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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 13 Jun 1924

Vol. 7 No. 24

COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - FINANCIAL RESOLUTION NO 2.

I beg to move the following resolution:—

Where tax under Schedule A is charged in respect of a house or building or part of a house or building the annual value of which is ascertained according to the respective surveys and valuations from time to time in force for the purposes of poor rates, no allowances or deductions shall be made under paragraph (b) of sub-rule (1) of Rule 7 of No. V. of Schedule A of the Income Tax Act, 1918, or under Section 24 of the Finance Act, 1922, unless it is proved to the satisfaction of the special commissioners that the whole of the property in respect of which the tax is charged (in so far as it is not vacant) is bona fide let by the landlord or immediate lessor and that he has undertaken to bear the whole cost of repairs thereon.

It is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this resolution shall have statutory effect under the provisions of the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1913.

The object of this proposal is to remove an anomaly which exists in this country in regard to income tax on houses. It does not exist in England because there is a different system of valuation there but the effect of the law as it stands in this country is that where, say, a man in Dublin is a tenant of a house at £120 per annum the schedule assessment is £45, if the Poor Law valuation is £45, and the income tax at five shillings in the £ is £11 5s. If, however, the same individual purchased the house and remained in occupation as owner an allowance is given of one-sixth which is supposed to be for repairs, although there is of course an allowance for repairs in the poor law valuation on which the assessment is based. The result is that the tax in Schedule A is £37 10s. instead of £45 and the amount payable, instead of £11 5s., is £9 7s. 6d. That means that on the same house which is exactly of the same value there is this year a tax of £11 5s., but next year, because the house passes into the hands of a different owner, there will only be payable £9 7s. 6d. The thing is anomalous. There is absolutely no reason for it. It is unjust that on two houses, exactly identical in every particular, two different amounts of income tax have to be paid. The matter is of some importance financially as well as from the point of view of equity, in view of the way in which houses which formerly were let to tenants are now being purchased and occupied by the owners, owing to the housing shortage. Every day we find that allowances have to be made which were not previously made and the amount of the tax is reduced. The matter arises out of the conditions in Great Britain where the poor law valuation is not the basis of income tax, where there is a special valuation for income tax purposes and where the valuation is the full rental value of the house. As a matter of fact, in the sort of instance which I have indicated, in Great Britain the income tax would not be paid on the £45 which is the poor law valuation but on £120 less an allowance of one-sixth for repairs. This particular allowance affects only residences and shops. It affects urban houses only. It does not affect farmhouses or buildings on land which come under a different heading and which have not this allowance but another one.

I do not know whether the Minister is exactly right in stating that this is more or less or has been more or less a meaningless reduction. There was obviously a good reason for giving this reduction general application years ago. The object of it was this, that in our cities and in our urban areas we have too many tenancies and too few ownerships. In those tenancies there has been a desire to pay an inclusive rate to the landlord which includes taxes, with the result that the tenant has, or takes no interest at all in what you call local or city affairs, because he pays rent which includes his taxes, and whether the taxes are high or low is practically a matter of indifference to him. That is no good from the point of view of citizenship. We want all our citizens to take an active interest in the affairs of the city or urban area in which they reside. In order to get them to do that the State offered an encouragement to those who invest money and became owners of their dwellings, and that was really the object of this reduction. It only applies to owners here in occupation of the premises which they own. A reduction of one-sixth was given in the amount of the income tax. It was some encouragement and I think it is really, from the national point of view, not wise to withdraw it. That encouragement that was given is as essential to-day as it was years ago when it was first passed and the Minister has not told us the amount the Treasury loses or hopes to gain by the remission of this. Taking it as a whole I think it is a comparatively small one, and looking at it from the national point of view, I think it would be unwise to do away with the principle of encouraging tenants to become owners of their premises.

I do not think the Deputy is right in suggesting that this includes tax if he means income tax. I have known houses to be let but it was exclusive of income tax.

I am talking of local taxes. The point is this, whether the house is let at a rent inclusive of local taxes.

Quite right, rates. Where the house is set at a rent inclusive of rates it is quite obvious that a person need take no interest whatever. It is no matter what the rates are. He pays the same amount of inclusive rent. From the point of view of citizenship that is wrong. We should have a system whereby every tenant would pay his own rates.

That is the law.

Not in this country. If it is the law it is recognised more in the breach than in the form in which it is intended, but it is still new to me to know that it is the law in this country. Certainly in the cities and urban districts the great mass of our houses are let at a rent inclusive of rates. We want to encourage those who are anxious to invest money in houses and to become the owners of the houses in which they dwell, and this is one of your encouragements. What is the Minister going to say about the withdrawal of this encouragement?

Why did you not vote for the Town Tenants Bill?

I must disagree with Deputy Good that this allowance was made for such purpose. It was made to suit the conditions in England where the income tax was charged on a different basis, and where regard was not had to the conditions here. When a house is valued here there is a gross value assessed and then a reduction made for the estimated cost of repair. The net result is poorer valuation, which is considerably lower than the actual value of the house. The real point is that if you take a house it has a certain value.

There is no reason why its value should be estimated at less next year because it has passed into the ownership of another person. It is inequitable that on two houses standing side by side in the same street, exactly the same, more income tax should be charged on one house than on the other, simply owing to the chance working out of a law made to meet other conditions. As a matter of fact, from the point of view of income tax, there is already an encouragement for any person who has money to invest it in houses. Assume that a man has a thousand pounds in some investment, and that he gets £50 a year out of it. He will be charged income tax on the £50, but if he invested his thousand pounds in a house, and he will get a fairly good house at a Poor Law Valuation of, say, £25 or £30, he will only have to pay income tax on the valuation, whether it be £25 or £30. In such a case as that, the person making the investment escapes the payment of income tax on something like half the money he has put into the house by actually investing his money in the house. In that way I say there is a sufficient inducement to people to put money into houses, or to buy a house, if one can be got to buy. The real trouble in the country at the present time is that there are no houses to rent. Houses that can be rented are wanted very badly here. I do not think that we should discriminate at the present moment against the man who lets his house, because the position seems to be that no one will let a house if he can get anyone to buy it.

This seems to be an extraordinary way to bring forward this very important question raised by the Minister for Finance on this motion. We get an Order Paper to-day for the first time, and there is on it this motion which proposes to establish a principle that is going to wipe away a concession that has been in operation for a very long time. The proposal is to wipe away that concession without giving the matter due consideration, or, indeed, any examination at all. For years people have been getting this remission, but now it is proposed under this motion to wipe away the right to claim that remission. People have been counting on that remission for years, but if this motion is carried they will get it no longer. This motion which the Minister for Finance has put down is one with very farreaching implications, and in my opinion it should not be brought forward in this form. In my opinion, this is a matter that ought to be dealt with in the Finance Act in connection with the administration of income tax. It ought to be open to as full a discussion as possible, and without going into the merits of the case this is a thing that I say it is neither wise nor desirable to go on with. I presume that if we pass this to-day it will alter the Finance Act. If we adopt it, it will, in my opinion, be admitting a principle which the Dáil has not had time to consider or weigh in all fairness. The owner of a house, I understand, gets an allowance for repairs. From the information the Minister for Finance has given us, I could not very well understand what he was driving at in this motion. He made it quite clear, however, that he is out to search the hen-roost for more revenue. As far as income tax is concerned, it is already imposing a very heavy burden on the people. It seems to me that if this motion is carried it will have far-reaching effects from one end of the country to the other on people who own houses, and who in the past secured this allowance for the purpose of carrying out repairs. If the motion is passed it will wipe away that right altogether, and I do not think that is proper or just. I do not think there is any urgency in this matter. Is the urgency of the motion, I ask, due to the fact that so many houses have changed hands during the last two or three days? I do not think so, and, therefore, I suggest that there is no urgency about it at all. Whether the Minister is right in abolishing this remission is a matter for very grave consideration from every side of the Dáil, and so far Deputies have not had an opportunity of giving the matter any consideration at all. I for one am strongly opposed to the motion, and I do not think it ought to be proceeded with.

It is necessary in order to get a clause of this kind into the Finance Bill that there should be a resolution. If it had been brought forward not as a supplementary resolution but as one of the original resolutions there would not have been any more time at the disposal of the House to debate it. It was not introduced at that time because of the absence of the President and other members of the Cabinet in London in connection with the Boundary question, for some days before the financial resolutions were introduced. This resolution was examined by me but not by the other members of the Executive Council, and consequently I was not able to include it amongst the original resolutions. But it would come before the House in the same way then as now if introduced among the first resolutions. This will have to be debated in two ways. After this it will have to be brought in as an amendment to the Finance Bill and it will then be before the Dáil; it will have to be debated again when the Finance Bill is reported if it is thought desirable.

It introduces a measure of equality where there is no equality now in one particular aspect of the Income Tax Act. The burden of the income tax is very heavy, but it is not good that inequality should be maintained. It is quite possible that if we found ourselves able to reduce the income tax in general, in a substantial way, it might be necessary for us to go to the English system of charging income tax upon property. It might be necessary to have a special valuation of houses for income tax purposes, as in England, and to charge as there. However, that is a big matter and would require a great deal of consideration. The thing is that at present, day after day, we find ourselves faced with a demand for deduction which would increase the inequality which exists in this matter, and we do not wish that this deduction should be made continually, giving one house an advantage over another house exactly the same. That has become a much more serious thing in the last few years.

Will the Minister give us any figures of the amount of it?

I could not tell you.

I do not think it is fair to the House to put up these propositions without telling us exactly what the amount involved is. We are dealing now with finance and figures are everything in finance.

Well, occasionally, general principles are something in finance, too.

It seems rather unfair to my mind that this should be put upon people who have paid large sums of money for leases of houses. When they agreed to pay these large sums of money one of the concessions they expected was that this one-sixth of the valuation of the house would be deducted before they paid income tax upon it. These tenants have been paying that for years on the assumption that they repaired their houses themselves, and, now, apparently, this is to be totally swept away. I do not think that is fair to the people who bought their houses on the assumption that they were getting this deduction. It means on the average house about £3 of extra income tax upon people. It would mean considerably more to myself, or something more at all events, and I think it is not very fair, after I paid a certain amount on the lease on the assumption that I had this concession. I should now have this increased income tax put upon me.

The same argument would apply if the income tax was raised to 6/-. A person could say I bought a house because the income tax was so much; now it is 6/- and it is not fair to raise the income tax. I would ask the Minister if the same system were adopted as in England in the valuation of these properties, would that have the effect of getting more income tax from the owners of property?

Deputy Hewat said the effect of the resolution would be to wipe out the one-sixth allowance in respect of repairs. I want to know from the Minister does the passing of the resolution in its present form entail that?

It seems to me the proposal of the Minister is in the interests of justice and equality as far as he himself states, but it happens incidentally also, to be in the interests of the revenue. I think the pronouncement of the Minister himself will be very valuable for all parties as a precedent here when rectification of injustices come forward in which the revenue will not benefit by the equalising, but will rather lose. I think the Minister will be bound by the statement he has made here to give the same sanction to the rectifications of inequalities when they tend towards the reduction of the revenue as when they tend towards the increase of the revenue.

This will not affect the ordinary leaseholder, for it deals with Schedule A where the house is leased in the ordinary way. Further in reference to what Deputy Sir James Craig said, it is clear, as I pointed out, that by investing money in houses instead of in ordinary investments income tax is actually escaped: as a matter of fact, there are great anomalies in the law in that respect. I have been given cases of people receiving incomes of £500 a year from house property and they are actually paying no income tax at all, because the valuation of the particular property was so low. So that apart altogether from this unequal deduction, everything from the income tax point of view is in favour of the owner of the house.

With all respect this deduction only applies to a particular property occupied by persons paying income tax, and it is by reason of the occupation of that particular property that he is entitled to the refund of one-sixth on income arising out of such property.

He would, in certain cases, be entitled to a deduction of one-sixth if the rents were to be in any case less than one-sixth higher than the poor law valuation.

Question put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 45; Níl, 11.

  • Pádraig F. Baxter.
  • Earnán de Blaghd.
  • Seán Buitléir.
  • Seoirse de Bhulbh.
  • Próinsias Bulfin.
  • Séamus de Búrca.
  • Patrick J. Egan.
  • John Hennigan.
  • Liam T. Mac Cosgair.
  • Patrick McGilligan.
  • Seoirse Mac Niocaill.
  • Liam Mag Aonghusa.
  • Pádraig Mag Ualghairg.
  • Tomás de Nógla.
  • Martin M. Nally.
  • John T. Nolan.
  • Peadar O hAodha.
  • Criostóir O Broin.
  • Seán O Bruadair.
  • R. O'Connell.
  • Tomás O Conaill.
  • Eoghan O Dochartaigh.
  • Eamon O Dubhghaill.
  • Peadar O Dubhghaill.
  • Pádraig O Dubhthaigh.
  • Eamon O Dúgáin.
  • Risteárd O Maolchatha.
  • Aindriú O Láimhín.
  • Fionán O Loingsigh.
  • Séamus O Leadáin.
  • Domhnall O Muirgheasa.
  • Pádraig O hOgáin (Gaillimh).
  • Seán O Súilleabháin.
  • Louis J. D'Alton.
  • Desmond Fitzgerald.
  • David Hall.
  • Alasdair Mac Cába.
  • Tomás Mac Eoin.
  • Pádraig Mac Fhlannchadha.
  • Aodh O Cúlacháin.
  • Séamus N. O Dóláin.
  • Tadhg O Murchadha.
  • Pádraig O hOgáin (An Clár).
  • Caoimhghín O hUigín.
  • P.W. Shaw.

Níl

  • William Hewat.
  • Ailfrid O Broin.
  • Pádraig O hOgáin (Luimneach).
  • Sir James Craig.
  • John Good.
  • Seán de Faoite.
  • Connor Hogan.
  • James Sproule Myles
  • Seán O Laidhin.
  • Domhnall O Mocháin.
  • Liam Thrift.
Motion declared carried.

Is motion No. 3 opposed?

I do not know. It is a motion which merely deals with a decision given by the British courts in 1923. The practice from 1914 up to the time of that decision has been in accordance with the resolutions. In England in 1923 a decision was given which would make this necessary if the previous practice were to be continued, and if we were to assume that Irish courts, considering the matter, would be likely to take the same view as the English courts.

As I understand, other important business is to be taken at 2 o'clock and as it is near that hour surely it is unwise to enter on this business now?

I agree.

When will this matter be taken up again?

On Tuesday.

Will it be the first business on Tuesday?

Yes. I move that we report progress.

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