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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 3 Jun 1924

Vol. 7 No. 18

DÁIL IN COMMITTEE. - NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE BILL, 1924.—SECOND STAGE.

The purpose of this Bill is to relieve the Exchequer of the major portion of the charge for medical certification under the National Health Insurance Act. Heretofore the whole charge has been met out of the Exchequer. That was not the case during the past couple of years in Northern Ireland, nor was it the case in Great Britain, although arrangements for National Health Insurance differs somewhat in Great Britain. The cost of the medical certification in 1923-4 was £51,200. The money for medical certification is distributed each year amongst medical practitioners who enter into agreements with the Commissioners to furnish medical certificates in accordance with the scheme agreed to by the medical profession, and approved by the Minister for Finance. There is also a small provision for second medical opinions in doubtful cases. The average sum per member paid to the medical practitioners for certification was approximately two shillings and three pence.

It is proposed to meet that service and to defray the charge this year out of the various sources indicated in the Bill. However, it will not be necessary to find two shillings and three pence per member. The Insurance Commission have been in negotiation with the medical profession, and they have agreed to accept a reduction in remuneration until the 31st August next, which would give an average of two shillings per member as against two shillings and three pence. It is hoped that it will be possible to have that arrangement extended to the end of the year. Meantime steps are being taken to see if it will be possible for the Government to put forward any proposals in regard to reform and improvement, in whatever way it is found best, of the system of National Health Insurance.

Now, the Bill provides that 10d. per member shall be found out of the Benefit Fund of every approved Society in respect of each member. That is really the effect of Section 2 of the Bill. The financial basis of the Health Insurance Acts makes provision for six shillings and seven pence per insured member for charges other than sickness, disablement and maternity benefit. The charges hitherto against the Societies' fund were four shillings and ten pence for their own administration, one shilling and threepence for sanitorium benefit, four pence for administration of Insurance Committees—a total of six shillings, and five pence, leaving a margin of two pence. That margin arose out of the fact that only four pence per member is allowed for the administration of Insurance Committees, whereas there was actual provision for six pence. It is proposed to take that margin of two pence for purposes of medical certification. The societies have been allowed four shillings and ten pence per member for administration. The Insurance Commissioners have, by regulation, reduced the charge for the Societies' administration to four shillings and five pence from the 1st January last. That four shillings and five pence is the amount allowed for administration in Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and it is felt that the amount is sufficient for the cost of administration in the Saorstát.

The present weekly rates of contribution are 8d. and 7d. That is sufficient to meet the obligations of the societies under the Act, and leaves a margin of 3d. per member per annum. It would not be possible to reduce the contribution by even one farthing, shall we say, without reducing it below what is necessary. On the other hand, the existing contribution does leave this small margin of 3d. per member per annum. So that the 10d. is made up of the 2d. which already exists as a margin and is available for the benefit fund of the society; of 5d. by which it is proposed to reduce the amount allowed—by which, in fact, the Commissioners have already reduced the amount allowed to the societies for administration—and the extra 3d., which is the actuarial margin. That gives 10d. The remainder of the sum required—1s. 2d.—it is proposed to find by diverting money that arises from unclaimed contributions from the National Health Insurance Central Fund. The unclaimed balance in the Stamps Sales Account at the end of 1921, was £196,000 for all Ireland. The Free State share has not been apportioned yet, but it may be taken at £113,000. This is not, of course, entirely surplus, because it includes the value of stamps in the hands of the public and not affixed to contribution cards, and stamps on cards in the hands of societies or insured persons for which credit will ultimately be claimed. But something like, shall we say, £80,000 or £100,000 is definitely surplus. Certain people who have to be insured and who do not wish to apply for benefit, occasionally throw their cards into the fire. In such ways as that the surplus arises. At present it goes to the National Health Insurance Central Fund, which is a second line of defence for the societies. It can be called upon if a deficiency arises in the Contingencies Fund of a society, if the society can show that the deficiency was due to some special cause beyond their control, such as an epidemic of disease.

Under Section 27 of the National Health Insurance Act of last year a small proportion of this money was diverted from the Central Fund to recoup societies for keeping members in benefit who would otherwise have been suspended on account of arrears, but the amount so diverted will be comparatively small. This proposal to take the major part of the amount required for medical certification away from the Central Fund, can only be continued for a short period. It is as tually only for this year, or perhaps for another year, but it could not be continued indefinitely. It is really a temporary provision to meet the need for providing for medical certification until we have been able to look further into the whole question of the administration of National Health Insurance. It would be unwise and unsafe to continue to divert this particular revenue, as it were, from the Central Fund.

The effect of the proposal, taking a membership of 440,000, at 10d. per member, is that from the societies we get £18,340, and from the Stamp Sales Account, or from the portion of it attributable to unclaimed stamps, we get £25,670. In addition, there is the cost of second medical opinions, about £1,600, making a total of £45,610. As the money will in future be taken out of contributions and applied in defraying the expenses of administration, and not, as heretofore, provided by the Exchequer, it will attract the two-ninths State contribution provided for in Section 3 of the 1911 Act. Consequently the total of £45,610 required for medical certification will be distributed in the proportion of seven-ninths from Insurance Funds and two-ninths from the Exchequer. That is, the Insurance Funds will bear £35,480 and the Exchequer £10,130. The net saving to the Exchequer will be £35,480. The two-ninths of these various sums which will be taken from the societies and from the Central Fund will be recouped to the societies and to that Fund. That is, the societies will not really lose the 10d.; they will lose seven-ninths of the 10d. They will be responsible for paying the 10d., but the two-ninths of that amount will be recouped to them under the provisions of Section 3 of the 1911 Act. That is the principal provision in the Bill.

Section 5 of the Bill provides that the limitation in regard to soldiers, which prescribed that they should have been enlisted for a period not exceeding twelve months in order to get the benefit of the Act, is removed. We are now enlisting soldiers for longer periods. The provision which enables people to be kept on the books and not to be suspended because of arrears, which terminated on the 31st December last, is revived, and will continue till the end of 1925. As I have already said, there is a somewhat similar provision in Northern Ireland. The money is found in a rather different way from Insurance Funds, but it comes to the same thing in the long run. That is, that seven-ninths of the cost of medical certification is found from Insurance Funds, and during the past two years the societies had to find the greater part of the cost of medical certification, while in the Saorstát the entire expenses were borne by the Exchequer.

The Minister has, I think, given a good reason why the Dáil should not agree to the Second Reading of this Bill. The reason is that this is not a Bill which can possibly continue longer than this year, or possibly next year. The Minister has stated that the plan proposed in the Bill cannot be permanent. I presume the reason is because it is unsound actuarily. Nothing has been made known, no publication has reached the hands of the public, which would show that there has been any valuation, or any actuarial test, as to whether the societies can stand such a charge and remain sound. Everything that has been made available, information from one society or another, shows that the imposition of this new charge of 10d.— 5d. from the Administration Fund and 5d. in effect from Health Insurance Fund—cannot be borne, and leave the societies in a position to pay their obligations. The effect is likely to be that, at succeeding valuations 400,000 people, who are working people, will have to be levied to make up any deficit. It is another instance where the poor are going to be made bear the burden of the failure of the Exchequer. The Minister has spoken of the margins, 2d. on administration and sundry funds, and another 3d., but I think if he inquires further he will find that it will require these margins, in most cases, to enable the societies to pay their obligations. These are not margins that could be played with. The societies really require these margins to pay benefits that are statutory. It is only by assuming that the health conditions of the people here, that the charges upon the societies' funds are similar, or could be called indentical with the position in Great Britain, that this kind of calculation could be made. I venture to say it is not on account of any calculation made at this side of the Channel that the Minister has arrived at his conclusion. He has done so on account of a calculation made in Great Britain, and he assumes that the same reasoning can apply to Irish societies. I say there is no 5d. of a margin that could be spared out of the Health Insurance Fund, and, as a consequence, if you are going to take from the societies this 5d. to pay medical certification fees it simply means at a later period, having to call upon the individual members of the societies to meet the loss which this Bill is destined to impose.

The Minister has spoken of the Unclaimed Stamps Fund. That is, in fact, a fund which is part of the contributions of insured persons, and should not be distributed in this way. It should be available for health contingencies and not doctor's certificates. That fund should not be treated as one of the hen-roosts that has to be robbed. It is something to be maintained as a reserve upon which the societies could call in case of the emergency mentioned, such as a possible epidemic or an unexpected charge. The Minister is going to take that reserve and apply it for medical certification, leaving the societies in a worse position than they have ever been in.

As far as I can understand it, the position of the Minister is that he proposes to set up a Commission to inquire into the general incidence of this Health Insurance system, and then legislate upon the report that the Commission or Committee may make. I suggest that it should be after that Committee has reported that a measure of this kind ought to be brought forward. To deprive the Societies first of the five pence for administration, and secondly of the five pence for margins, which has always been required, taking the bulk of the Societies into account, to pay insurance obligations before you get the report on administration, and on the general incidence of the Insurance Acts, seems to me to be proceeding in the wrong way. If it is necessary for this year to act in accordance with this plan at all, or anything like it, I suggest that the procedure should be to borrow from this Unclaimed Stamps Fund and utilise the proceeds for this current year until the report has been received. The amount can be paid back, and it ought to be paid back. That Fund has been subscribed by insured persons for health purposes, and it ought not to be taken away in this manner. I think the case made on behalf of the Ministry for this change is not convincing, and that the Dáil should not agree to the Second Reading of this Bill.

Our attitude with regard to this Bill, and to all Bills under this particular heading, is distinctly hostile. Whatever service this class of Bill is to a city, or whatever support it has in the city, it certainly has no support from either employer or workman in the country. Neither wants it, and it is only wanted by the few people who draw salaries, and who are having a good time out of it. If you had a plebiscite in the morning with regard to National Health, I think you would have at least ninety per cent. or ninety-five per cent. of the people voting against the continuance of this Act. Outside of the officials connected with the societies nobody is in support of it, and I think the sooner the Government makes up its mind to scrap it the better it will be in the interests of the country.

I think from what Deputy Gorey has said that he does not know anything at all about the National Health Insurance Act, its working, or the benefit it is to people in the country. Certainly farmers, as well as other employers, try by every means in their power—at least certain sections of them do—to prevent the Act being worked and to prevent proper compliance with it, and they also try to make the workers believe that the Act is of no benefit to them. I claim to speak for my own part of the country, and I certainly say that the workers want the National Health Insurance Act; they want it improved, and they look to the Ministry to see that there is proper compliance with it. I am sure that if, as Deputy Gorey has said, there was a plebiscite to-morrow morning, you would have 95 per cent. in favour of it, instead of against it.

Deputy Gorey, I am afraid, went into the principal Act. I allowed Deputy Morrissey to reply to him, but we cannot have a discussion on the National Health Insurance Act in general.

I agree altogether with what Deputy Morrissey has said. I have been a member of the County Insurance Committee of the big County of Cork for a number of years, and I know the benefit that unfortunate workmen derive from the Act. The domiciliary treatment, for instance, is the greatest boon to the unfortunate people who suffer from consumption, and who cannot or do not like to be sent away to a sanatorium. These people get 10s. or 15s. worth of food a week, milk, eggs and other things, through the Insurance Act, that they could not get otherwise without the stain of pauperism. They do not like to go to the Board of Guardians or anywhere else; they simply take back what they paid to the insurance societies. and they have a claim to it. Everybody looked upon the Act as a fraud when it started; but it improves with age, and these poor people, when sick, have not to be looking to anybody for relief. They claim this as a right, and they get it, and I hold that the Insurance Act has been a great benefit—it has been a benefit to the farmers, too, if they only saw it.

Mr. HEFFERNAN rose.

We cannot allow further discussion on the general question of health insurance.

With regard to one part of the proposal, I admitted in my statement that it could only be a temporary expedient: that is, the taking of 1s. 2d. per member from the Unclaimed Stamps Account. That is only a temporary expedient, because that account would very soon be exhausted and a certain reserve on it, which is desirable and perhaps necessary for the safety of the societies, would be taken away. With regard to the 10d. which would be taken from the societies, I do not admit at all that that is a temporary expedient, or one which could not be continued. I see no reason at all why the societies here could not be administered as cheaply as the societies in Northern Ireland, where they are only allowed 1s. 5d. There may be societies which require the margin to which I referred, but that is generally the result of inefficient management or of a peculiar type of membership, or something like that. The societies in general can quite well afford to meet this particular charge of 10d. per member. I would remind Deputy Johnson of what I said in the beginning: that the societies in the Saorstát during the last two years have got over £70,000 from the Exchequer which they would not have got if the same provision only had been made here as was made in Northern Ireland. We are now putting them practically on a parity from the point of view of State aid with the societies in the North, and I think, in view of the state of affairs here, that we cannot afford to make contributions that are not made to societies that are situated in very similar circumstances.

Is it a fact that they are only drawing 2d. from the Health Insurance Fund in Northern Ireland societies instead of 10d.?

It comes to the same thing in the long run. They are taking in the North a sum from the interest account which we are not touching. What you lose on the swings is made up on the roundabouts. Anything taken from the Health Insurance Fund ultimately comes from the Benefit Funds of the Society. It makes no substantial difference. The reason we take anything from the interest funds is that the Health Insurance Fund has not been apportioned, and we do not know what surplus there is, and we do not know what the size of the fund from which we would be withdrawing a sum for medical certification is. In the North they have drawn from that fund, but we think that is not the wisest course.

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá. 32; Níl. 7.

  • Earnán de Blaghd.
  • Seoirse de Bhulbh.
  • Séumas de Búrca.
  • John J. Cole.
  • Louis J. D'Alton.
  • Máighréad Ní Choileáin Bean Uí
  • Dhrisceóil.
  • Osmond Grattan Esmonde.
  • Desmond Fitzgerald.
  • John Good.
  • William Hewat.
  • Seoirse Mac Niocaill.
  • Liam Mac Síoghaird.
  • Liam Mag Aonghusa.
  • John T. Nolan.
  • Peadar O hAodha.
  • Criostóir O Broin.
  • Seán O Bruadair.
  • Aodh O Cinnéidigh.
  • Partholán O Conchubhair.
  • Eoghan O Dochartaigh.
  • Séamus N. O Dóláin.
  • Peadar S. O Dubhghaill.
  • Pádraig O Dubhthaigh.
  • Eamon S. O Dúgáin.
  • Fionán O Loingsigh.
  • Pádraic O Máille.
  • James O'Mara.
  • Séamus O Murchadha.
  • Seán M. O Súilleabháin.
  • Caoimhghín O hUigín.
  • Seán Priomhail.
  • Liam Thrift.

Níl

  • John Daly.
  • Tomás Mac Eoin.
  • Tomás de Nógla.
  • Aodh O Cúlacháin.
  • Domhnall O Muirgheasa.
  • Tadhg S. O Murchadha.
  • Pádraig O hOgáin (Gaillimh).
Motion declared carried.
Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 10th June.
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