may seem a little unnecessary and pedantic, but I do think it is right that at this early stage of acting on the Constitution it is very desirable that we should proceed with care in order that the matters we now do might not form unhappy precedents for the future. I cannot but think it is not altogether the best of possible precedents to pass an Act, say, on Wednesday of one week, and because a certain eventuality occurs that that Act, on the Thursday of the same week, should be made a Schedule to another Act. Article 47 of the Constitution is, I think, quite clear. Article 47 does say that these provisions, the provisions by which two-fifths of either House may claim a referendum, but must claim it within seven days, and that therefore a Bill is not presumed to be of full effect in law and to have actual currency until those seven days have expired, shall not apply or be of effect in the case of Bills. The Constitution reads: "This provision shall not apply to money Bills or to such Bills as may be claimed to be needed for the preservation of the public peace, health or safety." I have a very clear and actual memory of the scene in which these words were drafted. It does not say that such a resolution making these provisions null and void in respect of Bills of this sort must be passed with the Bill and accompanying the Bill; it merely says that such a resolution must be passed by both Houses. It might be passed the day after. I believe the construction of Article 47 is that it may be passed any time within the seven days, and I think it would be a more desirable procedure to adopt. I know the arguments that will be raised. No doubt, this argument would be put forward that a resolution of this kind passed the following day was ex post facto. It is still within Article 47 but it is neither more nor less ex post facto than the procedure to be now adopted. If the argument that the procedure by resolution—the simple direct procedure—is not going to be accepted by the Courts—and I take that by anticipation to be the argument for the procedure now being defined— then the same would apply towards making a No. 2 Bill with No. 1 Bill as a schedule. I am perfectly well aware other arguments could be put forward, and I imagine they will be in due course of time, but I prefer they would not be interlarded with my arguments at the present time.
They would spoil your arguments.
I suggest Article 47 is perfectly clear. A certain type of Bill shall not be held up for seven days. That type of Bill is the kind of Bill that is necessary for the preservation of public safety, peace and good order. If the Dáil at any time decides that a certain Bill which is passed five minutes or 24 hours before is of that kind, then, if it passes a resolution to that effect, then this provision, if now proved to be an impediment, shall not apply. I urge that on the President for a very practical reason. To-day it was necessary to suspend Standing Orders. If a resolution of this kind could have been adopted I take it Standing Orders need not have been suspended, and it is better not to suspend them if it can be avoided. Sometime in the future the same emergency might arise that has now arisen, and it might not be possible to suspend Standing Orders. It might be possible to proceed by way of resolution. If that is sufficient now it will be sufficient then, and I do urge a resolution should be passed and presented to the Court, and that it would effect the purpose in exactly the same way and with exactly the same authority, being within the meaning of Article 47, as making a No. 2 Bill of what has already been a No. 1 Bill.
I am loath to occupy time as time is precious, but Deputy Figgis is really spinning cobwebs for his own delight. Nothing can be clearer than Article 47, "A Bill passed, or deemed to have been passed, may be suspended" and so on —"These provisions shall not apply to such Bills as shall be declared by both Houses to be necessary for the immediate preservation of the public peace, health or safety" His argument, therefore, that what was held against the validity of the Public Safety Act, Number 1, would apply equally to this, falls to the ground be cause this second Bill is accompanied by the necessary declaration. That is the essential difference. This Bill is accompanied by the declaration or will be accompanied by the declaration of both Houses that it is necessary for the immediate preservation of the public peace. The contention of Deputy Figgis, that it will suffice, after the Bill has been passed, to make an ex post facto declaration that it is of that nature, merely shows that Deputy Figgis is not acquainted with the ways of the Law Courts. The Judge might very well, without going to any great length to discover or invent difficulties, hold that the meaning of these words is that the declaration is to accompany, and be an integral part of the legislation. What the President proposes to do puts it out of the power of any logic chopping gentleman, on or off the Bench, to utilise that argument so that whether this is novel procedure or not is not a fatal objection, because the situation is absolutely novel. I do not like to comment upon it further than that, but it is an effort of the old regime to interfere with the coming into operation of the new regime. I will not say anything more than merely to put it in very mild terms. What we are doing to-night may be unique in the history of legislation, but it is the proper way to meet a difficulty which is in itself unique in its creation.
It is intended also to pass the necessary resolution with regard to this as soon as this Bill passes, if God spares us to pass it.
Question put, and agreed to.
In accordance with the resolution suspending Standing Orders the Dáil will now go into Committee.