Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 10 Oct 1923

Vol. 5 No. 5

TUARASGABHAIL I DTAOBH CUR AMACH RITEACH I GCOIR BAILE ATHA CLIATH THEAS. - THE COURTS OF JUSTICE BILL (MOTION BY DEPUTY DARRELL FIGGIS).

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

I beg to move:—"That the Order committing `The Courts of Justice Bill' to Committee of the whole Dáil be discharged, and that the Bill be committed to a Special Committee, consisting of twelve Deputies, to be nominated by the Committee of Selection; that the Special Committee so appointed be charged specially to consider Part II of the Bill, dealing with the proposed institution of Circuit Courts; that the Committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records; that the quorum be eight, and that it report to the Dáil not later than the 19th of this month of October."

In moving this resolution, I wish to say——

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

I must rule this motion out of order, because according to Standing Order 38, "a motion to rescind or amend a Resolution can only be made on notice, that shall specify the Resolution to be rescinded or amended, and furnish the terms of the Motion to be made; but no motion shall be allowed to appear on the Order Paper to rescind any Resolution of the Dáil within six months of the date of its adoption, except with the written assent of not less than 25 members of the Dáil."

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

On that point of order I had the opportunity of discussing this matter early in the day with the Ceann Comhairle himself, and I would draw your attention to the fact that on two occasions Motions of this kind have been accepted by the Ceann Comhairle.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

(at this stage) resumed the Chair.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

I was relating to Leas-Cheann Comhairle the point I have already mentioned to you that the word "Resolution" in the Standing Order there, not merely by interpretation, but by previous practice, means some legislative Resolution, and not a Resolution applying to the business of this House. I was about to draw his attention to the fact that on two earlier occasions Resolutions of this kind were before the House, one in the name of Mr. Gavan Duffy, who was then a member of the Dáil, and the other in the name of Deputy Seán Milroy, one of which was defeated and the other accepted, but they were both allowed and this rule was not used against them.

It could quite clearly be interpreted that that rule would apply to a resolution of this kind, not a resolution touching legislation, but a resolution definitely affecting the business of the Dáil. The point I am putting to you now is a point of ordinary fairness, because when my resolution was handed in ten days ago there would then have been an opportunity for me to have got the requisite number of signatures, or to have attempted to have got the requisite number of signatures, but when you drew my attention to this possible interpretation of this Standing Order in spite of the previous practice of the Dáil, it was then already after half past one to-day, and very little opportunity was given me to comply with the Standing Order, as you yourself very fairly and courteously acknowledged. I am, therefore, submitting, if this is to be the interpretation to be given to the Standing Order, that the interpretation should be given after to-day and not on this occasion, when obviously I could have no opportunity to have complied with the Order, inasmuch as my motion was handed in ten days ago and accepted by you, and put on the Orders of the Day, without drawing my attention to the fact that Article 38 would be likely to be interpreted now and in the future in a sense different from the interpretation placed upon it in the past.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

I do not think that we can be absolutely held to our previous practice in all matters, because obviously we were learning a great many things, and our practices and our decisions when we look back upon them enable us to see that possibly we may have made mistakes. It appears to me that in the case of Deputy Gavan Duffy, I allowed him to move a motion such as Deputy Figgis desires to move now. In the case of Deputy Milroy, Deputy Milroy was the promoter of the Bill in question, and I think a certain amount of latitude should be allowed to the promoters of a Bill in endeavouring to persuade the Dáil to adopt a procedure different from the procedure which had already been agreed upon. In this case, Deputy Figgis desires to alter the procedure which the promoters of the Bill desire to follow. It seems to me that unless there is a reasonable prospect of his succeeding the time of the Dáil should hardly be occupied with the discussion of such a motion. It was with that in view that Standing Order 38 was originally framed, so that a motion to rescind a decision already come to would have to have the support of 25 Deputies, indicating that it had fair support in the Dáil.

In this particular case I am prepared to agree to a decision of the Dáil in the matter, but I think it is only fair that a certain number of Deputies should support the idea of discussing this motion before we allow it to be discussed. I would be inclined to waive the matter of the twenty-five names in writing, and to say if 25 Deputies supported Deputy Figgis in his desire to have this matter discussed it may be discussed. It is merely a matter of preventing the Dáil being occupied with a debate which could have no useful conclusion. If we adopt as a practice that when we decide to consider a Bill in Committee of the whole Dáil, a Deputy can give notice to rescind that decision, it is obvious that two Deputies could occupy us for a considerable time on practically every Bill. It is in order to avoid such a contingency that I think some stop should be put to such procedure by insisting that the motion should have a certain amount of support before it could be discussed.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

There were just two points, with your permission, sir, that I would like to put before you, and with your further permission I would like to put them in succession, because what you have to say on one will affect the other. My friend, Deputy Wilson, had drawn my attention to the fact that Standing Order 38, to which you referred, does not say that the matter shall not be discussed. Standing Order 38 does specifically say that it shall not appear on the Order Paper.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Peccavi.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

But it has appeared on the Order Paper.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

I am endeavouring to remedy my own defects. Standing Order No. 80 specifies that "a Bill which has passed its second reading shall, by motion made without notice of debate, be referred to the Dáil sitting in Committee, or to a special Committee for detailed consideration." The Bill was referred to the Dáil sitting in Committee. Deputy Figgis I think was present and he did not raise this point then.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

I bow always to your ruling, and in this matter I sympathise with your desire to preserve order, and with the impartiality of your decision. The only point I would like to put to you, and I appeal therefore to your impartiality, is that I have spoken to one or two Deputies since you drew my attention to Standing Order No. 38, and their reply was that they presumed that I would be setting forward the reasons behind this resolution in moving the resolution. Within a matter of a few moments, without the reasons having been stated and made apparent by their statement, I suggest it would be hardly fair to call upon Deputies, without having heard reasons, either privately or in the Dáil, to express their consent before this resolution be proceeded with.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

I will endeavour to meet Deputy Figgis by asking those who are in favour of the motion being proceeded with to stand up. Would that meet his point?

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

It is in the knowledge of one or two members of the Dáil that my attention has been drawn to this within the last half hour, that if this resolution of mine were to be debated, discussed and carried, that the Courts of Justice Bill would not come back again, or could not come back again to the Dáil in Committee, and they desire it to be discussed by the Dáil in whole Committee.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

The report of a special Committee, if appointed, could be considered in Committee of the Dáil.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

There are a number of Deputies who are not in the House at the moment and who, when they had that possibility referred to them, were willing to support this, but without it they would not have been willing. Therefore, I say to put it in that form would not be very fair, in view of the fact that this motion appeared on the Order Papers.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Would those Deputies who are in favour of this motion now coming before us stand up?

Mr. Darrell Figgis stood up.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

The motion has not support.