I wish to say a few words on the Committee Stage of this Bill. First of all, there was a resolution in the Dáil on the 18th of September, 1922, introduced by Deputy Gavan Duffy, stating that it was the opinion of the Dáil that Ireland should join the League of Nations, and that application for admission to the League shall be made forthwith. There was an amendment by the Minister for External Affairs: "That it is the opinion of this Dáil that application for admission to the League of Nations should be made as and when the Government finds it advantageous," and that was passed. Subsequently discussion took place in the Seanad, and the Bill was introduced into the Seanad this week. It has been passed by them, and it is now before the Dáil. It really carries into effect the purpose of the resolution passed in the Dáil in September. I do not think it is necessary to say anything further about it.
GARDA SIOCHANA (TEMPORARY PROVISIONS) BILL, 1923. - LEAGUE OF NATIONS (GUARANTEE) BILL, 1923—COMMITTEE STAGE.
Could one have a little further information, which I was rather expecting the President would take this opportunity of providing, to deal with what is meant by the words in this section. "It shall be lawful"—I am reading the sentence without its parenthesis in order to get the continuity of the sense—"for the Executive Council to give to the League such guarantees as shall be thought proper by the Executive Council and be acceptable to the League, of the sincere intention of Saorstát Eireann to observe its international obligations." I am in favour of the general principle of Ireland joining the League of Nations. and have always been, but there are certain procedures of the League of Nations that have been a little disquieting. If certain obligations were required of the Saorstát, which were to be left to the Executive Council of the day, and if they should decide that Ireland shall be called upon to fulfil her international obligations by furnishing, say, an army in a certain place far removed from Ireland, and in matters that do not in the least degree affect Ireland, surely in a matter of that kind the Oireachtas as a whole should have a voice in this decision, and should have a voice in any matters that might lead to so unfortunate a matter—that the matter should not be left entirely to the Executive Council. I was, therefore, hoping to have the time to draft some amendment, but not having the time, I put forward a suggestion now to the President, both as guarding the Dáil and as guarding the Executive Council, that if these guarantees be asked for, the Executive Council shall first lay them on the Table of the Dáil, and that they should normally become of effect unless exception were taken to them. At the present moment there is nothing in the objection that I make. There is no danger that I imagine might be likely to arise, but it could arise in the future, and I think it desirable for that to be inserted now in order that the Executive Council should have the Legislature behind it in giving such guarantees as may be put upon it by the League of Nations. If this were passed as it stands, if the Executive Council were to be called upon by the League of Nations to give certain guarantees which it did not feel it was justified in giving without consultation with the Parliament, in that case I am not sure whether this Act, having been recited before the League, would not empower the League to request the Executive Council to take these decisions in too great a haste, without it being possible that the Parliament could be consulted. I would think that that would be wise, and I hope the President would see the justice of the points I am making, that some safeguard of that kind should be required; that the matter should not be left entirely between the Executive Council and the League, but that behind the Executive Council Parliament should always appear.
I take it that it will be conceded that in a matter of this kind we are not claiming more than any other nation which has joined the League of Nations, and it is open to question whether, if any meetings of this kind of bodies which have duly accredited representatives on behalf of certain nations, whether in every case in which matters come up for consideration and that decisions have to be taken, it is at all likely that there is a possibility of coming to an agreement if every such question and decision must be submitted to the representative Parliaments by the representatives of these Parliaments in such a body as the League of Nations. Let us assume, for a moment, that the matter to be decided is the limitation of armaments, and that that limitation should form the basis of some ratio to population and that the assembled delegates there say, "This is a matter upon which we must receive instructions from our respective Governments before we come to any agreement," what likelihood is there of any agreement on a matter of that kind? What usually happens, as I take it, is that a body like this, composed of the representatives of various countries, considers certain proposals, discusses them, amends them, perhaps, from their original introduction, and adopts them. They are then submitted, I assume, for ratification to the various countries, and they are ratified. Some simplification takes place there, but why not, if matters which are the subject of consideration by bodies like the League of Nations, go further than submit them to Parliament, and submit them to a referendum? Why not carry that system out in regard to every item of legislation which comes before us? We are not claiming that the consideration of every matter which is the subject of legislation in Parliament could not be more democratically pronounced upon if it were submitted to the decision of the people, but we know that society in regulating its life and work, adopts simpler methods of procedure, even though it is not a cast-iron approval of the most extended possible conception of the democratic idea, although a reactionary democratic might say it is not really the democratically expressed will of the people unless it has been subscribed to by them. I would say, from my experience of public matters, that it would be open to any section of the community to claim that every matter under the consideration of Parliament should be submitted to the consideration of the people. You see at once how difficult and complicated it would be to get decisions upon cases, and how extremely expensive it would be. We know that while each country in considering a question of that kind will have its own paramount interests before it, and will not be in a position to appraise the value of representations made by other countries, there would be no possibility of agreement. If each country considered only its own needs and requirements there is a possibility that each would instruct its representatives that they could not go beyond a certain distance. There would be no finality in these matters. I am satisfied, from the explanation given by the Minister for External Affairs in the Seanad in regard to this matter, that there are sufficient safeguards to protect the respective countries who are in the League of Nations by the codes regulating the business of the League in that respect. The obligations incurred in joining are set forth in the Covenant, especially Articles VIII-XVII. They are usually summarised in the following sub-heads:—
(1) Limitation of armaments.
(2) A mutual guarantee of territory and independence.
(3) Admission that any circumstance which threatens international peace is an international interest.
(4) An agreement not to go to war.
(5) Acceptance of machinery for securing a peaceful settlement, with provision for publicity.
(6) The sanctions to be employed to punish a breach of the agreement in (4).
(7) Similar provisions for settling disputes where States not members of the League are concerned.
I do not press my point. I put what I thought was reasonable, and I certainly did not expect the deluge which has descended upon me. I would like to say that I had not spoken about a referendum of the people at all. I never touched on it or imagined it. I was not speaking of the decisions taken in Council together. That never entered my imagination. I was dealing with something that was quite clear and explicit, and that is to be done in this phrase, "Such guarantees as shall be thought proper as between the Executive Council and the League of Nations." The President has said that in Council it might be thought desirable to adopt disarmament. Everybody would be delighted if that was so, but I imagine the Executive Council would need no extraordinary consultation to bring about that. But supposing it brought about the reverse. Supposing it required an increase of armaments, and that is not at all an unlikely proposition in the state of Europe at the present time, how would the matter stand?
Motion made and question put: "That Section 1 stand part of the Bill."
Agreed.