Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 17 Jul 1924

Vol. 8 No. 14

COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE No. 5.—MINISTRY OF FINANCE (RESUMED).

Mr. JOHNSON

When this matter was under discussion last week-end the question had been raised as to the position of civil servants, as to the means of access to the Ministry in matters affecting the service, and as to whether the Ministry were prepared to re-institute the Whitley Council system or something equivalent. I think in answer to a question yesterday the Minister said that there had been some consultations, and proposals were still being considered as to the method of such consultation and whether there should be any formal means of communication between representatives of the civil servants and the Ministry. It was pointed out, I think, by Deputy Bryan Cooper that a promise to give an answer within a fortnight was made last March.

I would press upon the Minister the necessity to make provision, or to make some arrangement, whereby civil servants can make representations through formal channels to the Ministry, and with whom Ministers would consult before they make changes. Everything that has been said in regard to the need for channels of communication and consultation in matters affecting the conditions of service in industry and commercial life can be said in regard to the Civil Service. I think it can be contended that a very great deal of success, not as much, perhaps, as was hoped by the enthusiasts, but, nevertheless, a great deal of success, has attended the establishment of this Council in the British Civil Service, and even in the Civil Service in Ireland before the Treaty. No real justification has been adduced, as far as I can gather, for the change. As a matter of fact promises were made, at the institution of the Provisional Government, that similar facilities would be continued, but nothing has been done, and there is undoubtedly a very great deal of irritation and a feeling of no confidence in the minds of civil servants in regard to the attitude of the Ministry touching their conditions. I say quite seriously and earnestly to the Ministry that they ought to reestablish, in either the old form or some amended form, the Whitley Council so that there could be a practical means of communication and consultation and conference, before decisions are arrived at, with the representatives of the staff.

Now in respect to non-established officers—"temporaries," as they are called, some of whom, by the way, have been temporary for many years, a technical expression which takes some time to get accustomed to—I understand the number of temporaries is about equal to the number of permanents and that some of these temporaries have been temporaries for many years. But a great many of them have served for 2, 3, 4, and 5 years, and the position of having a very large number of temporary Civil Servants is not satisfactory. There should be a time beyond which, having proved their ability to do the work, they should enter upon the permanent establishment. Another consideration which I would press upon the Ministry is that there are examinations for Civil Servants being conducted. Considerable numbers of youths are entering for these examinations and one is forced to ask whether the fact that these youths are being examined or that ex-army men are being examined for entrance upon the Civil Service, will mean the disbandment or dismissal of the temporary men. I would say to the Minister that experience of say 3 or 4 years in the work of the Civil Service should count against very high marks in examinations, and that, where men have gone through that period and given anything like satisfaction they should not be lightly dismissed, and that they should not be dismissed to make room for juniors or to make way for boy clerks. But if it is contended that you must have men who have gone through examinations, that there is something of extraordinary value in having an examination, as against experience, then I say that the temporary Civil Servants should be encouraged to go in for these examinations, and that a very large proportion of the marks required should be given for service as distinguished from ability to pass examinations.

I believe, and most people in the world of affairs will confirm that contention, that experience in an office is of very much more value than ability to pass examinations. If they could pass examinations first, and then add the experience, no doubt, you have a further advantage, but that further advantage ought not to be purchased at the expense of the dismissal of experienced men to make way for youths just now entering upon life.

There are two other matters in respect to the Civil Service to which I wish to call attention, and I think I had better do it on the general question. It has been represented to me that there are a number, I do not know how great a number, of men who have taken advantage of the Treaty and retired on pensions, who would be willing if they saw that there was an invitation, or that they would be welcomed, to reenter the Service. I do not know what the attitude of the Ministry would be to such persons, but I think, unless there is a very strong objection, it is a reasonable way to meet the financial situation, to some little extent, and I would invite the Minister to give us his view upon that question. I want also to deal with a matter which has caused a good deal of trouble, and that is the action of the Income Tax Commissioners, but perhaps I should reserve that for the next Vote.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Yes, that will arise on the Inland Revenue Vote.

Mr. JOHNSON

I will raise it, then, when the Vote comes on, but I will ask the Minister to tell us now, as near as he can, what decisions have been come to, if any decisions have been come to, and if they are favourable in regard to the civil servants, and if they are not favourable not to state them for fear he might be bound to adhere to them, and to tell us he will reconsider any unfavourable decisions, and do something, at least, to minimise and reduce considerably the irritation and dissatisfaction that has been aroused throughout the Civil Service.

The PRESIDENT

On the last day Deputy Johnson and Deputy Cooper raised a question about the Whitley Council. With regard to it, its history is something like this: In 1919, following the report of the Whitley Committee recommending the setting up in industries of bodies representative of employers and employees for the purpose of settlement of trade disputes, the British Government introduced for the Civil Service a machine similar in principle to the Whitley Industrial Committees. A body known as the National Whitley Council was set up, consisting of an equal number of representatives appointed by the staff and by the Government. It had very wide powers and functions, including the power of determination of general matters including remuneration, conditions of service, etc. The National Whitley Council could only arrive at a decision by unanimous agreement between the two sides, official and staff, and when it did arrive at an agreement the Government undertook that the agreement would become operative automatically. The Council, in one case, arrived by agreement on a scheme of reorganisation for the Civil Service as a whole, introducing improved scales of salaries and a new scheme for calculating bonus on Civil Service salaries, etc. In addition to the National Whitley Council representative of the whole service and dealing with general service matters, the Whitley machine included Departmental Councils consisting of an equal number of representatives appointed by the head of the Department and by the staff serving in the Department whose functions related to purely Departmental matters, such as the remuneration of Departmental classes, and here again the decision could only be by agreement. When a decision by agreement was arrived at. it became operative immediately. This Council and the Departmental Councils are without prejudice to the authority of Parliament. At the time of the setting up of the National Whitley Council the Irish Civil Service pressed for a National Council for Ireland, independent of the National Whitley Council in London. This request was refused, but there was set up in Dublin an Irish Civil Service Joint Council which had no functions of decision, but which was empowered to advise the National Whitley Council in London on purely Irish matters, or particular Irish aspects of general service questions.

Immediately after the change of Government a staff deputation saw the late General Collins and myself and pressed for the creation, in the Free State, of a National Whitley Council and Departmental Councils similar to those in being under the British administration. The late General Collins decided at that early date that he could not commit the Government to that particular proposal, but he agreed that so far as the Departments in Dublin had Departmental Councils already they could continue pending the decision of the Government, but the question whether the Free State would have any such bodies and with such powers as were given in the British Civil Service was reserved. This continuous pressure has been kept up, and some months ago, it appears, the Minister for Finance received a deputation from the Civil Servants forwarding their representations. The Minister indicated his views to the deputation that he did not consider it was either desirable or necessary to have in the Free State Civil Service bodies such as the Whitley bodies. Reference was made to the machine used in the police forces, namely, the Police Representative Council, which provides the police with a definite mouthpiece for putting forward their views on questions affecting conditions of service, and also for giving the police an opportunity of expressing their views on any proposal of the Government which may affect their conditions of service. The Minister indicated that he was most anxious that there should be created for the Civil Service some such body which could bring before the Minister for Finance, and in that way before the Executive Council any representations the staff desired to make affecting their conditions of service.

The Minister asked the deputation to consider, and put forward proposals on these lines. On the 6th January, the representatives of the Civil Service replied putting forward again the British Whitley machinery as the only suitable machinery. The Minister received a further deputation on the 29th February, and indicated again his view that he did not consider the Whitley machinery desirable or suitable for the Saorstát Civil Service. He promised to prepare a draft of the arrangements which he considered suitable, and to meet the representatives again to discuss the draft. The draft arrangements for the future have been prepared but before communicating them to the staff it is understood that the Minister wished to mention the matter to the Executive Council. The staff have been pressing continuously since March for that draft. The substance of the point at issue between the staff and the Ministry is that the staff want bodies to be created which will have power of determining various things including remuneration.

Mr. JOHNSON

Determining!

The PRESIDENT

Yes.

Mr. JOHNSON

I thought they asked for the Whitley Council, which does not pretend to determine.

The PRESIDENT

If there be agreement in that case the Executive Council and the Dáil would be in the hands of these people, as the agreement determines itself. It has to be put into operation without delay. Now the Ministry are not prepared to give any bodies, other than bodies of a consultative and advisory character, the power of decision being in all cases reserved to the Minister. It is true that the Whitley bodies can only arrive at decisions by agreement, and the official representatives on the bodies can always prevent a decision by refusing to agree. But it is not right that Ministers should divest themselves of their powers and responsibilities by leaving it to such bodies to say what salaries will be payable in the Civil Service or not. What the staff should have, and what the Ministry is prepared to give, is every facility for making known its views on matters affecting the Civil Service, and for considering Governmental proposals affecting the Civil Service, and giving their views on such proposals before the Government finally confirms a proposal into a decision. It has not been possible for the Executive Council to consider the matter so far. It will be admitted, I think, that the work of the last three or four months has prevented that, and the Minister's health in addition must also be taken into consideration. I am informed that the Minister, just before his illness, was on the point of bringing this matter before the Executive Council.

Mr. JOHNSON

I would seriously suggest to the President that he should deal with this matter himself. I do not think there is anything in the suggestion that the Minister has put forward, that the staffs should determine the rates of pay. I do not think that is the proposal, nor do I think it is the business or the function of a Whitley Council to do that. I think there is misunderstanding on that point.

The PRESIDENT

I hope that is the case, but so I am informed. I do not think it would be possible for me, certainly within the next month or two, personally to take up this matter. I would prefer that the Minister himself would take it up on his return. I should think that he will be returning to duty somewhere about the end of August, and in view of the fact that he has had so many conferences and consultations with deputations on the matter, I think he should deal with it himself. I should say that even a month's delay in the case might be worth while waiting for. With regard to the second question raised by Deputy Johnson, the details are given in the Vote for the Ministry of Finance. The third sub-head deals with salaries, wages and allowances, and it will be observed from that that the temporary clerical staff absorbs a very considerable amount, almost £9,000. They are mainly engaged on compensation work, and the value of that work I freely admit is very great and very important. I should say that there is not a very considerable number of youths entering the Civil Service. The bulk of the men who entered lately have been Army men, and no examination for boy clerks has been held, nor, I understand, is it even contemplated to hold one. As far as I know, there is no intention of dismissing temporary civil servants. There is, I believe, under consideration at the moment an examination confined partly to temporary civil servants. Such examinations have been held for women who were temporary clerks. I do not exactly subscribe to what Deputy Johnson said, that a number of years' experience in an office should qualify for a large number of marks. I admit that experience in an office is of great advantage, but I think that great care should be exercised in not allotting too large a number of marks for such service. I speak in that connection from experience in another institution with which I was associated for a number of years, where the best results were got from examinations. There is not, to my knowledge, any desire to deal harshly with temporary civil servants, but there is a desire, if they pass an examination, to place them on the permanent staff.

Mr. DARRELL FIGGIS

I would like to add my request to that of Deputy Johnson that some inquiry be made of the President as to the scope and functions of a Whitely Council in regard to financial matters. I have had a matter that has been under the attention of the President and the Minister for Finance brought before me, and as I understand the case, I thought there would be no room for misunderstanding. All that was asked for was a consultative council. I will give the case which was represented to me. It was a question of hours, and my informant on that matter stated that if a consultation had been taken with the Service in regard to recent changes of hours while giving the same number of hours in the week with a different adjustment of them, the result would have been just as satisfactory from the point of view of economy and of much greater content among the personnel of the Service, with the consequent result of higher efficiency in the quality of the work produced. It is quite clear that any officer responsible directly to the Minister in a matter of this kind sitting down and working out a schedule, may work out a schedule that may be quite excellent and admirable from his own point of view, but which might not be anything like that which he himself would recommend to the Minister or which the Minister might be inclined to enforce if once the entire Service was engaged in consultation with regard to the advisability of two or three different forms of schedule. That is only one case. There are infinitely more complex cases arising in the Service where a certain amount of friction unquestionably exists which may be removed if there were somebody directly responsible and elected by the Service with whom the Minister, as the final person responsible to the Dáil for this Service, could get into consultation, and devise the least frictionable and least objectionable form of administration that could be devised. These things experience has taught, not only in the Service, as every employer also knows that these things could not be obtained except as the result of consultation. I fail to understand the President's reference to a decision by a Council of this kind respecting wages and salaries and any matters of financial adjustment. Obviously they lie at the disposal of the Minister responsible to this House and cannot be parted with. I venture to say, with Deputy Johnson, that something has gone wrong with the sources of information. As I understand the matter, and I have gone into it with a certain amount of care with those entitled to speak for the Service, that is not their demand.

Mr. JOHNSON

The Minister's plan, according to the statement made by the President, was that a council should be set up and it should be authorised to make representation. I want the President to think of the situation that is created if the purpose of such council is confined to making representations of that kind. The staff does not make any representations in regard to the beginning or end of its day, or the extension of the day, but the Minister comes forward with a decree and says that after a certain date these shall be the hours.

The PRESIDENT

In that connection the particular body he wished to set up is a body to which he would refer any such proposal as that, and can be in consultation with them before finally deciding.

Mr. JOHNSON

That is the point I want to make; that if there were such a body, there would be complete understanding before changes are made. I understand with a fair amount of authority that if there had been a conference when such a suggestion was made, there might have been a more generous offer from the staff than an extra half-hour.

Major COOPER

I think it will be evident to anybody who heard the President's statement and who read the letters written to Deputies on behalf of the civil servants that there seems to be a gigantic misunderstanding that ought to be cleared up, but it can only be cleared up by establishing machinery that will enable the civil servants' organisation to come into direct touch with the Minister for Finance. I believe that the Minister wants to be absolutely fair. I am sure that if he could get into touch with civil servants and know what they mean, he will do his best for them. I am not satisfied with the President's suggestion of a council such as exists in the Police Force. I do not think it would meet the case. Such council worked fairly well in the Police Force, but that is largely because the terms of enlistment are generous and because on the part of the departments concerned there is a desire to make them work well. Such councils were set up by the British Government after the war as to rates and conditions that should be recommended, but their failing was due to the fact that the Admiralty took no notice of them. It entirely depends on the spirit of those at the head of affairs whether such bodies which have no statutory rights are of very much value. I hope that the President, even before the Minister for Finance returns, will go into this question again and realise that the men in the civil service are men who for the most part transferred their service to Ireland because they loved their country and wished to serve it rather than claim their rights under the Treaty.

There is an obligation on the State to deal with them in a manner so that their discontents will be removed. As regards temporary Civil Servants, many of them are being discharged, but I think it would be better to discuss their position under the respective Votes under which they come rather than under this Vote. When it comes to turning them out it should be remembered that many of them are men with families who have been in the employment of the State for three or four years, and to whom the State has some duty and they should not be turned out to be replaced by boys of seventeen or eighteen years of age who are put on the permanent staff because they have passed an examination.

The PRESIDENT

There has been no examination for Boy Clerks, nor is there one in contemplation.

Major COOPER

I am glad to hear it but there will have to be one some time, or recruitment for the Civil Service will fall off and the export trade in intelligence will be stimulated.

Mr. T. O'CONNELL

I want to refer to a number of public servants who were suspended from duty because of their alleged activities in connection with the trouble that arose two years ago in the country. Many of those men were suspended from duty. Some of them were arrested and interned and were released after shorter or longer periods of internment without any charge whatsoever being brought against them. They have not been restored to their positions and they have not been paid any salary, and many of them have been for a considerable time now awaiting some decision as to what their future is to be. It is only seven months since a committee was set up to investigate the cases of these public servants. I think that there is every reason to complain that there has been very great delay in coming to a decision on those cases. The procedure adopted, I am afraid, is exceedingly cumbersome and in any case, for some reason or another, there has been great delay. I may say some of them are not only Civil Servants but teachers also. Some of them went back to work immediately after being released from internment and are working in the schools in the ordinary way for the last fourteen or fifteen months. They received no payment of any kind because of an order issued by the Minister for Finance. I think it is most unfair that this investigation should be dragged out the length it has been dragged out, and that these people should be so long without knowing what their position is to be.

There is no doubt whatsoever that practically all of them are people who were arrested and interned merely on suspicion and against whom no charge can properly be sustained. I would suggest to the Minister that it would be a wise policy on the part of the Government if they simply reinstated all those men who were prepared to give faithful work to the State. It is time, I think, when things which happened two years ago might very well be forgotten, or overlooked to a great extent, and I think if the Government were satisfied that those people were prepared to discharge their duties faithfully to the State, and I believe that would be the case so far as the vast majority of those are concerned, they should have no difficulty whatsoever in reinstating them in their positions. I believe it would be to the advantage of the Government themselves and the country if they would not leave those people with grievances or cause of grievance. Undoubtedly several of them were arrested purely on suspicion. Some of them, perhaps, may have taken part indirectly in the trouble at the time but I think it is not a wise policy on the part of the Government to be too punctilious investigating to the last possibility any part which was taken then. They should be satisfied now, in view of the changing circumstances in the country, if those people are prepared to give faithful service.

The PRESIDENT

I admit there has been a delay but it could scarcely be avoided. In addition to the illness of one or two of the members forming this particular Committee there has been another delay within the last week or a fortnight which could not have been possibly foreseen. With regard to what the Deputy said about giving a clean sheet to those people and about no charge having been made against them, I may say it has not been for the want of charges that could have been made. The Deputies here will recollect that the fact of having such a large number of prisoners as 10,000 shows that there was, prima facie, a big case against somebody. It has not been made, I admit, but that there is grave culpability I think no one will deny. This Committee formed to deal with them was perhaps the easiest Committee it was possible to get through. It was composed of very generously-minded men and I think they would be prepared, if they were satisfied that what Deputy O'Connell says is correct, to stretch a point and they would recommend that faults should be overlooked.

I am not so sure that what he says about changed conditions in the State would justify us to that extent. I have had reports of persons drawing money from this State—money that we have to make economies for in order to make available. I know there are such people in the country doing their very best to undermine the foundations of the State. While we are at all times prepared to give generous consideration to persons who have given offence, it is not a matter of free will how you are to exercise your generosity in those cases. Deputies know that evidence in favour of those who support the State is always available. Many persons have been prosecuted, and are serving terms of imprisonment. You must weigh up the sufferings of those people in those cases with the blank cheque you are to give, in the first place for not prosecuting such persons, and secondly for giving them positions which will be paid for out of public funds. While admitting that a generous act is a great thing, we must at the same time consider justice in the matter. I will, before the Appropriation Bill is got through, let the Deputy know how this case stands.

Mr. ESMONDE

I would like to know whether the salaries mentioned under sub-head A include the salaries of loaned officials. If they are not in that Estimate, in what Estimate will we find those salaries?

The PRESIDENT

To some extent they are there, and to some extent they are under sub-head E.

Mr. O'CONNELL

I raised one small matter here last year in Section 3, which includes the Teachers' Pension Office. I suggested that the Government should look into the question of paying these pensions monthly, and the President, who was Minister for Finance at the time, agreed to have the matter examined. I have heard nothing since about the matter. I would like to know whether the President is in a position to say there has been any examination of that question. The pensions paid teachers are, as the President knows, exceedingly small, but they are rendered very much smaller and less advantageous by the fact that they are payable quarterly.

The PRESIDENT

I was informed that the cost of monthly payment would be considerable. I do not know how that can be the case, because the number of pensioners cannot be very large. If the Deputy would accept another promise, I would undertake to look into the matter again.

Mr. ESMONDE

Under sub-head A there is provision for Messenger, Cleaner and Protective Force Services at a cost of £1,760. There is no explanation given of that item, but I find in the Vote which we discussed yesterday (Executive Council) provision for Messengers, Cleaners and Protective force at £800. There is a footnote to that Estimate stating "The figure given represents the share to be borne on this Vote for the salaries, wages, etc., of the entire Staff of Messengers, Cleaners and Protective Force employed in the Government Buildings in Upper Merrion Street." It seems to me rather confusing that each Department should have a special Protective Force Vote. I do not know exactly what that Force is, or whether it is a unified Force, but I think it ought to be under one Estimate.

The PRESIDENT

The reason why there are separate items is a simple one. The various offices are situated in buildings known as Government Buildings. I take it that the number of rooms has been counted, and that the cost of messengers, cleaners, and the body in question—the Protective Force—is apportioned according to the accommodation provided. The Executive Council, with my offices, occupy the greater part of one wing, and to that extent the accommodation there may exceed that occupied by the Ministry of Finance, so that the proportion borne on the Executive Council Vote would be larger than that on the Ministry of Finance.

Mr. ESMONDE

It is much smaller.

The PRESIDENT

I do not know exactly what the accommodation of the Ministry of Finance is at the moment. At one time it occupied one floor, and it may have got portion of another floor since. The Executive Council offices were at that time upstairs, and I think up to last year the Ministry of Finance occupied the rooms I have. As regards the Protective Force, that is a body which was brought into existence during the war period, and they act as directors of persons who want to get to particular offices. They identify persons coming in, and are of general use around the building. On a couple of occasions we had information that an attempt would be made to rush the building. These people have particular knowledge of the class of persons who might indulge in an experiment of that kind, and as identity is one of the most important matters in military operations, the Deputy will admit that this particular force is about the most suitable one we could have.

Mr. CONLAN

I wish to ask would it be competent for me to raise a question on this Vote with reference to the Barrow Drainage?

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

I am afraid not.

Mr. CONLAN

Would I have an opportunity of raising it on the Drainage Bill?

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

I am afraid not. It does not seem to arise on this Vote, and I am afraid it does not arise either on the Committee Stage of the Drainage Bill.

The PRESIDENT

I think it would come under the Board of Works Vote.

Mr. WILSON

The reason Deputy Conlan thinks it might arise on this Vote is because the Minister for Finance has turned down proposals in connection with this matter. He concluded that on the Ministry of Finance Vote he would have an opportunity of questioning the right of the Minister to turn down these proposals.

The PRESIDENT

I do not think that is exactly correct. The Minister for Finance has not had a definite proposal put before him that he could turn down. There are proposals at present under the consideration of the Ministry of Industry and Commerce. The Minister for Finance may have turned down a particular scheme, but he did not turn down the Barrow Drainage.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

It would carry us very far, the Deputy will see if every proposal turned down by the Minister for Finance could be discussed on this particular Vote. We discussed yesterday the Executive Council Vote with which the Minister for Finance was concerned to a very considerable extent. Possibly he could have been indicted then, when we were carrying on a general indictment, but I am afraid it is too late now. The Minister for Industry and Commerce would, I think, be glad to answer a question on that matter when the Vote for his Department comes on. He has already spoken on this question.

Question put, and agreed to.