Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 8 Aug 1923

Vol. 4 No. 25

DAIL IN COMMITTEE. - SPECIAL RESOLUTION.

The PRESIDENT

The motion which appears on the Paper in the name of the Minister for Agriculture should have been tabled in my name. The Minister has drawn my attention to it. The motion is as follows:—

Resolved that this House hereby declares that the Bill passed by this House and entitled "An Act to amend the law relating to the occupation and ownership of land and for other purposes relating thereto" and whereof the short title is "The Land Bill, 1923," is necessary for the immediate preservation of the public peace.

I would like to say, Sir, that during the last two or three years a good deal of dislocation of the ordinary administration has been attributable to the land agitation. Questions involving land matters that have been troublesome for the last 12 or 18 months have been intensified to an extraordinary extent by the fact that very great unrest has been evidenced in a great many parts of the country by reason of so many grievances existing, which it is hoped and believed this Land Bill will rectify. Although it can scarcely be said to be an agreed measure, this is a Bill on which the maximum amount of agreement has been brought to bear by all the parties to it. It may be that some people may have thought they could have got better terms and that other people thought they could have got a better price. But I think the general consensus of opinion in the Oireachtas and in the country is that the measure is one that will go far towards making for much more peaceful conditions and much more ordered conditions and for greater security and greater stability than perhaps any other measure we have had under consideration here. We consider that the public peace is ensured by the passing of this Bill. There is a danger, through the operation of Article 47 of the Constitution, that it might be claimed that the Bill could not pass for seven days. I am myself strongly of opinion, and that opinion is reinforced by every member of the Ministry, that the immediate passing into law of this measure is a matter of urgent necessity for the maintenance of peace. The Dáil is, I think, aware that we have had to employ very large numbers of troops in the execution of decrees. Certain writs have been issued for the recovery of rents, which in themselves constitute an invasion of the terms of this instrument that has been considered so exhaustively by the Dáil, and which has also been passed by the Seanad. Under the law as it stands we are bound to execute decrees which have been issued for rent, and I understand that writs are being issued at present. The Minister for Agriculture has just handed me a telegram which he has had from one part of the country dealing with this very matter. He only received it a moment ago. These things do not make for public peace, and the Government is always in the position of being attacked by both sides—on one side for its weakness and on the other side for its strength. We believe that the maintenance of public peace in this country at the moment will make more for stability than any amount of strength or weakness that can be shown. We believe it ought not to be necessary to employ in the ordinary administration of the business of the country unusual numbers of troops. We should get away from that and get back to normal conditions. There should be respect for decisions in the Courts of Justice properly constituted and administering the law according to justice. We do not anticipate any grave troubles arising out of the land question once this aspect of it has been settled. There will be naturally questions of detail, which will give rise to strong feelings and strong expressions of opinion, and perhaps a certain dislocation of public services now and then. But at least one very marked advance has been made by this measure. I and every member of the Ministry attribute its greatest success to the measure of accommodation which was afforded by all sections of the community in coming to agreement upon a measure of this sort. For that purpose we consider that it is necessary, in the interests of the immediate preservation of the public peace, that this resolution should be passed, which will enable us to record this Act on our Statute Book and make it the law of the land. Accordingly I move the resolution which I have just read.

Mr. HOGAN

I second the motion.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

I agree with the President in most of what he has said in bringing this resolution before the Dáil. I am bound to confess, however, that I have had a little difficulty in discovering exactly what relation much of it had to the resolution before the Dáil. I referred to this matter of Article 47 on the Army Bill. This is the third resolution of this kind which we have had brought before us. I think it is a matter of agreement that the particular article of the Constitution that it is intended to render nugatory was intended to be of effect with the greater part of legislation, and should only be set aside for some special matter of very peculiar urgency. The provisions of Article 47 state that the stay of one week shall not apply to Money Bills or such Bills as shall be declared by both Houses to be necessary for the immediate preservation of the public peace, health or safety. These words were drafted after consultation with certain people, and are an exact replica of the procedure adopted in Switzerland, where similar provisions have effect. For instance, on one occasion it happened that an epidemic occurred there and legislation had to be passed. It was not possible to wait a week for legislation to come into effect, and it was given effect by some such provision as this. But where is the necessity or the urgency for this particular Bill? I have supported the Bill. I think it is a good Bill and a just Bill. It has been before the Dáil for some weeks, and before the Seanad for a good length of time. Several weeks have been occupied with its passage. What evil would follow if one more week were to elapse before this Bill became of legal effect?

I do not see where the urgency of the matter is. The Bill is a good one and would normally become law. There is no intention I imagine, either from the Dáil or the Seanad to get some resolution under Article 47 in order that a referendum might be put into operation. That has not been suggested. If this resolution were not passed the Bill would, at the end of the week, become good law, and in the intervening period of time not one single discomfort would have arisen because it had been held up by an article of the Constitution. I am perfectly certain it is not the intention in the Constitution that the latter part of that article should be applied to a Bill of this kind, and I do think that it is not a fair use of the Constitution to ask the Dáil to pass a resolution of this kind. Let the Bill take its ordinary course. I said before that I think a resolution of this kind ought to be used very sparingly indeed, and only be used when the words of the Constitution strictly can be enforced, and when the particular Bill in respect of which the resolution was asked is quite clearly necessary, not only for the preservation of peace, public safety and good health, but for the immediate preservation of these desirable things. I do not think that it can be argued that the Land Bill is necessary in that immediate sense. After another week would have passed the position would be exactly the same as to-day, and no evil would have happened. If there are special reasons why it is necessary this Bill should become of effect to-morrow, instead of to-morrow week—and there may be reasons—those reasons have not been given by the President.

Mr. JOHNSON

When this motion was handed round I thought, just as Deputy Figgis thought, that it was a far-stretching of the provisions of the constitution—Article 47—and I began to wonder what can be the intention. I wondered whether the Minister for Agriculture had been frightened by that section of the Farmers' Union led by Senator Sir John Keane, and that he feared there might be a rally of one-twentieth of the voters now on the register, or on the register within seven days, who will ask for the general hold-up of this measure for 90 days so that a referendum might be taken. I knew that it was not likely that two-fifths of the members of the Dáil or a majority of the Seanad would present a petition asking for the holding-up, and I could only think of the possibility of this fiery cross led by Senator Sir John Keane and the other members of the Farmers' Union against the Bill. But in going through the Bill for the purpose of finding out what the amendments from the Seanad meant, I came across Section 19, and I noticed what the President has pointed out, or hinted at, that proceedings may have been taken but may not be continued or enforced after the passing of this Bill. By passing the resolution we may save 20 or 30 or 40 farmers who owe arrears, and against whom judgments had been given from having these judgments enforced. Consequently, I am prepared to agree for the immediate preservation of the public peace in those holdings that it is well that this resolution should be passed.

Mr. WILSON

I agree with Deputy Figgis that it was never intended, when the Constitution was being initiated, that a Land Bill should be a matter of public safety. But Deputy Figgis lives in the city and he does not know the state of the country. He does not know that at the present time writs are being executed, and that military and police are seizing the cattle of the farmers. I tell him now that unless this resolution is passed you are going to have an immediate breach of the peace in several counties. While I agree with a good deal of what has been said, that only shows you that the people in the city who profess to understand the country are only talking nonsense here, because they do not understand the point at all. The President is doing the right thing. There are a lot of landlords trying to get the money before this Bill becomes law, and I agree that it is doing the right thing to put the Bill into operation at once in order to stop these lawyers and bailiffs and other people. This only shows what the city people in this Dáil know of the realities of the situation. I am pleased to see that the President is alive to the responsibilities of his position, and that he does recognise that he represents the country and not a town.

PADRAIC O'MAILLE

Ba mhaith liom cuidiú leis an rún seo. Is doigh liom go mba mhaith an rud an Bill a chur i bh-feidhm gán a thuilleadh moille.

I wish to support the motion brought forward by the President. I think it would be a great mistake to wait one day in giving the tenants of Ireland the benefits of this measure. The Government had to take strong action some time ago against parties who had seized lands and unfortunately some of these people are at present in prison. The sooner these people are released the better for the peace of the country, because they will be able to avail of the benefits of this measure. Those people now have the law on their side and there is no necessity for them to seize what the law will give them. It is a very important thing that the tenants of Ireland should get the benefits of this measure with the least possible delay.

Mr. GOREY

I do not understand the real meaning of the President's motion or the reasons that inspired it. The telegram that has been handed to the Minister for Agriculture with reference to seizures made yesterday in Wexford on the Alcock Estate was handed to him after it reached us. I do not know what the real meaning of this resolution is, but I accept it as a means of preserving the public peace. The wonder is how the people of the country have preserved the peace so far. The wonder is that these people in Wexford and elsewhere who have been looking for this trouble have not met the trouble they wanted. I am very sorry that they did not meet the trouble they were looking for. With regard to the remarks of Deputy Johnson in reference to the Farmers Union and Senator Sir John Keane. Senator Sir John Keane is as much responsible for the Farmers' Union as Jim Larkin is.

Mr. DAVIN

As you are.

Mr. GOREY

When I speak for the Farmers' Union or the Unpurchased Tenants you may accept what I say with some degree of responsibility. When Senator Sir John Keane speaks he speaks as Sir John Keane. He is entitled, of course, to express his opinion as a member of the Farmers' Union, but he is speaking in the capacity of Senator Sir John Keane, and no-one else. He is less responsible for the Farmers' Union than Jim Larkin is for Deputy Johnson's policy, or for those who worked with hatpins outside the Mansion House.

Mr. DAVIN

A pity you were not there.

Mr. GOREY

I would love to see it. These cheap sneers come, I think, very badly from Deputy Johnson. He knows very well that Senator Sir John Keane does not speak for the Unpurchased Tenants. He is only a member of the Farmers' Union, and it is very doubtful, after his recent conduct, if he will even remain a member. I will not speak any further about our private affairs as Senator Sir John Keane and ourselves will be able to settle these matters. I believe this resolution may help to keep the public peace. I do not think the resolution is of any great necessity, but if the Government thinks so, we have no objection to the Bill being put through. There may be some other reason besides the public peace behind it.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

I only want to say that the reasons Deputy Wilson has given are convincing so far as I am personally concerned. I was not unaware of them, but I do think, that in placing a resolution of this kind before the Dáil, the real reason should have been put before us.

The PRESIDENT

I always credited Deputy Figgis with more than the usual amount of common sense. I am rather glad the members of the Farmers' Party were in a position to give him some enlightenment on this Bill. I thought it was common knowledge that there is considerable disturbance, annoyance, and a feeling of uncertainty throughout the country, by reason of these writs for arrears of rent. If Deputy Figgis did not hear of that, I regret it, as he is a very far-seeing man, but perhaps it was beneath his notice. These are things that disturb us very much. We have got to carry out the law fairly as between all the parties.

A DEPUTY

Read the telegram.

The PRESIDENT

I have not got it. The telegram was not sent to me. It was one of those things that go to show that my judgment is of a rather good quality, and, consequently, it is not uninteresting to me. I thank the members of the Dáil for the way the resolution was received. It was received in good faith. The Dáil realises with us the vital need of disposing of the uncertainty that always surrounds a measure of this sort until the fateful day when it becomes law. We believe it is absolutely essential that it should become law immediately, and for that purpose we put down the resolution. It is not evading the principles or the Articles of the Constitution, but it implements them. It is not outside the Constitution; it is complying with it. We would certainly fail in our duty if we allowed that feeling of uncertainty and unrest, with possible disturbances, to arise in the coming week, in the event of certain people taking advantage of the fact that this Bill was not law for seven days. It would be impossible for us, or anyone else, to repair the damage, once it had been done.

Motion put and agreed to.