Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 24 Jul 1924

Vol. 8 No. 19

COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 34—GENERAL PRISONS BOARD.

MINISTER for JUSTICE (Mr. O'Higgins)

I beg to move:—

That a sum not exceeding £122,885 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the expenses and charges which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, to defray the expenses of the General Prisons Board and of the establishment under their control, the registration of habitual criminals and the maintenance of criminal lunatics confined in district mental hospitals (17 and 18 Vict., c. 76; 34 and 35 Vict., c. 112, s. 6; 40 and 41 Vict., c. 49; 47 and 48 Vict., c. 36; 61 and 62 Vict., c. 60; 1 Edw. VII, c. 17, s. 3; 8 Edw. VII, c. 59; and 4 and 5 Geo. V, c. 58.)

Deputies will note that the Estimate represents a decrease of £40,746 on last year's Estimate.

Sub-head A—Salaries, Wages and Allowances.—The estimated expenditure under this sub-head shows an increase of £1,024, compared with the Estimate for the year 1923-24. The increase is due, in the first instance, to the appointment of a member of the Board at a salary of £740 a year and increased provision for bonus rendered necessary by the increased cost-of-living figure on which the bonus for the year is based. The expenditure on this sub-head has been falling owing to the fall in the cost-of-living figure and the non-filling of the post of Inspector (£500 to £600) and the agent for discharged prisoners (£75). The number of established employees on the 1st April was 13, and the number of unestablished employees 9, as compared with 12 established and 13 unestablished on the 1st April, 1922 —an increase of 1 in the established ranks and a decrease of 4 in the unestablished ranks.

Sub-head B—Travelling.—There is a reduction of £100 on this sub-head. Although the Estimate for the past few years was below the figure in the present Estimate, that is explained by the fact that the normal inspection of prisons was not possible within the last three or four years, and that normal inspection has now been re-started. Each prison is now inspected and reported upon at least once every two months. The incidental expenses which are provided for under this sub-head include a supply of newspapers, photo chemicals, carriage on parcels and matters of that kind.

Sub-head C—Pay and Allowances of Officers, including Uniform.— This sub-head shows a decrease of £11,120. The number of permanent warders provided for is 152, an increase of 3, as compared with the figure of last year. The explanation of that is that vacancies in the post of farm steward and engineers had not been filled. The sum provided for uniforms shows a reduction of £580, due to reduction in cost of uniform material and to the manufacture of uniforms by prison labour. Reductions of £720 and £250 have been made under the provision for allowance to officers in lieu of quarters.

Sub-head D — Victualling.—These figures are based on an estimated prison population of 1,600. They are based also on the approximate cost per head of each civil prisoner for the previous year. It is felt that a smaller sum than the sum mentioned in the Estimate would not be sufficient. The excess over last year's Estimate and the Estimate for 1922-23 is due to the cost of maintaining prisoners classed as "military prisoners," in receipt of special diet in civil prisons. It is hoped that the necessity for maintaining such prisoners will not arise during the current year, and that we will be able to defray the cost of maintenance of civil prisoners within the limits of the provisions that have been made.

Sub-head E—Clothing, Bedding, Furniture, etc.—This sub-head shows a reduction of £500 on that of previous years. The expenditure is necessitated by reason of damage and destruction of prison property by persons confined in civil prisons under military control and classed as "military prisoners." The expenditure under this sub-head was high while conditions of that kind prevailed, but it is hoped that during the year 1924-25 the destruction will have been made good and complete renewals supplied to all the prisons within the amount provided.

Sub-head F—Medicines, Surgical Instruments, etc.—Under this sub-head there is a decrease of £100, which is based on the requisitions of the medical officers of the various prisons, and it is considered that the amount asked will be adequate.

Sub-head G—Fuel, Light, Water, Cleaning Articles, etc.—This is the same as last year's estimate. It is felt that the provisions made will suffice, if none of the prisoners classed as "military prisoners" are committed to civil prisons and if the prisons are entirely under civil control.

Sub-head H—Rent, etc.—The Prisons Board pay rent for various properties on which prisons are built, and it has been arranged that in cases of prisons like Clonmel, taken over by the military, the Board of Works will repay the rent, in which case the sub-head will be credited with any receipts. But provision has been made for all rents that are properly payable.

Sub-head I—Escort and Conveyance. —There is a reduction of £2,000 for escort and conveyance of prisoners. It is probably due to the normal functioning of the courts and the activities of the Gárda Síochána. The estimate is the lowest that could be arrived at on that sub-head. It can only be an approximation.

Sub-head J—Ordinary Repairs.— There is a decrease of £1,500 under the provision made last year. Owing to the conditions prevailing in the prisons during 1923-24, a very small portion only of the necessary maintenance work is carried out. It is to be remembered that since the outbreak of the European War normal maintenance of prisons was not carried out. Only unavoidable works were entered upon, with the result that expenditure under this sub-head must for a few years be above previous figures, in order to bring the prisons up to the standard that is properly required.

Sub-head K.—This is a new sub-head under which provision is made for cost of wilful destruction of public property, which took place in practically all the prisons where prisoners classed as "military prisoners" were confined. The expenditure for 1923-24 exceeded the estimate by approximately £2,000, due to the fact that when the estimate was framed a certain amount of destruction had taken place and was provided for. Subsequently, still more destruction took place, and but for the fact that the Clerk of Works was able to arrange for restoration work being carried out, in the main, by prison labour, the cost in this estimate would have been even heavier than it was.

Sub-head L—Fine Fund, seems to be purely nominal.

Sub-head M—Travelling and Incidental Expenses show a reduction on last year of £450. The expenditure includes travelling, removal for temporary duty, and separation allowances to prison officers, burial of deceased prisoners, and expenses which are not provided for under other sub-heads.

Sub-head M.M—Telegrams and Telephones, is a new sub-head, and the expenditure estimated for indicates a probable reduction of £50 on last year.

Sub-head N—Maintenance of Children of Female Prisoners.—There was no child maintained during the year 1923-24; provision has been made for the maintenance of one child for the current year. Of course, it can only be an estimate.

Sub-head O—Maintenance of Criminal Lunatics in District Mental Hospitals.—With regard to this sub-head, the expenditure really does not come within the control of the Prisons Board and is placed on the Prisons Vote in consequence of an error in the drafting of an Act passed in 1901—the Lunacy Act. The Board have repeatedly made representations that this is not a proper charge to place on the Prisons Vote and at one time a Bill was actually introduced to effect the change, but was not put through to its conclusion. It is a matter that might, perhaps, be looked into administratively in future. What I want to stress is that the estimate under this sub-head is not within the control of the Prisons Board.

Sub-head P—Gratuities to Prisoners. —Expenditure under that sub-head is affected by the numbers discharged each year. Since the outbreak of the European war committals were fewer; consequently discharges were limited, and the expenditure figure was somewhat smaller.

Sub-head Q—Contributions to Discharged Prisoners' Aid Societies, is a small estimate of £150. It is, I think the same amount each year. Certainly it is the same as last year's amount. It is an expenditure for a grant of £50 to the Discharged Female Prisoners Aid Society, Henrietta Street, and a grant to the Borstal Association in respect of inmates discharged from Borstal Institutes.

Sub-head R—Appropriations in Aid. —These Appropriations represent receipts from the sale of old stores, rents of cottages, excess of receipts over payments in the manufacturing department. The large amount of Appropriations in Aid realised for 1923-24 is due to the fact that sums amounting to £4,099 were received from the Government of the Northern Area in respect of the maintenance of Borstal inmates from that area maintained in the Borstal institutions, and also to the fact that the activity of the Governor of Mountjoy Prison resulted in an unprecedented output in the manufacturing department of that prison. Mats, prisoners' clothing, cell furniture, and so on, were made there.

Deputy Johnson proposes to raise, I think, on this Estimate rather than on the adjournment the question of the condition of cells where prisoners sentenced to death are detained in Mountjoy. Perhaps it would be a more proper course if I let the Deputy make his point before giving such information as I have at my disposal with regard to it.

Mr. JOHNSON

The matter I wished to raise on the adjournment is better taken now while the Minister is present. Information came into my hands this morning dealing with men who, unfortunately, are under sentence of death, and it is necessary that if the matter is to be raised it should be raised at once. I understand that in the past there have been special regulations enforced in respect of prisoners condemned to death. A special large airy and bright cell was allocated, equal in size to three ordinary cells. There was also a prison officer in the cell with the prisoner. Consequently it is necessary, in addition to the special brightness and airiness of the cell, to have a larger cell for two persons to occupy instead of one. Two officials were in charge—one by night and one by day. The officials were allowed to rest four and a half hours alternately. A change has taken place under the new regime, presumably in the interests of economy. Possibly it may be said that it is because of the fact that there are more persons under sentence of death than has been known before, and that no preparation for such large numbers—excessive numbers, unfortunately—have been made.

The information I have is that these condemned prisoners are placed in a small ordinary cell, with an officer in charge night and day. The cells have only sufficient cubic space for one person, and all the regulations of the prison—medical and otherwise—are against more than one person occupying such a cell. Two persons have to occupy it now, and that practically means that an official is confined in the cell with the prisoner ten hours consecutively. If I gather the information aright that is the position. If it is so. I think it is bad for the official and bad for the prisoner. It is irritating and certainly, as I would think, inhuman to place any official, on the one hand, in charge of a prisoner under sentence of death for so long a time. And, even worse, perhaps, to place the condemned person in such a position as to be in view of the same officer for so long a time. It seems to me that the conditions of the past were probably the result of very long experience, and had at least, improved in the direction of humanising the last days or hours of a condemned man. We ought not to lower that standard, and I would ask that some attention be paid to this matter immediately.

To come to the general Vote, there are two or three matters I would like to draw attention to. The first is to ask a question. Is it intended that there should be an appointment of a chairman of the Prisons Board? For the vice-chairman £1,000 yearly is estimated, but there is a blank space against the name of the chairman, whose normal pay would be £1,200 a year, presumably with bonus. For a considerable time there has not been a chairman, and I would like to have an assurance from the Minister that there is no need and no necessity, and that it is not the intention to fill this office.

Under sub-head (d) the Minister pointed out that there was an estimated population of 1,600. Taking into account £31,000 for victualling, I calculate that comes to 7s. 6d. per week per person. I hope the Minister will consult with the Minister for Local Government and other Ministers and compare the 7s. 6d. per week per person for rations purchased at wholesale prices with the cost of living outside. I recognise that a family outside is assumed to consist of two adults and three children. At 7s. 6d. per week for a prisoner on prison fare find out what is the cost for the ordinary civilian and hence what ought to be paid, under the Local Government Department and other Departments, in wages? I will assume it is not the expectation of the Ministry that the civilian living outside would live on the same low standard that is allocated for prisoners living on ordinary prison fare.

I would ask the Minister to consider the position, or rather, shall I say, to take some pains to find out the relations of the officers of the Prisons Board to Governors and the establishment generally, and how those relations compare with the relations of the officers to the Board hitherto. From correspondence that I received I gather that there is a very keen sense of dissatisfaction with the way in which the work has been administered, particularly in regard to the little irritants, which the officers have been made to suffer. I would like to know what number or what proportion, of the officers who were entitled to retire have retired, and does the Minister take into account the possibility of very many more retirements on pension unless the general irritation which, I understand, the officers feel they are now obliged to submit to is eased somewhat?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

Since Deputy Johnson gave notice, I made inquiries about the condition of the cells in Mountjoy that were used for men under sentence of death, and the position is, roughly, as described by the Deputy. The dimensions of the ordinary cells in Mountjoy are 13 ft. long, 7 ft. wide, and 8½ft. high. Certain special large cells, differing from the ordinary cells in that they are three times as wide, were used for the custody of men under sentence of death. There are at present in Mountjoy Prison four men condemned to death. There were two large cells, which are really constructed of three ordinary cells knocked into one. One of these cells was destroyed by military prisoners, and is not at the moment available. There is, therefore, only one of these large cells available in the prison. That means that two of the men will have to be kept in ordinary cells. It is true, as the Deputy says, that the humane practice prevailed in the past of endeavouring to make the conditions as tolerable as possible for men awaiting execution, but you are limited by your realities, and by your resources. When two large cells are not available, and when there are four men under sentence of death, then it becomes a question of simply doing what you reasonably can.

In fact, what has happened is that one of these men is occupying the large cell and the other three are occupying three ordinary cells. The cell that was destroyed, and that was in course of repair, will, I understand, be available to-night. That will mean that two men will have the special large cell which was usual, and only two will be in the ordinary-sized cells. We tried to meet the situation by placing only one warder in charge, whereas in the case of the large cell with one man under sentence, two warders were with him constantly day and night. In the smaller-sized cell, which at present, of necessity, has to be used, only one warder is engaged on that duty. The medical report is to the effect that the prisoners, who were seen by the medical member of the Prisons Board on Tuesday, stated that they had everything they wanted and had no complaints to make, that they were in good health and satisfied and even pleased with the treatment they were receiving. That is the official information at my disposal. With regard to the point the Deputy has raised about the position of Chairman it will not be filled.

Mr. JOHNSON

Before the Minister passes from that will he say whether it is not possible to shorten the number of hours which the official has to remain in charge of the condemned men?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

I want to be clear as to whether that representation is put forward on behalf of the official or on behalf of the men.

Mr. JOHNSON

It is put forward from my own belief that a long time in company with a condemned man is bad both for the condemned man and the official.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

That is a matter that I would undertake to inquire into —the notice has been short. I understand the limitation is because permanent officers have to be engaged in that particular duty, and the number of permanent officers available is somewhat limited. I will undertake that if it is possible to do anything in the direction suggested by the Deputy it will be done.

Now it is not proposed to fill the position of Chairman of the Board and generally the future administration of the prison service is a matter that, at leisure, and when the pressure on the Department eases off, would need to be looked into and overhauled. The Board is scarcely functioning now as a Board; it is simply acting as headquarters of the prison service, answering for the Department on all major matters, and seeking instruction upon any important matters that arise.

Sir JAMES CRAIG

Is it admitted that the attendant is kept for ten hours in the cell with the condemned man?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

No, not ten hours. Eight or nine hours.

Sir JAMES CRAIG

The statement by Deputy Johnson is ten hours, and I was going to suggest that ten hours was too long for any warder or attendant to be confined in a cell with a condemned man.

Mr. JOHNSON

Would the Deputy say that eight or nine hours is too long?

Sir JAMES CRAIG

Even so, I think it is necessary that a change should be made in that direction.

Mr. O'HIGGINS

Before I pass from that I would make it clear that the eight or nine hours' spell is only at night. Prisoners under sentence of death get as much open air and exercise as is reasonably practicable to give them, and are allowed many other ameliorations denied to ordinary prisoners.

Sir JAMES CRAIG

Would the attendant at night be asleep or is he bound to keep awake?

Mr. O'HIGGINS

He would not be asleep.

Vote put and agreed to.