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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 4 Apr 1924

Vol. 6 No. 37

TEMPORARY ACCOMMODATION OF THE OIREACHTAS. - ANGLO-AMERICAN LIQUOR TREATY.

I beg to move the motion in my name as follows:—

Beartuitear de bhrí gur sighníodh i Washington an 23adh lá dEanair, 1924, thar ceann Uachtarán Stát Aontuithe Mheirice agus thar ceann a Shoillse ach go ndéanfí iad do dhaingniú Airtiogail Co-Aontuithe do Chonnra i dtaobh regleáil na Trádála Oil lasmuich de mhuir dhuchais Stát Aontuithe Mheirice (Airtiogail go bhfuil a mbrí le feiscint so Sceideal a ghabhann leis seo) agus

Be it resolved, that whereas Articles of Agreement for a Treaty respecting the regulation of the Liquor Traffic outside the territorial waters of the United States of America (whereof the tenor appears by the Schedule hereto) were signed at Washington on the 23rd day of January, 1924, on behalf of the President of the United States of America and His Majesty subject to ratification, and

De bhrí go mbaineann forálacha an Chonnartha san le leasanna Shaorstáit Eireann agus go bhfuil sé oiriúnach go ndéanfí an céanna do dhaingniú ar son Shaorstáit Eireann;

Whereas the provisions of the said Treaty affect the interests of Saorstát Eireann and it is expedient that the same should be ratified in respect of Saorstát Eireann,

Go gceaduionn Dáil Eireann an Connra san do dhaingniú agus go molann sí don Ard-Chomhairle san do chur in úil don Choróinn.

Dáil Eireann approves of the ratification of the said Treaty and recommends that the Executive Council do so advise the Crown.

In doing so, perhaps I had better give some explanations of the history and meaning of this Treaty. It will be remembered that somewhere about 1919 the Constitution of the United States was amended, in what was known as the 18th Article, to prohibit the manufacture of alcoholic liquor in the United States and the transportation through import into, or export from the United States, of alcoholic liquor. That amendment of the Constitution was made law by an Act known as the Volsted Act. From that time on there was a great deal of international difficulty. On the one hand there was a large remunerative, highly immoral business carried on of importing liquor into the United States. The United States authorities found it necessary to wage a sort of war on that traffic. On the one hand they found it highly important that they should be able to extend their powers of search and seizure outside what is known as the three-mile limit. On the other hand, when these cases came into court, the United States Courts declared that under the Volsted Act it was illegal for any ship in United States territorial waters to have alcoholic liquor on board. By way of finding a modus vivendi between various nations, this Treaty comes along. Under this Treaty the United States authorities have power to search vessels, and if necessary, seize their contents within an area which can extend beyond the three-mile limit. That is an area represented by one hour's journey by the ship that would bring the liquor to the land. That is done because it was the habit of the liquor traffickers, commonly known as “boot-leggers,” to have a ship to take the liquor from another country and to stop outside the area of the United States territorial waters. Boats would then go from the shore, generally fast motor boats, take the liquor from the ship and transport it to the land. Under the old system a ship, by staying outside the territorial waters, claimed to be exempt from any action by the United States authorities. This Treaty will allow the authorities to search and make seizures within an area represented by one hour's travelling. At the same time, foreign vessels will be allowed to have liquor on board, which is part of ships stores, or stores which they may be transporting, not to the United States, but to some other country, merely making a United States port a port of call. They will be allowed to have such liquor on board under seal. The Treaty became necessary as that could not be done by a non-Treaty agreement. It was felt, in view of the finding of the United States courts, that the matter might again come into court, where it might be ruled that, as the law stood, no ship had a right to have liquor on board in United States territorial waters. The Treaty, presumably, when ratified by the United States Legislature, will have the effect of having a more binding, more powerful and more judicial effect than the Volsted Act. This Treaty has been signed in Washington.

I notice that a Deputy proposes to move an amendment recommending that the Dáil "withholds approval of the ratification of the said Treaty pending consideration of the full text of same." When I saw that first I did not quite understand what the point of it was, but yesterday in the Seanad, when moving this Resolution, I was told that a story was being spread abroad that we were actually attempting to conceal part of the Treaty. I may as well inform the Dáil that the whole Treaty is on the Orders of the Day and that the Dáil is committed to nothing it has not got before it. The whole Treaty is there as it is submitted to us, and as we agreed to its signature. In view of the misrepresentation which I am told has taken place, I will read what is known as the Preamble. It says:—

His Majesty the King of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and of the British Dominions beyond the Seas, Emperor of India;

And the President of the United States of America;

Being desirous of avoiding any difficulties which might arise between them in connection with the laws in force in the United States on the subject of alcoholic beverages;

Have decided to conclude a convention for that purpose;

And have appointed as their Plenipotentiaries;

His Majesty the King of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and of the British Dominions beyond the Seas, Emperor of India;

The Right Honourable Sir Auckland Campbell Geddes, G.C.M.G., K.C.B., his Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary to the United States of America;

The President of the United States of America;

Charles Evans Hughes, Secretary of State of the United States.

I understood from my informant that exception was taken to the title attributed to the Crown, "King of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland." I may as well explain that that is the title still held by the Crown. In order to change it, it would be necessary to have an Act of Parliament in the British Parliament. I have called the attention of the British authorities to the fact that this title is no longer descriptive of fact. One might say that it is like the title borne by His Brittanic Majesty up to about the time of the Union of the Irish and English Parliament, namely, "King of France." It was a description without relation to fact. I have not pressed nor urged the British Government to take immediate steps for rectification pending the settlement of the boundary question here. I recommend that the Dáil approve of this Resolution. I may say that the Executive Council were consulted with regard to what action was to be taken as to whether or not this Treaty should be agreed to. Actually we recommend that it should be agreed to because we were necessarily sympathetic to the Government of the United States. During the last two years we were very seriously affected by the illegal traffic of bringing arms into this country for the purpose of waging war upon the people. During that time, if we had rather more shipping power than we possessed it would have been a very great convenience to us if we had wider powers of search and seizure. As a Government, we recognise that every Government must take every means in its power, and that no one outside has a right to try to interfere with that Government in enforcing the laws of that country. The law of America is prohibition, and the American Government is bound to use all the means in its power to enforce that law. We feel that it is our duty to meet them in every possible way, and in no way to attempt to put any hindrance or difficulty in their way in enforcing the laws in their own country.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

I second the motion.

I want to ask the Minister what would be the consequences of our not ratifying this Treaty.

I may as well answer that question, not in my own words, but in the words used in answer to the same question in the Canadian Parliament. The reply given there was: "In the event of the Parliament of any Dominion refusing its concurrence the British Government would probably re-word the Treaty and exempt from its provisions a country so dissenting."

I move the following amendment:

In the Third Paragraph to delete all words after the words "Dáil Eireann" to the end of the paragraph, and to substitute therefor the words, "withholds approval of the ratification of the said Treaty pending consideration of the full text of same."

I do not want to waste the time of the Dáil by talking, but very grave matters are raised in this Treaty and also, possibly, very controversial matters. It is absolutely impossible for us to discuss these matters until we have the full text of the Treaty before us, and it is in order that the Dáil would have an opportunity of considering these questions that I move this amendment. I hope that I will give sufficient reasons to the Dáil why it should insist on having the full text before it. We have seen in the Press, and it has been stated by the Minister, that a similar motion was passed by the Seanad yesterday. The Minister then read out, as he has read out to-day, a portion of the Treaty which is not on the Order Paper. He read out a very important portion of the Treaty in which, on two occasions, it uses the term "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland," and he stated, I understand from the Press report, in the Seanad, that that was not an essential portion of the Treaty. He stated here to-day that the whole Treaty was on the Order Paper. The point that the preamble of a treaty is not an essential portion of a treaty, or that a treaty without a preamble is a treaty at all, is contrary to the opinion of all authorities on international law, and also, I think, contrary to commonsense.

I will, with the indulgence of the Dáil, read a short paragraph on the matter in the work of Oppenheim, which is standard work in the English language on international law. In volume 1, page 666, it says:—

"The following order in making treaty is usually observed. A first part, the so-called preamble, comprises the names of the heads of the contracting States, of their duly authorised representatives, and the motives for the conclusion of the treaty. A second part consists of the primary stipulations in numbered articles. A third part consists of miscellaneous stipulations concerning the duration of the treaty, its ratification, the accession of third Powers, and the like. The last part comprises the signatures of the representatives."

Now, we have on the Order Paper certain articles of agreement and certain stipulations with regard to ratification and duration, but we have not got the first part of the Treaty, that is to say, the preamble, and we have not the last paragraph, that is, the signatures of the plenipotentiaries. It is, as I said, practically the unanimous opinion of all authorities on international law that these various parts of treaties are equally essential. I have read a quotation from Oppenheim. Bassett Moore, in his digest on international law, which was prepared under the auspices of the American Government, in Volume 5 uses practically identical language. Nys, in his book on international law, states that each part of the Treaty is essential. Practically the same words are used by Pradier-Fodéré, and Jellinek, and other authorities. A treaty is an international legal document, and this Treaty is a legal document, and it is particularly so in this case. It is not only an international legal document, but it is about to become a municipal legal document as well. I will deal later with this question as it affects the Constitution of the United States, and the position which this Treaty will occupy in the municipal law of the United States. I think it is very scant courtesy to the Dáil in this resolution to approve of the ratification of the whole Treaty without the Dáil having seen the entire text of it. I maintain that it is an unconstitutional procedure, that the Dáil should be asked to approve of a certain legal document without having the legal document before us.

We find in the preamble to this motion it is stated "Whereas, etc., Articles of Agreement for a Treaty respecting regulations of the liquor traffic outside the territorial waters of the United States of America," and it is stated that we have the tenor appearing in the Schedule. Why the word "tenor" is used in that connection I do not know. Surely it would be an obvious thing for the Minister to put down the text of the Treaty and not its tenor. This is in striking contradiction to another motion which the Minister has down for Tuesday—a motion for ratifying a Convention with regard to agricultural labour. In that we find that the terms of it are set out in the schedule hereto. We find in that motion the word "terms" used, while in this motion the word "tenor" is used. It is a curious distinction in phraseology. Why is the same procedure not adopted in these two cases? These are matters which, I think, the Dáil has a right to know. Possibly the Minister is of the opinion that the Dáil is so fragile in its health that the shock of putting down the preamble to this Treaty on the Order Paper would cause grievous harm to the members of the Dáil. The Seanad was asked yesterday to pass an identical motion, and I maintain that the Seanad was not treated fairly in that matter.

I think we ought not go into that. It is a matter for the Seanad, and not for us.

No; it is not for us. I would only point out that even the members of the Seanad who supported this motion stated that they presumed that the text of the Treaty was as stated on the Order Paper, that there was nothing hidden, and that they relied on the Minister putting them right on the matter. He put them right only to the same extent as he put us right here. The Minister read out something about the Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. What exactly is this United Kingdom, and what are its functions? He has tried to make light of the matter by pretending that it is only a question of the title of the King. I am afraid that that is not the case. A Treaty in international law is not between persons or sovereigns, but between States. This Treaty has been, I understand, passed by the Senate of the United States, and in the Constitution of the United States it is provided that once a treaty has been passed by the Senate it becomes ipso facto part of the municipal law of the United States. I understand that this particular Treaty is being inscribed in the municipal law of the United States as a Treaty between the United States of America and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.

I understand that is the term which is used in the inscription of this Treaty in the Municipal Laws of the United States. I understand when this Treaty comes to be ratified or registered in the League of Nations, that likewise it will be described as a Treaty between the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and the United States of America. Treaties have been ratified during 1923 at the League of Nations—I have seen the official publications—and also, I believe, in 1924 between "the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland," and some other country. It is now two years and four months since a Treaty was signed in London of which the First Article states that Ireland shall be styled and be known as the Irish Free State. We are now asked in this Dáil to approve of a Treaty without having the full text before us, and the parts which are left out, as the Minister has read out to the Dáil, refer to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. I do not see how we can discuss the grave matter which this Treaty raises unless we are in possession of the full text. There is a further section of the Treaty which has not yet been communicated to the Dáil, and that is the final section, the Signatures. One would think that was an essential portion of the Treaty. The Minister has not mentioned that. He stated that Sir Auckland Geddes had signed this Treaty. We will have to discuss when we get the text of the Treaty whether Sir Auckland Geddes was authorised by this State to sign this Treaty on our behalf. We cannot discuss these things until we have the text of the Treaty. In to-day's Press a message from Melbourne states that in the Commonwealth House of Representatives yesterday a motion proposed by Mr. Bruce in favour of printing the Lausanne Treaty so as to enable ratification of peace with Turkey was carried without dissent.

This Treaty with Turkey is contained in a large volume which has maps. It cost me 8/-. The Prime Minister of Australia has sufficient regard for the House of Representatives to have this Treaty published and printed in Australia for the information of the House before they decided to ratify it. Yet the Minister has not had the courtesy even to add these few extra lines which are essential for this House in order that it may discuss this Treaty properly. I do not wish to enter into all the questions raised by the Treaty at this point, but I do say it will be very ill advised to agree to a legal document that is not only legal internationally but will be part of the laws of another country. I think the Dáil would be ill advised to agree to this document without having the full text before it. I raise this point not in any spirit of hostility to the British Government nor in any spirit of disrespect to any high personage, but some members seem to be under the impression that our relations with Great Britain are something very terrible and dangerous, and that they should not be mentioned in public. That is the contrary of the truth. Our relations with Great Britain should be, and, I hope, are on the most friendly terms, and it is only right that the Dáil should have an opportunity of discussing our constitutional relations with Great Britain on an important matter such as the first Treaty the Government has asked the Dáil to approve of. At a later stage, when we get the full text of the Treaty, we will be in a position to discuss the constitutional matters raised.

I second the amendment. I do not think the House is fairly treated by the Minister for External Affairs when he leaves out the preamble. It is like playing the confidence trick on the House. It is not the first Treaty or agreement made by the Minister about which we know nothing at all. Notices have appeared within the last two years in the Press of commercial treaties, but the House was not informed of them.

I want to say a few words in support of the amendment. The question of the seas and the general question of the territorial waters should interest us in Ireland very much because they affected our position in relation to England for hundreds of years. I think it is generally accepted that the question of England's rights or the assertion of her rights to control the seas around Ireland or the East Coast was one of the greatest obstacles we had to contend with in fighting for the measure of freedom which we have won. Coming to this question of the Treaty, I say at the outset that I am against any such methods such as those resorted to by the Minister for External Affairs in asking the Dáil to vote for or to support the motion in favour of a Treaty or a convention, a very small part of which is only made public, and a few articles of which we are only furnished with on paper. It is a serious matter, because the whole question of popular representation is involved.

As the Deputy says only a few articles of this Treaty are made known to the Dáil, I would ask him which of the Articles of the Treaty are not made known.

I would like to withdraw that. I mean certain parts of the Treaty that were deliberately, or otherwise, left out when this Order was being put on the Paper. Now, to begin with, I object to the mention of the King as one of the contracting parties to this document. I object to the title, which one of the contracting parties claims, as head of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. The Treaty between Great Britain and Ireland gave us a status which, I believe, ended for all time the title United Kingdom, or should have done so. Two years or more have elapsed since that Treaty was signed, and this title should be wiped out by legislation or otherwise. Now, coming to the subject of the Treaty itself——

The Deputy is supporting an amendment which is proposing to postpone consideration of the subject.

I am not allowed to discuss the resolution so?

The amendment is directed towards getting the full text of the Treaty, and then having a discussion upon it. If the amendment is carried, the full text will be supplied, and that full text will then be fully discussed, and Deputy Esmonde and Deputy McCabe will have an opportunity of speaking on it. If the amendment is not carried, the Treaty, in so far as it stands on the Order Paper, will then be discussed.

The main question, in my opinion, is whether the Dáil—this popular assembly—should commit itself to a document which may mean leaving permanently on the Statute books, or the records, of other nations, the title of the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland." It is a very serious question, and it is a subject which the Dáil should give very serious attention to before committing themselves in any way, by voting for it, or otherwise.

If this is a Treaty between the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, as they call it, and the United States we, as a State claiming independence of that unit, should not bother our heads about it, because it does not settle the business one way or the other. I submit that the Dáil, in view of the status we have secured, should postpone consideration of this Treaty indefinitely, because I believe it would be a serious injustice to us, and to the country, to go on with it.

I rise to support the amendment.

I would like to notify the Deputy that we are taking up Private Business at 2 o'clock.

Can I move the adjournment of the debate?

That, perhaps, would be the simpler procedure. Then we could take Private Business.

It would be very hard, of course, to compress what I have to say on this matter into a little over five minutes.

I suspected that.

I have no intention of trying to do so. The matters involved in this amendment are too grave and have too far-reaching implications to be dismissed in the airy and flippant manner in which the Minister for External Affairs has dealt with the omissions from the text of the Treaty.

To his mind it may appear to be meticulously critical that we should insist that these things which the Treaty of December, 1921, rendered obsolete should not again appear in the laws affecting this State. I heard the Minister yesterday in the Seanad saying that this title was the remnant of the old régime.

The Deputy must confine himself to what the Minister says here. I deprecate any allusion to what the Minister says in another place, and I also deprecate the idea of going over debates that have taken place in another place, and using them here for this purpose.

I am sorry if I have transgressed. I quite see I was wrong. But the Minister uttered in the Dáil practically a repetition of it, and therefore I think I can refer to it. If this title of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland is obsolete, if it is a thing that was dismissed or eliminated by the Treaty of 1921, between this country and Great Britain, why does it reappear here, and why are we asked to accept it as a definition of our part in the family of nations?

Why has that particular portion of the Treaty been omitted—that particular portion which gives rise to controversy, and which describes us as part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland? It cannot have been for the purpose of economy in printing. It cannot have been that those who were preparing the Orders of the Day forgot to insert it. It must have been that the Minister considered that this particular portion would be resented by the Dáil and the country, and that therefore it was well to leave that out; nobody would then fall to what was being done; this thing would be smuggled through and the country would be unaware of what it was being committed to.

Now, I say if that is a true interpretation of what has been done, it was a deliberate attempt to hoodwink this Assembly, and unless there can be a better explanation of this particular omission than has already been given, then it nearly becomes the duty of someone in this Assembly to move that the Minister responsible for that omission is no longer worthy of the confidence of the Assembly. I beg to move the adjournment of the debate.

I have got the permission of the Deputy who is concerned with the Private Business, and now, with the permission of the Dáil, I would ask that this debate would be allowed to continue until 3 o'clock.

Deputy McKenna's permission has been obtained for this proposal. Is that agreed?

The Dáil agreed.

Deputy Milroy can therefore continue.

I have said that this has a very serious aspect for us, as custodians of the status, the dignities and liberties of this new-born State, and it behoves us as such to be even more jealous of such things, than, perhaps, those of long-established and well-based States who have the strength and the power to assert their rights when they are assailed. The particular definition that is contained in this Treaty, but which is not given to us here, is one which does seem to me to try to belittle the status that we secured in the Treaty in December, 1921.

In any case, this Treaty, so far as it has been disclosed, has no reference to Irish life. I do not want to discuss it; but there is nothing disclosed in the Treaty as given to us which indicates that there is any Saorstát interest affected. The Minister tells us that he did not press this question on the British authorities pending the decision of the Boundary Commission. I want to know what, in God's name, has the decision of the Boundary Commission got to do with this question? Is the Boundary Commission going to decide whether or not the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland still survives? I think the Boundary Commission will have its work set out to deal with the things that will really be pertinent to its inquiries without going into that question, which now only concerns antiquarians and the Minister for External Affairs. I say we not only want the production of the full text, but we ought to have the despatches between the Minister for External Affairs of the Saorstát and the responsible Minister in Great Britain. Let us know what has led up to this. Let us know what is the meaning of producing a mutilated document, and asking us to endorse the full meaning and implications of the whole document. Let us have the full story now that we have such an epidemic of inquiries into things that are done in secrecy. Let us have this little ray of illumination in the full glare of the sunlight that is going to be thrown on all dark places. Deputy McCarthy spoke of other Treaties. What are they? Where are they? With whom? I think it is fortunate that this particular Treaty has appeared in the way it has, because it has given us reason to think seriously of how our relations with other States are being dealt with. Now, I saw in the British Parliament the other day an announcement that all Treaties were going to be laid on the Table of that Assembly. If they are finished with secret diplomacy over there, while there is no reason really why we should take precedent from them, still let us not start with that old game of secret diplomacy in this new-born State. If there is nothing to conceal, then let us have everything produced. If there is something to conceal, then let those responsible for it bear the weight of that responsibility; but we shall not allow this State to be deprived of its legitimate status by any hole-and-corner methods or by any flippant, airy but inadequate explanations by any Minister. We have now come to the time of plain speaking. I hope it will continue. For my part, I intend to speak fairly straight and bluntly to any Minister in the Dáil when the necessity arises.

I would like to ask whether the Ministers do not think that this is a matter to which they should give some reply before we even proceed any further with the discussion. There have been certain questions asked with regard to the legal position taken by the Ministry and their relations with other countries. I submit that those are questions that ought to be responded to before we proceed with the discussion.

On a point of order, I understand that we are now discussing this amendment and not the general question of the Treaty.

Yes. We are discussing the amendment.

I am not prepared to give up my right to speak. I take it that if the Minister speaks now he is not closing the debate on the amendment?

There has been a suggestion all through this debate that an attempt has been made to conceal things. In the speech of the last speaker also there was the suggestion made that they wanted the secret despatches that were written about this matter. I understood from the remarks, however, that it was suggested that there were despatches between the British Government and this Government suggesting the omission of the preamble. I may as well say, as far as this is concerned, the only despatches that occurred on the negotiations were not between this Government and the British Government. They were between the Attorney-General and myself. I submitted the Treaty as we got it to the Attorney-General for drafting. The draft is as he drafted it, and as it is now before the Dáil. There has been a lot of correspondence about this Treaty, and the terms of the Treaty are set out in the Order Paper. Those are the terms of the Treaty as we got them, and as we agreed to them. We put them before the Dáil exactly as we got them. In the setting out of the Treaty, as Deputy Esmonde said, there is usually a preamble. The Treaty of the 6th December, 1921, changed the existing state of affairs, but it did not change a certain British Act, the Royal Titles Act; it changed the meaning that can be attributed to that Act in fact, not the words of that Act. It did not really change them.

The official title of the Crown is, as I read out there, "King of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland." The official title was before the Act of Union of 1800—King of the United Kingdom. It is a matter for the English people to decide whether they will continue the title of King of the United Kingdom, and if they propose that the term King of the United Kingdom remain, it is a matter of the definition that applies to that. If, for instance, the result of the Boundary Commission were that the territory known as Northern Ireland, which is not now subject to the legislation of this Government, came under the legislation of this Government, conceivably the royal title would remain possibly King of the United Kingdom, but the definition of United Kingdom there would be, as before the Union, United Kingdom of England and Scotland.

It is also possible—I do not want to anticipate things or in any way prejudice things—that as a result of the findings of the Boundary Commission, or as a result of whatever arrangement is come to under Article 12 of the Treaty, that a certain part of Northern Ireland may remain as it is at present, outside the jurisdiction of this Government. In that case it is conceivable that the royal title. "King of the United Kingdom," might have a definition to it as United Kingdom of England, Scotland, and such an area known as Ireland. As I said before, the royal title up to about 1800 was "king of Great Britain and of France." The people of France might have protested to their Government periodically about this thing, but it was the fact that counted there; the title existed until its non-relation to fact made it meaningless.

Did the people of France subscribe to that and accept it, as you are asking us to do?

I am not asking you to do anything of the sort. I say it was not one of the clauses of the Treaty of the 6th December, 1921, that the Royal Titles Bill must be immediately amended. As a matter of fact at the present time, if the British people want to keep the term "United Kingdom," as they have a perfect right to do, it is a matter then of the definition of the United Kingdom, and at the present moment that is not a matter which has been finally settled.

I did not suggest, as there was an attempt made to represent me as suggesting, that the Boundary Commission was going to consider Royal titles. I said nothing of the sort, but I say that the definition attaching to the Royal title, if the term "United Kingdom" remains, may vary according to the findings of the Boundary Commission, or according to the result of whatever action is taken under Article 12 of the Treaty. For that reason, I do not urge the thing as I otherwise might have done, but at the same time if the British Government refuses to bring in an Act of Parliament to amend the Royal Titles Act, I am not at this moment aware of how you can force them to bring in such an Act any more than they can force us to bring in an Act. I for one would very much resent any attempt on their part to force us to bring in an Act, merely because something here was not in proper relation to fact.

Subject to the correction of the Attorney-General, I do not say that we have any power to put it up to the British Government that they are bound to bring in any Act of Parliament. As their law stands, and until a new Royal Titles Act is brought in, the Royal titles remain as they are. There has been a consistent attempt here to suggest that there was dishonesty in presenting the Treaty as we got it. We presented it as we got it with our own preamble so far as it related to Ireland. Until Deputy Esmonde spoke about the signatories, I had not even thought about this. This is a proposal for a Treaty between the United States, on the one hand, and the countries of the British Commonwealth of Nations on the other. It is for the Executive Council, and in this case we might be described as asking for a direction and a recommendation from the Dáil, to say whether or not the terms contained in these Articles, as set forth on the Order Paper, shall be entered upon in our name. It is a fact that treaties of this nature are entered into between the heads of States, between Sovereigns, and the vehicle used under the existing Constitution here is the machinery of the Crown. That is the fact, and there is no good in trying to conceal it, that in this matter the Crown acts. I say this plainly because the newspapers did not report me quite properly to-day: that in this matter ratification is done at the instance of the Government—as far as the Free State is concerned at the instance of the Government of the Irish Free State—but the Crown is actually the machinery used. The full text of the Treaty was sent to us, and we were kept very closely informed about it. As Deputy Esmonde knows, better perhaps than any other Deputy here, we ourselves recommended this Treaty. Deputy Esmonde was there and agreed. On one occasion we recommended its acceptance because we wished in no way to act in any unfriendly spirit or to attempt to be in any way unhelpful to the United States Government.

On a point of personal explanation, may I say that I think the Minister's memory has failed him in the reference he has made to me. I would not mention this, but for the fact that he stated that I was present at the Conference, and had agreed to this Treaty. I challenge him to produce the reports of the Imperial Conference in which it is stated definitely in black and white, that there should be no treaty. It was unanimously decided at the Imperial Conference that there should be no treaty; that no kind of agreement should require Parliamentary sanction. It was decided that matter could be settled between Great Britain and America by an exchange of Notes, which is not an International treaty between the heads of States; but it is an agreement between the members of two Governments. That was the unanimous decision at the Imperial Conference, and when the Minister says that I agreed to this Treaty he is utterly mistaken.

I admit, as far as I remember, that Deputy Esmonde agreed as to the general tenor, if I may use the word again, of this arrangement. Afterwards it was discovered, that in view of the result of legal actions, that the Volsted Act would and could be interpreted again in the law courts as it was interpreted before, and that the only means of overcoming that difficulty was the Treaty, and that is how the Treaty came along. We actually ourselves recommended that this agreement should be entered into with America. The undertakings that are given on the one side and on the other were submitted to us, and we finally recommended that they be signed.

As far as this Dáil is concerned, I say, subject to correction by the Attorney-General, that the only thing binding on us are the terms of the Treaty, as set forth on the Order Paper. I am advised by the Attorney-General that, as set forth in the Order Paper, it is quite correct. As far as I am concerned, and as far as the Government is concerned, there was no attempt to conceal anything from anybody here. We were asked ourselves did we agree to these terms. We said "Yes," that it was all subject to ratification, and that before we finally recommended ratification we would bring the same terms as were submitted to us before the Dáil, and ask it to agree with us in recommending the ratification of this Treaty. As far as the signatories are concerned, Deputy Esmonde says that the Dáil has not seen them. I have not seen the actual signatures myself. There are two signatures so far attached, but the Treaty itself is not a fact until it is finally ratified, and it is for that ratification that we bring it before the Dáil. The signatories are "A. C. Geddes" and "Charles Evans Hughes." They act as plenipotentiaries, as agents for the two heads of States, namely, the British Crown and the President of the United States of America.

The Minister says that the signatories should act as representatives of the heads of States, and I think I gathered that the heads of States are to be presumed to be acting on instructions of the Governments of their respective countries. It would be important, I think, to know whether there is any superscription indicating that the signatory, on behalf of the British Crown, has acted on behalf of the Government of the Saorstát, and for that reason I think it is important that the Dáil should be made aware, in its official records, on the Order Paper, of the full text of the proposed Treaty. But it is even more important that the Preamble should also be laid before the House formally, as well as the Articles of the Treaty proper. The Preamble undoubtedly affects, and must affect, the reading and interpretation of the Articles. I think the point made by Deputy Esmonde is a sound one; and he is to be congratulated on having brought this matter to our notice in the way he has done, both in the fact and in the manner of his bringing it forward. I support him in his view that the full text, from beginning to end, should be laid before us before we are asked to approve of the ratification of the Treaty and to recommend the Executive Council to advise the Crown on behalf of the Saorstát to approve of this Treaty.

I do not intend at this stage to go into the merits of the Treaty. I think they have to be very carefully considered, and I agree that the matter is important; that is the matter of the method of approach and the way it has been brought before us, and the authority that has been given for entering into such an arrangement on behalf of the Saorstát. We will assume, from what the Minister has stated, that negotiations for this Treaty were instituted at the instigation or with the concurrence of the Executive Council of the Saorstát, and that the signatory for the British Crown has been acting as plenipotentiary, appointed by the Crown—acting on the advice of the Saorstát. Are we right in that assumption, and is it so stated in the records of the United States Government? Do they understand that Sir Auckland Geddes, when he put his signature to this, was acting as the plenipotentiary of the Saorstát? It seems to me that notwithstanding what the British Government may think of this matter, when entering into negotiations which involve, in some degree, the Saorstát, the other party to the contract has the right to be quite clear that the person speaking on behalf of the British Crown is also speaking on behalf of Saorstát Eireann specifically appointed for that purpose. Are we entitled to believe that that is the fact, or is it that the Treaty is to be ratified after it has been made, and that no authority was specifically given by the Government of the Saorstát to enter into these negotiations? We may find from the text of the proposed Treaty between the Saorstát and the United States that all that is made perfectly clear and easily understood, but we ought not be asked to assume it, or even to deny it, until the text has been laid before us. Without going into the other matters I support the amendment proposed by Deputy Esmonde, and I ask the Ministry to accede to the suggestion so that proper discussion upon the merits of the Treaty may be brought forward at the earliest possible date.

I say the request contained in this amendment is reasonable. It is a reasonable thing to expect that before the Dáil would consent to the ratification of the Treaty that the full text should be given to Deputies, and on that question of fact I am going to support the amendment. Deputy Esmonde says we have not got it, but the Minister for External Affairs says we have to a certain extent, but that there are certain eliminations. Without going into the question of law, I say that before we agree to ratify this Treaty I believe we ought to know its full text. No answer was given to the point raised by Deputy Esmonde in regard to the word "tenor." In one case we were asked to ratify an agreement the terms of which were submitted. In the other case we were asked to affirm a Treaty the tenor of which was submitted. I think we have a right to insist upon the full terms and on the facts more than any of the other Self-governing Colonies.

As a matter of information, what is meant by the other Self-governing Colonies?

Well, the Self-governing Dominions. A Canadian would speak of the King of Great Britain and Ireland.

Are statements of that kind to be let pass, that by a Canadian the King is regarded not as King of Canada?

He is regarded in South Africa, of which I know something, as King of Great Britain and Ireland and not as King of South Africa.

This is a constitutional question, and not a question of what a certain Afrikander may or may not say.

I am only speaking here as a man not versed in Constitutional Law. I am speaking as a common citizen, and I am saying how a common citizen would recognise the King, and we in Ireland only want to visualise the position and to show by our action that we do not recognise him in his title as King of Great Britain and Ireland. He is King of Great Britain and a piece of Ireland if you like, but we do not recognise him in that way. It may be so in law, but the ordinary man in the street does not understand him in that way, and the Government and the Minister, by omitting to put that particular point, knows that feeling is there, and why not let us understand where we are?

As I have been referred to in connection with the motion on the Paper, there are one or two observations I would like to make.

The schedule to the motion on the Paper contains all the articles of the proposed Treaty. As I understand, it will not be a Treaty until it is ratified. It is at the moment a group of Articles which have been negotiated, and, so far as the representatives of heads of States were able to do so, they have negotiated and arrived at those Articles, and those articles must subsequently be ratified by the various Parliaments involved. The Dominion position does involve that, as regards political treaties, the Crown is the mouthpiece through which the various Dominions speak assent or dissent, and it is for the purpose of indicating through that mouthpiece such assent or dissent that the Motion is on the Paper. In the negotiated Articles as they appear over the hands of the negotiators —and I understand that during these negotiations the Government itself was kept in close touch with every phase of the negotiations—one of them describes himself as the plenipotentiary of his Britannic Majesty, and he sets out certain titles and designations in full description of his Britannic Majesty. It did appear to me that if those were set down in the Order Paper we could not assent to the Treaty, including those, because we could not assent to the particular description of the British Crown, and it did seem to me that the only way that we could deal with the terms, as they had been arrived at, subject to ratification, would be to see whether or not we agree with them. We could not involve ourselves in saying whether or not we agreed with Mr. Geddes' description of the titles of the British Crown. The position as regards the titles is this.

The expression "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland" is one of the series of expressions which have been attached to the British Crown by an Act known as the Royal Titles Act, which is internationally recognised. I believe that it is a necessary implication of the Treaty that that royal title must be modified. The Minister has said that the question as to whether the British are bound to bring in an Act to change the title is one for the Attorney-General. I dissent. That is a political matter; it is not a mere legal technicality; it is one of the constitutional and political matters arising from the Treaty to which we are parties, and I believe that it is a necessary implication of that Treaty that, as soon as it can be conveniently done, the British Government should take steps to make the necessary modifications in the Royal Titles Act. It has been already pointed out to them, by myself among others, that there is no great difficulty, because the expression, "United Kingdom," was one which existed before the Act of Union, so that it is a matter that ought not to present to them any great difficulty. It is one that ought to be pressed upon them, and I am not sure that this opportunity may not be a useful one for pressing the point. It does occur to me that perhaps there may be a way of dealing with it here in this way, that while the Dáil might assent to the terms, if it approves of them, it might, at the same time, instruct the Government that it is to direct attention to this matter of the titles, and to say that such assent must not be expressed through the Crown as representing the former United Kingdom but as representing the Dominion of the Irish Free State.

resumed the Chair.

May I add a few words to reinforce what the Attorney-General has said; not that I believe or would suggest that what he has said requires strengthening, but simply because it sometimes happens that when a great legal authority makes a pronouncement, ordinary people go away under the impression that it is some subtle, ingenious, juristic point which may not be sound in the view of the man of ordinary commonsense, and it is to add support to what he said that I speak, merely from the point of view of the ordinary man. I have another purpose. It is to repudiate in the strongest terms that I am at liberty to use within the limits of Parliamentary procedure what Deputy Wilson said a few moments ago. It is not within the competence of a Deputy, who has promised his allegiance to the Constitution of the Irish Free State, and has promised also to be faithful to the Treaty, to repudiate the very first Article of that Treaty where there is a question of the fullest and most explicit assertion of the rights of the Irish nation in consequence of that Treaty. Deputy Wilson professes to be supporting Deputy Esmonde, and he is under the impression, I believe honestly under the impression, that he is doing something fine and patriotic, whereas he is declaring that to be a fact which, if it were correctly described by him as a fact, would mean that there is no Irish nation at all, and, therefore, no Irish nation whose rights require to be asserted in this full, public, and explicit fashion. The first Article of the Treaty is: "Ireland shall have the same constitutional status in the community of nations and shall be styled and known as the Irish Free State." Ireland is the Irish Free State; the Free State is Ireland. It is not, as Deputy Wilson suggests, portion of Ireland. It is the whole of Ireland that is described in the first Article of the Treaty as the Irish Free State: "Ireland shall be styled and known as the Irish Free State," and that is the style it ought to have in any amended form of the Royal title. We should no longer hear of Great Britain and Ireland in the old-fashioned sense, and the old-fashioned connotation, but we should hear of Great Britain and the Irish Free State, or, if you like to give a fuller expression, include Ireland among the community of free nations known as the British Commonwealth of Dominions, and so on. Deputy Wilson is one of the many people—and I deal with him as a type—who would have the public believe that when we protest against partition we are in some wise under the impression that Ireland has been dismembered, whereas what has happened, and what it is necessary that he should understand, is that the area of jurisdiction of the Irish Free State is, pending certain negotiations, limited to twenty-six counties.

And not all Ireland.

A wholly different proposition. It shows what happens when the uninitiated proceed to deal with technical questions. We have here to-day what seems to be not more than a tempest in a tea-cup, except in so far as it provides an opportunity for allowing the Dáil to express a considered judgment on this whole matter. One of the Deputies referred to the Treaty with Turkey. That has been ratified by Australia; but the very latest news from Canada is that Canada has refused to ratify it; and that is of enormous importance in this connection, because the second Article of the Treaty is that the relationship of the Crown and of the Imperial Parliament to the Dominion of Canada shall govern their relationship to the Irish Free State.

Is this on my amendment?

I am wondering what has become of your amendment. Deputy Wilson appears to have side-tracked your amendment completely, and we have gone back to the interpretation of the Treaty between Great Britain and Ireland.

I do not feel guilty. That is an impression you have got from Deputy Magennis, and not from me.

I am speaking on the amendment, following what was said by the Attorney-General. I think the proposition in the amendment is useful, but forcing it to a division, or debating it as if it were in some way essentially in conflict with the position of the Minister for External Affairs, is a mistake. I think, Sir, you would rule that that is in order. It became necessary as a sort of prelude to what I am saying to deal with the extravaganzas of Deputy Wilson, to put them out of the way, because someone might assume that a Deputy speaking on a matter of this sort knew what he was speaking of. There is, I suggest, no essential conflict between the position taken up by the Attorney-General and that taken up by Deputy Esmonde, because both exercise their powers of interpretation and their knowledge of the constitutional position to the same end. One omits the obsolescent, or the obsolete, if you like. At the same time, as to the use on the other side of the water of the title of the Crown, one leaves that out specifically, and the other wishes to have it brought in, but the purpose in view in both cases, paradoxical as it may seem, is identical: it is to safeguard the position of Ireland in regard to these Treaties, and to see that the law, practice and constitutional usage of Canada, which is to determine our position in relation to the Crown, the Imperial Parliament or Government, shall govern this situation. I was about to say, when the question of order was raised, that the bringing forward of the amendment was valuable, because it has forced to the forefront the consideration of this very important question of the status and rights of Ireland, but, on the other hand, I believe there is no necessity to carry the matter further, so as to have a division, for example, on the amendment, because those who support the amendment of the Attorney-General are, so far as regards the basic aspect of the question, at one.

I had intended not to make any statement on this matter, because I felt to a large extent that it is outside the purview of the ordinary man in the street. At the same time I resent to a certain extent the imputations made by Deputy Professor Magennis against Deputy Wilson, because I maintain Deputy Wilson has a right to get up and express his point of view on any matter, and nothing must be reserved for specialists or people who think they have a right to monopolise the discussion on any particular subject. I am sure Deputy Wilson was giving his honest point of view on the matter, and I think the Dáil has a right to hear and respect his view. I think this matter is one of very great importance, because precedents may be established now which would control the whole future of this country, and consequently will give rise to discussions—perhaps acrimonious discussions. I think it is very advisable we should not take any move in regard to this matter without being absolutely certain we are doing the right thing. With regard to the Treaty, there are one or two points——

The question is to postpone the consideration of the Treaty.

With regard to the postponement of the Treaty, I think it is advisable that it should be postponed so that we may have placed before us the full text, and that we may know what we are sanctioning. I think it is not right that we in this Free State, a Self-governing Dominion, should delegate to the representatives of Great Britain the right to make treaties for us, in the making of which we have no voice, and which we are simply asked to ratify when they are made. I ask the Minister for External Affairs what would be the effect if we refused to ratify a treaty. We have simply to accept it in globo or refuse to ratify it altogether. With regard to the title of United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, we understand from Deputy Magennis that the king is King of Canada and King of South Africa. We do not hear the title of the King of Great Britain, Ireland, Canada, and South Africa, but Ireland is very distinctly referred to in that title.

Canada rejected that description at the time of the creation of the Dominion of Canada. I understand the more correct designation is "The King in Canada."

I might point out, therefore, that Deputy Magennis is all wrong.

May I point out, as a matter of personal explanation, that if Deputy Wilson would take the trouble to consult the inscription on a half-crown he will find "George V., by the Grace of God, King of the British Dominions."

No farmer has a half-crown.

That is a British coin, not a Canadian coin.

We have heard that in the past the King of England arrogated to himself the right to call himself King of countries over which he had no control. He called himself King of France, and he might now, according to the Minister for External Affairs, call himself King of Ireland. I may remind the Minister for External Affairs that the King has called himself for a considerable time Defender of the Faith, and we in this country deny his right to that title. Similarly, we might reasonably deny his right to call himself King of Ireland, and I think very likely, having regard to the courtesies that exist between free States, that if it were suggested to the Government of England that it was inadvisable that any title which did not meet with the approval of the people of this country, and which concerned this country should form portion of his title, the English Government would not persist in such a title.

I should like to ask the Minister if the elimination of the Preamble, and the elimination of the title King of Great Britain and Ireland is of such little importance, and so unlikely to create any difference of opinion, why should the Minister consider it desirable that the Preamble should not be printed on the Order Paper? I should also like to remind Deputy Magennis that it did not require Ireland's inclusion in the Commonwealth of Nations or a Treaty to make Ireland a nation.

There has been a lot of talk about the fact that the word "tenor" is used in one case and that in regard to the International Labour Bureau the word "terms" is used. That is the difference between one man and another. The drafting of one was done by one man and the drafting of the other by another. The actual situation, as I tried to explain, is that these Articles set out on the Order Paper were submitted to us and we actually agreed that they should be signed. That is as far as we went, and as far as we propose to commit the Dáil.

May I ask the Minister if he is revising this phrase, "Dáil Eireann approves of the ratification of the said Treaty"—not the Articles of Agreement but the whole of the Treaty, which is not yet before us?

It is not my drafting. Actually we might have brought this Treaty before the Dáil, say, before the 10th March. Had we done so we would have had to bring it forward in its present condition, because at that time these were the Articles of Agreement that had been submitted to us and whose signature we had recommended. In bringing it forward in this form there was no proposal to commit the Dáil to more than the Dáil actually had before it. We have not yet discussed the terms of the Preamble, which only reached us at a later date and which, Deputy Esmonde will be relieved to hear, can be now bought for 2d.—not quite as expensive as the Lausanne Treaty. The Dáil is only asked to be committed to the terms of this. After that it leaves it perfectly free to the Executive Council to take up with the British Government the terms set forth in the Preamble which, as I say, we only received at a later date.

May I ask the Minister, when he says that the Dáil will be only committed to that portion before us, will that be recorded in the records of the United States and the other countries concerned, or will we be simply recorded as assenting to the full text of the Treaty? That is a very important point.

I have brought these Articles of Agreement before the Dáil and asked the Dáil to recommend the Executive Council to ratify such Agreement. We only ask the Dáil to be committed to what we put before it. As I say, we put it before the Dáil exactly as it came before ourselves. This came before us at a certain date and we agreed to its signature. We put it before the Dáil at that stage and ask the Dáil to agree to the same thing. At a later date a document comes before us containing this Preamble, on which we have so far not made any recommendation. Before we make any recommendation or commit ourselves with regard to the Preamble, it is possible to have the Preamble brought before the Dáil and ask for its assent. At the present moment the Dáil is only asked to assent to what it has before it, and assenting to that leaves it open to discuss the matter of this Preamble.

Is not the Minister proposing to alter these words, "said Treaty"?

That would mean an amendment: "Dáil Eireann approves of the ratification of the said Articles of Agreement for a Treaty, and recommends that the Executive Council do so advise the Crown."

Is the Minister prepared to move that?

Yes. With regard to the Royal titles, I want to point out that the words "His Majesty the King of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland" have actually no relationship with Ireland. They are not included in that part of the title. The relationship with Ireland comes in in the later part, "of the British Dominions beyond the Seas." It is as "British Dominions beyond the Seas" we are included, and not as the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland." Although the name Ireland is used in one title and not in the other, the relationship between the Crown and this country is contained in the one in which the name of Ireland is not mentioned, and is not contained in the one in which Ireland is mentioned.

I only want to say, as I already stated, this Treaty is one legal whole. It is there, and is an Act of International Law, and you either accept, reject or amend it. Even if there is an amendment as suggested approving of the Articles of Agreement, that implies that we do not approve of the whole Treaty. The Treaty, as I said, is composed of several parts—probably four parts. It is one single whole; an ordinary legal document, and cannot be divided up into sections like that. Ratification has no significance whatever in International law if some section of the Treaty is left out. The principal point made in the Dáil has been that the matter of the title is of no importance. It is not only a matter of the title. This Treaty, I say, is being inscribed in the law of the United States as a Treaty between the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and the United States. It will be inscribed in the same phraseology in the League of Nations. For that reason, and in order that we may have the full text before us before deciding, I still press my amendment.

Amendment put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 29; Níl, 35.

Tá.

  • Seán Buitléir.
  • John Conlon.
  • Osmond Grattan Esmonde.
  • Darrell Figgis.
  • Henry J. Finlay.
  • Connor Hogan.
  • Alasdair Mac Cába.
  • Domhnall Mac Cárthaigh.
  • Tomás Mac Eoin.
  • Ristéard Mac Fheorais.
  • Seán Mac Garaidh.
  • Seán Mac Giolla 'n Ríogh.
  • Risteárd Mac Liam.
  • Seosamh Mag Craith.
  • Patrick McKenna.
  • Tomás de Nógla.
  • Próinsias O Cathail.
  • Tomás O Conaill.
  • Aodh O Cúlacháin.
  • Liam O Daimhín.
  • Eamon O Dubhghaill.
  • Seán O Duinnín.
  • Mícheál R.O hIfearnáin.
  • Seán O Laidhin.
  • Pádraig O Máille.
  • Domhnall O Muirgheasa.
  • Tadhg P.O Murchadha.
  • Pádraig O hOgáin (An Clár).
  • Pádraig K.O hOgáin (Luimneach).

Níl.

  • Earnán de Blaghd.
  • Séamus Breathnach.
  • Seoirse de Bhulbh.
  • Próinsias Bulfin.
  • Bryan R. Cooper.
  • Máighréad Ní Choileáin Bean.
  • Ui Dhrisceóil.
  • Patrick J. Egan.
  • Desmond Fitzgerald.
  • John Good.
  • John Hennigan.
  • William Hewat.
  • Liam T. Mac Cosgair.
  • Eoin Mac Neill.
  • Seoirse Mac Niocaill.
  • Liam Mag Sioghaird.
  • Liam Mag Aonghusa.
  • James Sproule Myles.
  • Martin M. Nally.
  • Peadar O hAodha.
  • Mícheál O hAonghusa.
  • Ailfrid O Broin.
  • Seán O Bruadair.
  • Aodh O Cinnéidighe.
  • Partholán O Conchubhair.
  • Séamus N. O Dóláin.
  • Peadar S. O Dubhghaill.
  • Pádraig O Dubhthaigh.
  • Eamon S. O Dúgáin.
  • Séamus O Leadáin.
  • Fionán O Loingsigh.
  • Risteárd O Maolchatha.
  • Pádraig O hOgáin (Gáillimh).
  • Seán M. O Súilleabháin.
  • Caoimhghín O hUigín.
  • Liam Thrift.
Amendment declared lost.

When will the main question be taken?

I wish first to move an amendment.

We have to take private business now. When will the main question be considered next week?

Wednesday.

Main question postponed until Wednesday, 9th April.

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