I move amendment No. 1:—
In Sub-section (1) (j), line 18, page 3, to insert after the word, "Customs" the words "and Excise."
This is merely a draftingamendment.
DAIL IN COMMITTEE. - FIREARMS (TEMPORARY PROVISIONS) BILL, 1924.—THIRD STAGE.
Section 1, put and agreed to.
SECTION 2.
(1) The Minister for Home Affairs may by regulations made under this Act— (a) provide for the issue of firearm licences and prescribe the persons or classes of persons to whom firearm licences may be issued;
(b) authorise specified persons or classes of persons to have in their possession, use, or carry, either generally or for particular purposes or subject to particular conditions, any firearm or ammunition or any particular class of firearm or ammunition without having a firearm licence;
(c) prescribe the persons by whom and the terms and circumstances on and in which firearm licences may be issued, and the form and duration of such licences;
(d) require every firearm in respect of which a firearm licence is issued to be marked with a number or other identification mark, and require such number or mark to be entered in the firearm licence and in the register of firearm licences.
Amendment put and agreed to.
I move amendment No. 2:—
In Sub-section (1) (j), line 21, to insert after the words "articles the" the words "export or."
In Clause (h) both export and import are subject to restrictions, and the object of this amendment is to make (j) consistent with (h).
Amendment put and agreed to
I move amendment 3:—
To add at the end of Sub-section (1) a new paragraph as follows:—
(1) Provide for the forfeiture of any firearm or ammunition in respect of which a breach of a regulation made or continued under this Act is committed.
The object of the amendment is to provide where a person is found in possession of a firearm, without a licence, or found committing any other offence against the Act in respect of a firearm, the firearm may be forfeited.
Amendment put and agreed to.
I move amendment (4): To delete sub-sections (2) and (3). The two clauses proposed to be deleted provided for Regulations made under Section (8) of the old Public Safety Act being continued. The clauses were inserted in the expectation that the Bill would have been passed before the Public Safety Act, but circumstances did not render that possible. It is not, therefore, possible to continue in force regulations made under the old Act.
Amendment put and agreed to.
I move amendment 5: In sub-section (4), line 43, to delete the words "or continued." This is consequential on the last amendment.
Amendment put and agreed to.
Question put: "That Section 2, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
Agreed.
SECTION 3.
(1) So long as this Act remains in force it shall not be lawful for any person to have in his possession, use, or carry a firearm or any ammunition save in so far as such possession, user, or carriage is authorised by regulations made or continued under this Act or is authorised by a firearm or other licence issued under such regulations.
(2) Every person who shall have in his possession, use, or carry a firearm or any ammunition in contravention of this Section shall be guilty of an offence under this Act and be punishable accordingly.
I move amendment 6: In line 53 to delete the words "or continued."
Amendment put and agreed to.
Question put: "That Section 3, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
Agreed.
Section 4 put and agreed to.
SECTION 5.
(1) On and after the passing of this Act it shall not be lawful for any person, without the authority of the Minister for Defence, to import, manufacture, sell, purchase, carry, or have in his possession, any weapon of whatever description, designed for the discharge of any noxious liquid, gas, or other thing, or any ammunition containing or designed or adapted to contain, any such noxious thing.
(2) If any person contravenes the provisions of this Section he shall be guilty of a misdemeanour, and be liable on conviction on indictment to suffer penal servitude for a term not exceeding five years or imprisonment with or without hard labour for a term not exceeding two years.
I beg to move amendment No. 7. To add at the end of the Section a new sub-section as follows:—
(3) Officers of Customs and Excise and officers of the Post Office shall have the like powers in relation to weapons and ammunition mentioned in sub-section (1) of this Section, as such officers respectively have by law in relation to other articles the import of which is prohibited or restricted.
The Section would really have no effect unless these officers were given the power proposed to be given by this amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
Question: "That Section 5, as amended, stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to.
SECTION 6.
Any person who commits an offence under this Act or commits a breach of any regulation made or continued under this Act and in respect of which no punishment is prescribed by any such regulation shall be liable in respect of each such offence or breach—
(a) on summary conviction thereof to be sentenced to suffer imprisonment with or without hard labour for a term not exceeding six months and may in addition be sentenced to pay a fine not exceeding twenty pounds and, in default of payment of such fine within one month after conviction, to suffer imprisonment without hard labour for a further term not exceeding two months to be added to and commence on the expiration of the first mentioned term of imprisonment; or
(b) on being found guilty thereof on indictment to be sentenced to suffer imprisonment with or without hard labour for a term not exceeding two years and may in addition be sentenced to pay a fine not exceeding one hundred pounds, and in default of payment of such fine within one month after sentence, to suffer imprisonment without hard labour for a further term not exceeding six months to be added and commence on the expiration of the first-mentioned term of imprisonment.
I beg to move amendment 8:—
In line 18, to delete the words "or continued."
This also is consequential upon amendment Number 5.
Amendment agreed to.
Motion made:—"That Section 6, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
I want to raise a question regarding the method of inflicting punishment adopted in this Section. I think it requires some justification that this method, adopted before in certain Bills, should be repeated, of imprisonment plus fine, and if the fine is not paid within a certain time there should be further period of imprisonment. I think it is objectionable that this dual method of punishment should be inserted in this Bill, and I would like to hear from the Minister in charge some justification for the dual process of inflicting punishment.
Mr. O'HIGGINS
The purpose aimed at is, of course, to deter people from taking the risks involved by a breach of this particular law. There are some people who have become inured to imprisonment. It has no particular terror for them, possibly, by reason of the fact that they have been through it before and found it congenial, and these people would be deterred, and very seriously deterred, by a money penalty. There is the other case of people who would take the risk of incurring a fine, but would be seriously deterred by the prospect of a period of imprisonment. Now, we aimed at catering for both mentalities.
No, you seem to be catering for the mule—the half-and-half person.
Mr. O'HIGGINS
We more or less aimed at a cumulative effect which would cover both mentalities. This provision was a provision that was in the late Public Safety Act, and it was simply inserted, as it stood, without alteration in this Bill. If the Deputy is inclined to urge this point very strongly I would look into it between this and the Report Stage, but, personally, at the moment, my view is, that having regard to the extreme necessity of bringing the lethal weapons of the country under proper legal control so that the State at any time will know exactly the where and the why of every such weapon, it is not too harsh to insert in a Bill that the people who break this particular law break it at the risk both of a period of imprisonment and fine.
The Minister's justification of this does not carry much weight. It is intended to deter in the one case the person inured to imprisonment, and who would treat it lightly. That person will also consider the extra two months lightly, and will not pay the fine. But there is a second class of person who, the Minister says, will be deterred by a fine. But a fine is not imposed in lieu of imprisonment. It is an alternative which he may accept if he likes in lieu of two months' imprisonment. If the Minister were defending a case of fine or imprisonment I could understand his reasoning, but in the case which is in question his reasoning is not very valid, I think.
It is true, no doubt, that this Section is taken bodily from the Public Safety Act, and is one of the many bad provisions in that Act. But that Act was passed in an emergency, and many things might have been passed by the Dáil in these circumstances which would require justification in the present more settled and more leisurely times. I think it is desirable that we should have provisions of this kind carefully thought over before we get into the way of embodying them in legislation of a punitive character. After all, an extra two months' imprisonment may be cheap to one citizen at the cost of £20, but it may be dear to another citizen. A man with much money and certain antecedents will pay £20 to get off two months, while another man could not find £20 if he sold up all his property, but he is reckoned to pay the penalty in two months' imprisonment. There is a distinct disadvantage to the man without money in a provision of this kind. I suggest that the Minister should think it over carefully, with a view to deleting this alternative before the next Stage of the Bill.
Mr. O'HIGGINS
I undertake to give further consideration to the Section between this and the next Stage. I do not agree with Deputy Johnson that the Section, as it stands, constitutes a distinct disadvantage to the man without money, because it is purely an enabling power, to be used according to the circumstances of each particular case and presumably to the circumstances of each particular offender. I rather think that it enables the Justice to impose, in addition to the sentence of imprisonment on a person whose circumstances he considers warrants it, a fine plus a period of imprisonment. In any case the whole thing is permissive and discretionary and not on any mandatory basis. I will, however, consider the Section between this and the Report Stage.
Perhaps the Minister will also take note of the relative value of money in relation to punishment. Under paragraph (a) "a prisoner may, in addition, be sentenced to pay a fine not exceeding £20" which, if he is a wealthy man, he will do, but, in the default of payment of such a fine within one month after conviction,— that is while he is in gaol—he is to suffer for another period not exceeding two months; that is to say £20 equal two months. Under paragraph (b) he might have, in addition to his sentence, to pay a fine not exceeding £100, or to suffer for a further term not exceeding 6 months; that is, £100 equal 6 months. I suppose the ups and downs of the market for francs might be child's play as compared with this kind of bargain. That anomaly just shows the folly of this kind of provision.
Mr. O'HIGGINS
If the Deputy had ever been in jail he would realise that the last two months are the worst.
Question:—"That Section 6 stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to.
SECTION 7.
(1) Nothing in this Act or in any regulation made or continued under this Act shall apply to any firearm or ammunition belonging or issued to, or in the possession of, a member of the Defence Force of Saorstát Eireann or of a police force in Saorstát Eireann as part of his arms or equipment as such member, or to the possession, user, or carriage of any firearm or ammunition by any such member in the performance of his duty as such.
(2) Nothing in this Act relating to firearms shall apply to an antique firearm which is sold, bought, carried or possessed as a curiosity or ornament.
(3) The provisions of this Act relating to ammunition shall be in addition to and not in derogation of any enactment relating to the keeping and sale of explosives.
I move:—"In sub-section (1), lines 41 and 42, to delete the words "or continued." This is also consequential on number 5.
Amendment put and agreed to.
I move to insert a new sub-section before sub-section (3) as follows:—
(3) "Nothing in this Act relating to firearms shall apply to any firearm which is carried or possessed by a member of a theatrical company for the purpose of a dramatic performance."
This is a very unimportant amendment, with which I shall not delay the Dáil very long. It is intended to exempt from the provisions of this Bill weapons carried by members of theatrical companies for the purpose of dramatic performances. As the Dáil will remember, almost ever since their invention, firearms have been found indispensable for theatrical performances. You will find in Shakespeare that there were explosions, and the Minister, no doubt, will remember that Shakespeare's Globe Theatre was burned down as a result of one of these explosions during a performance of "Henry VIII."
Hence this Bill.
I rather doubt whether Shakespeare ever conceived the Minister for Home Affairs, even in his imagination. Going on, we find, through the range of the drama, firearms constantly employed on the stage. It would hardly be conceived that the Dublin Metropolitan Police and the Gárda Síochána would suddenly appear on the stage in "The Rivals," and interrupt the Duel Scene on the ground that firearms are being used, not for the purpose of display. It would certainly be impossible to perform any modern American crook drama, which depends almost entirely on the production of guns and on people holding up their hands, unless some provision such as this is made. If the Minister says he is prepared to make provision under Section 2 (b) to exclude such persons from the Bill, I should accept that, or if he says that this amendment will hamper him in carrying out his main purpose, on the ground that the persons in possession of the arms are only play-actors, I shall not press it, but I would like to hear his views on the subject.
Mr. O'HIGGINS
If it was considered advisable to give this exemption it could be given, as the Deputy points out, under Section 2 (b) of the Bill. But I am not convinced of the necessity or the desirability of any such exemption. I am informed that instruments are now turned out, resembling very closely revolvers and rifles, which are not capable of firing a shot, but which, in some way that I have not examined into, are capable of creating the explosion necessary to have the proper effect on the audience. No permit of any kind would be necessary for instruments of that nature, and I think it is better simply to take the stand that such instruments should be used in theatrical performances. The suggestion of the Deputy opens up possibilities of people being found with arms and giving the very plausible and elaborate explanation that they were on their way to some amateur theatrical performance, and that a gun was a necessary part of the equipment for their piece. All that might be difficult to disprove, and I think it is rather recognised now that the instruments used on the stage ought not to be real firearms, capable of transmitting a bullet.
I withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question:"That Section 7, as amended, stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to.
Section 8 and the Title put and agreed to.