Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 25 Jul 1924

Vol. 8 No. 20

DAIL IN COMMITTEE. - STATE LANDS BILL, 1924—THIRD STAGE.

Section 1 put and agreed to.

SECTION 2.

(1) Where the Minister for Finance proposes to make or grant a lease or licence under this Act he shall lay before each House of the Oireachtas a statement showing the person to whom such lease or licence is proposed to be made or granted, the property proposed to be included in such lease or licence, the fine, rent or other payments (if any) proposed to be charged for such lease or licence, and the covenants, conditions and agreements proposed to be inserted in such lease or licence.

(2) No lease or licence shall be made or granted under this Act until the expiration of fourteen days from whichever of the following days shall be the later, that is to say—

(a) the first day on which Dáil Eireann shall sit next after the statement in accordance with this section shall have been laid before Dáil Eireann, and

(b) the first day on which Seanad Eireann shall sit next after the statement in accordance with this section shall have been laid before Seanad Eireann.

(3) This section shall not apply to any lease or licence which may be made or granted under this Act and and within six months after the passing therof in relation to any of the lands and buildings specified in the Schedule to this Act or to any part of those lands or buildings.

The PRESIDENT

Deputy Johnson has an amendment down to Section 2. I have circulated an amendment which I think Deputy Johnson will be prepared to accept. It is:—

"To delete Sub-section (2) and to insert in lieu therof the following two new sub-sections:—

(2) No lease or licence shall be made or granted under this Act until (either)

(a) each House of the Oireachtas has by resolution authorised the making or granting of such lease or licence either with or without modification of all or any of the proposed provisions or such lease or licence; or

(b) until the expiration of whichever of the following periods shall be the longest, that is to say:

(i) twenty-one days after the first day on which either House of the Oireachtas shall sit next after the statement in accordance with this section shall have been laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas; or

(ii) twelve days on which either House of the Oireachtas shall have sat after the said statement shall have been so laid before the Houses.

(3) Where a resolution of either House of the Oireachtas authorises the making or granting of a licence under this Act subject to any modification of the proposed provisions of such lease or licence, such lease or licence shall not be granted save with and subject to such modification of its provisions.

I think that that meets the objection that was raised that a lease might be granted, and that the information would not be before the Dáil in time. I think that this amendment would meet the case that Deputy Johnson desires to secure. Accordingly I move it.

Mr. JOHNSON

I think that from what I have heard read of the new amendment it will cover the purposes that I had in mind. I would like to see the draft. But in the meantime I would like to say that I would prefer some such amendment as that which I have put down, that any such lease or licence shall be confirmed by an actual Act of the Oireachtas. The provision made by the Minister does meet most of the objection that I had against giving over to a Minister the right to make a lease of State lands subject only to the very doubtful check which Sub-section (2) of Section 2 would give the Oireachtas.

Having read the amendment, I am afraid that it does not meet all the requirements. All it will do will be to give an opportunity to either House to take action. This has no reference to the general question, quite apart from the leases referred to in the Schedule. With regard to the general question, the amendment proposed by the President leaves it optional with either House of the Oireachtas to take action in the matter of any lease. I want to suggest that what is necessary is that no such lease will become effective until a formal resolution of approval has been passed by the Oireachtas. Without that I think that the conditions in the resolution are not being fulfilled. It seems to me that we must have positive action by the Oireachtas in favour of the proposed lease or licence. I thought that was the proposition of the President.

The PRESIDENT

Sub-section (a) says "each House of the Oireachtas has, by resolution, authorised the making or granting of such lease or licence." I thought that that would meet the case put up by Deputy Johnson.

Mr. JOHNSON

But at the end of that paragraph (a) is the word "or."

The PRESIDENT

That was to meet the case that I mentioned to Deputy Johnson in private, if I might give expression to it in public—that cases might arise when the Houses might not be sitting and when there would be difficulty in getting a resolution passed. But if Deputy Johnson thinks that his wishes in the matter are not met, I propose to leave out from the word "or" down to the end. I thought I was giving him an advantage in putting in that.

Major COOPER

I do not think Deputy Johnson's proposition is a practical one. He suggests that no lease be valid unless it is confirmed by an Act of the Oireachtas. I do not think any person would try to secure a lease subject to that condition, because he cannot foretell what will happen. The Government have not got an absolute majority of this House, if all the parties unite against them. Then, as to the Seanad— nobody can say what the Seanad will do. They have not a party system there yet. It is impossible to say what the result would be there. No man will enter into an engagement which was likely to be upset by forces he could not help. I think the President's suggestion probably goes as far as is safe. I was going to make a suggestion— that Deputy Johnson's amendment was out of order because it would nullify the effect of the Bill. No same man would enter into a business engagement subject to the passing of an Act of this kind, because the disabilities are so innumerable that it would be impossible to tell where he stood. Conditions might be attached and unexpected clauses might be put into the Bill in Committee. It is not a business proposition at all.

Mr. JOHNSON

I think Deputy Cooper has missed the point. The lease is not entered into until it is signed by some person on behalf of the lessor. If the lessor is a principal. It must be referred to the principal. In this case the lessor is the Oireachtas. And the lease is not entered into until it has the sanction of the lessor. It may be necessary to say it shall be confirmed or rejected without amendment. That is quite satisfactory to me. I want the Dáil to be able to say that this particular proposal to let or lease State lands or property shall not be done by a Minister without the formal sanction of the Oireachtas. I am not suggesting that it shall be within the province of the Oireachtas to make amendments to the proposed lease.

That is quite a different matter. I want this to be dealt with as certain Provisional Orders and the like are dealt with—accepted or rejected. Unless we adopt that position, it seems to me that we are renouncing responsibility. We do not know the extent of the value of the State lands which it is proposed in the Bill to give power to the Minister to make leases of. The check that was proposed in the Bill originally was that the information should be put before the Dáil in a certain fashion. The Minister now proposes to amend the provisions of the Bill as drafted but he does not proposed to make obligatory that before the lease becomes a valid legal document it shall have the formal sanction of the Dáil. That is what I want to ensure.

Major COOPER

Deputy Johnson's proposal is not Deputy Johnson's amendment. The amendment says nothing about Provisional Orders or the Provisional Orders Confirmation Act. It says "by formal Act of the Oireachtas" and subject to your ruling, A Chinn Comhairle, if a Bill of that kind is brought in, I or any other Deputy would have the right to move an amendment in Committee which might alter the scope or nature of the Bill to a very considerable degree. Deputy Johnson's other point is of course sound, that an agent is bound by his principal. That is a practical proposition where there is one principal or where there are two principals or even a Board of Directors of 5 or 6 of a company. In this case there will be 160 principals—60 in the Seanad and 100 in the Dáil. Nobody is going to enter into agreement with a body of that kind. The real principal in a matter of this kind is the Minister responsible to the Dáil. That, I think, a sound constitutional principle. It is in accordance with the Constitution and, as Deputy Johnson knows, it is in accordance with Parliamentary practice elsewhere. If we wish to get the formal consent of the Oireachtas, that is usually best secured by way of resolution. That obviates a Committee Stage and the introduction of amendments and gives us a plain "yes" or "no." If he is proposing that the lease shall not be valid until a resolution of the Oireachtas confirms it, I would be inclined to go a long way with him but if he wants an Act, I cannot go that distance with him.

The PRESIDENT

The amendment we are putting up specifies that one of three things shall happen—a formal resolution—and I take it such a resolution would be necessary from both Houses in order to secure the immediate granting of the lease; failing that, it provides for a period of 21 days after the first day on which either House of the Oireachtas shall sit after the statement has been laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas; that is to say, each House must sit and must have the particulars of this lease or licence before it; there is the third proviso in respect of 12 days on which either House of the Oireachtas shall have sat, so that the lease or licence cannot be entered into without the knowledge at least of both Houses of the Oireachtas. In that case should it occur to any member of either House that it is inadvisable to grant that lease or licence, it is open to him to get a resolution passed. There have been, I think, occasions upon which one House has not met for a month. I am not so sure that I am right in that, but I think I am not far out. In that case we would be held up from granting a lease, and I think that is unreasonable. If the House met and had the question before it on one particular day, and did not meet for six weeks or two months afterwards, that particular piece of legislation would be isolated, and perhaps dropped, because in matters of this kind, as a rule, people want a settlement in a short space of time. I think those three provisions—that the lease or licence cannot be granted without knowledge of either House, that if there be objection either House or both Houses have the opportunity of objecting, and in the third case, the 21 days provision, simply make for easing the machinery of Government.

Mr. A. BYRNE

May I ask whether the lands described include the Phoenix Park, and if a proposal came from some person for the leasing of the Under-Secretary's Lodge and surrounding grounds, whether before that lease would be given the Dáil would have an opportunity of discussing the matter?

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

That is a separate question. It is not a question of what lands are at stake. It is a question of how leases should be granted.

Mr. A. BYRNE

Then I am not entitled to put the question?

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

If the Deputy will allow us to get this point settled, he will get an opportunity later on.

Mr. JOHNSON

Would the Minister agree to delete the word "or" at the end of paragraph A, and say "before"? It is almost impossible to discuss a matter of this kind in this way.

The PRESIDENT

I shall hold this over until the Estimates have been dealt with, if Deputy Johnson wishes, so as not to take an undue advantage of him.

Mr. JOHNSON

Would the President agree, if we allow the Bill to pass with these amendments, to consider embodying what I think is fairly well agreed to as an amendment in the Seanad?

The PRESIDENT

That is a very difficult question.

Mr. JOHNSON

I do not want the President to bind himself, but I ask that he keep an open mind in the matter.

The PRESIDENT

I would undertake that.

Mr. JOHNSON

I do not want to make it appear that I am trying to obstruct this Bill, which may have valuable effects on housing, but I want to retain within the Oireachtas control, such as is specified in the Constitution, and to refuse to give Ministers in the future such licence as may allow them to play havoc with State property.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

That, I take it, means the withdrawal of amendments 1, 2, 3 and 4.

Mr. JOHNSON

I am willing to withdraw my amendments to Section 2 in view of what the President has said.

Amendment proposed by the President put and agreed to.

The PRESIDENT

I beg to move:—

Section 2, Sub-section (3), line 11, to delete the word "six" and to insert in lieu thereof the word "three."

That means that the Ministry has only got three months in which to operate on the Schedule. We are limited to a period of three months—we were taking six—and the Dáil will reassemble towards the end of October. This would just provide for any lease or licence in respect of the six places mentioned in the Schedule in the intervening period.

Amendment put and agreed to.

The PRESIDENT

I beg to move:—

Section 2, sub-section (3), line 14, to add after the word "buildings" the words "and in accordance with the proposals specified in the said Schedule."

The Schedule as it stands is informative only to the extent of identifying the premises. An alternative schedule will be moved which gives particulars of the lands and buildings, the purpose of the proposed lease or licence, the proposed lessee or licensee, the duration of the proposed lease or licence, and the terms of the proposed lease or licence. There are particulars furnished in respect to No. 1 and No. 2. As to No. 3, the particulars as to the proposed lessee or licencee are not furnished, nor are the terms of the proposed lease or licence furnished. Perhaps it would be better to discuss that on the Schedule.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

I take it that we will discuss the whole question of what lands it applies to on the schedule.

Amendment put and agreed to.

Mr. JOHNSON

I do not know whether it is acceptable to the Minister, but quite apart from the question of the new Schedule I suggested that in respect of these premises named in the Schedule an addendum to the sub-section might be considered. I should like to have the Minister's views on it. It reads:—

At the end of Sub-section (3) of Section 2, to add: "Provided that every such lease or licence as is referred to in this Schedule shall be lodged with the clerks of Dáil Eireann and Seanad Eireann respectively for fourteen days before final signature by the Minister."

That would have the effect of ensuring in respect of these premises that, at least, the form of the authority of the Dáil and the Seanad would be acknowledged.

The PRESIDENT

The acceptance of that amendment would involve to some extent want of confidence in the Minister, but I would be prepared to accept it. Some of the particulars are not set forth. It is a reasonable suggestion and I am prepared to accept it.

Mr. JOHNSON

I hope the President is not taking this as referring to any particular want of confidence in the present Ministers.

The PRESIDENT

Certainly not.

Mr. JOHNSON

I am jealous of the rights of the Oireachtas in these matters, over and above the Ministerial authority of any kind and at any time.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

I have not considered any of these amendments. I have had no opportunity. As to Deputy Johnson's proposed amendment, what is the idea of lodging them with the Clerk?

Mr. JOHNSON

In future, after this period of three months is passed, the Dáil will be made aware of what agreements are proposed to be entered into. In the case of these properties, the Dáil is asked to forego that authority, shall I say. All I desire to accomplish is that it shall be open to a Deputy or a Senator to see these documents, if he desires to do so, and, if he thinks there is something very flagrant by chance happening, that at least he will have the right to call attention to it publicly. At any rate, it is conserving, perhaps not in an ideal way, but at least in a way, certain rights to the Dáil and Seanad, through their officers, over acts of the Ministry.

The PRESIDENT

Would the Deputy accept this undertaking from me: that, in respect of each one of these leases or licences which we propose to grant, the Clerk of the Dáil and the Clerk of the Seanad will be afforded an opportunity of seeing that they are in accordance with what is put down in the Schedule?

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

That is imposing a great new duty upon the Clerks.

The PRESIDENT

I see a great difficulty in what the Deputy suggests. We draw up a lease or a licence, and for fourteen days it is held up in the Dáil or the Seanad office. From the point of view of business, there is involved a delay of fourteen days, which business men might not be particularly satisfied with. Take the Clonmel case. There the utmost possible expedition is necessary in the interests of the local authority. I explained what the situation was and why, ordinarily, I would be prepared to furnish all the information necessary. I take it that under the proposed amendment there would be bound to be delay and that it would scarcely serve the purpose mentioned by the Deputy. In these cases all the information that we have available is set forth, and it is unusual in a Bill of this sort so clearly to state every purpose in connection with it. If there is a doubt regarding the action of the Minister in letting, I think it would certainly be open to every Deputy to indict the Finance Minister. But the purpose for which the lettings are taking place is set down; also the proposed licencee, where there is such a person; the duration of the proposed lease or licence, and the terms are set forth. It would be obviously much worse than a breach of good faith if any departure from it were to be tolerated. In these circumstances I think the amendment is not necessary. While I am sure that the Deputy had not the faintest suspicion in his mind that the Minister for Finance would violate the duties of his office, it is certainly open to that construction.

Mr. JOHNSON

I should say that the amendment I put forward was drawn up before I saw the particulars in the Schedule. If the Minister says there is a difficulty in the matter I will not press the point, though I feel that in the two cases here, for instance, where no lease and no engagement is yet entered into, we are giving power for three months for such an engagement to be entered into without any check whatever.

The PRESIDENT

That is three and four.

Mr. JOHNSON

I do not want even to appear to make a precedent of that kind.

The PRESIDENT

Let us see where we are with regard to three and four. We have the land there, but nothing else. We have a liability on the State in respect of whatever compensation should be paid for the erection of the buildings there. To that extent, I think there is sufficient safeguard for the Oireachtas, because the premises, if sold, would not, in my opinion, realise the amount that would be decreed in respect of them. They are probably four, or possibly five-storied premises with basements, and the cost of construction, apart from anything else, would, in my opinion, more than equal the selling value of the premises.

Mr. JOHNSON

I do not move the amendment.

Amendment not moved.

Question put—"That Section 2, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

Mr. A. BYRNE

I desire to ask if the Phoenix Park is covered in this Bill, and if any steps have been taken for the letting of the Under-Secretary's Lodge and the surrounding grounds? Will the Dáil have an opportunity of discussing that matter before any decision is come to? My reason for asking is that in the vicinity of the Lodge there is a great shortage of ground for football, cycling and sports clubs. They have made application for ground but cannot get it. I understand there may be an application from someone for the letting of the Under-Secretary's Lodge, which takes in a considerable quantity of ground. As the Phoenix Park is a public park, I do not think any letting should be made without the approval of the Dáil.

The PRESIDENT

If it comes under the description of State lands and that it is either a lease or a licence, the answer is contained in this measure. If they are not State lands, that is another question.

Major COOPER

It is rather serious if public parks are included in this Bill. That has not been fully realised up to this. While I do not doubt the intentions of the Government are to preserve parks in their present state, and I do not want to hamper them in disposing of the Under-Secretary's and Chief Secretary's Lodges, as I think they ought to be disposed of, still, if there is the possibility of a President, say, coming from the Farmers' Party proposing to turn Stephen's Green into a grazing ground, or if some other Party in office were to use the whole Phoenix Park for training race horses it would be a very great loss to the people of the country as a whole. The amendments that have been made will in some direction meet that danger, but, before the Report Stage, I think the President should consider the desirability of excluding places used as public parks or places of recreation other than buildings that happen to be in the parks.

The PRESIDENT

There is every opportunity for a member of the Dáil or of the Seanad to bring a matter of that sort before either or both Houses of the Oireachtas. I think any proposal of that kind would be very seriously criticised. I am not in a position to say whether the Phoenix Park comes within the description of State lands. In fact, I was under the impression last year that it would be necessary to introduce a measure dealing with the Phoenix Park. I cannot say whether that is the case or not, but every opportunity would be afforded Deputies to express their views on that. Granted that State lands include the Phoenix Park, all the safeguards put into this measure are still intact. Having regard to these safeguards, I do not think there is much danger of what Deputy Cooper suggests.

Mr. JOHNSON

Deputies will now see that my pertinacity was not uncalled for.

Question put and agreed to.

Section 3 put and agreed to.

NEW SCHEDULE.

The PRESIDENT

I beg to move:—

To delete the Schedule and insert in lieu thereof the following new schedule:—

Lands and Buildings	Purpose of proposed lease or licence	Proposed lessee or licensee	Duration of proposed lease or licence	Terms of proposed lease or licence
1. The lands and buildings formerly known as Richmond Barracks and now known as Keogh Barracks, situate in the City of Dublin.	Housing of the working classes.	Council of the County Borough of Dublin.	99 years	Terms to be settled by arbitration.
2. The lands and buildings known as Nos. 23, 24 and 25 Pearse St., situate in the Parish of St. Mark and City of Dublin.	Commercial purposes. Premises no longer required for State purposes.	Mr. B.B. Hopkins, Tailor & Outfitter, 26 Pearse Street, Dublin.	99 years	Payment of fine of £1625 and sub-leases for 99 years on same terms as the premises are held by the State. No. 23 is held on lease expiring in September, 1930, at a rent of £60 per annum, lessor paying rates, and from September, 1930, on lease for 900 years at a rent of £70 per annum, lessee paying rates. Nos. 24 and 25 are held on lease for 999 years from 1904, at a rent of £140 per annum, lessor paying rates.
3. The lands and buildings known as No. 14 Upper Sackville St. (commonly called Upper O'Connell Street) situate, in the Parish of St. Thomas and City of Dublin.	Commercial or other purposes. Site no longer required for State purposes.	—	Will not exceed 99 years.	—
4. The lands and buildings known as No. 15 Upper Sackville St. (commonly called Upper O'Connell St.), situate in the Parish of St. Thomas and City of Dublin.	Commercial or other purposes. Site no longer required for State purposes.	—	Will not exceed 99 years.	—
5. Part of the lands of Tallaght, now or lately used as an aerodrome and known as Tallaght Aerodrome, containing nine acres or thereabouts, statute measure, situate in the Barony of Uppercross and County of Dublin.	Commercial purposes. Premises no longer required for State purposes.	Messrs. Urney Chocolates, Ltd., 14 Lr. O'Connell St. Dublin.	99 years	A rent of £50 per annum for the land. A rentcharge of £300 a year running for 15 years, in consideration of the buildings, lessees to pay rates. Water to be supplied at rate to be agreed upon. Fencing and sewage tank to be maintained by lesses.
6. The lands and buildings situate in King Street, in the town of Clonmel and South Riding of the County of Tipperary, comprising a rifle range and military drill and exercise ground, and containing eighteen acres three roods and thirty-eight perches, or thereabouts, Statute Measure.	Housing of the working classes.	Clonmel Urban District Council.	99 years	Terms to be settled by arbitration.

The Schedule is now much more complete. Practically all the information that is available, certainly the purpose and the particulars and so on, are set forth in the Schedule with the exception of three and four, in respect of which I think there is no great danger. It is necessary to include these. I do not know to what extent proposals have gone forward to make a new street from O'Connell Street into Gloucester Street. If such proposals eventuate, these particular premises offer every opportunity for carrying out the development of the thorough fares without any interference with existing holdings as the space occupied by these premises allows of such slight alterations in the particular location of the various premises to permit of that being done.

Question put and agreed to.

Title ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Bill ordered to be reported with amendments.