The amount estimated for Old Age Pensions for 1924-25 is £2,919,200, which shows a reduction of £357,800 from the previous year's estimate. The decrease of £358,000 under sub-head A is due to the reduction in all existing pensions, except in the cases of pensions of persons who attained the age of 80 years on the 20th June, 1924, and the difference between the number of deaths of pensioners and the number of new pensions granted. I should say that I am rather anxious to get this Vote through, because we have already expended the amount which has been granted.
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE. - VOTE 7—OLD AGE PENSIONS.
"That a sum not exceeding £1,919,200 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1925, for Old Age Pensions under the Old Age Pensions Act, 1908 to 1924, for certain Administrative Expenses in connection therewith, and for Pensions under the Blind Persons Act, 1920."
There is one particular matter that I should like to bring before the Dáil in connection with this Vote, and that is the system that is at present being adopted throughout the country by the inspectors. It is nearly impossible for applicants for old age pensions who are not able to produce birth certificates to establish their claims for the pension. We have been told here in the Dáil on very many occasions, in reply to questions and in reply to Deputies who raised the matter on motions for the adjournment, that if there was a sworn affidavit forthcoming from a person of good standing—what that may mean I do not know—the pension would be granted. But I am sure that nearly every Deputy in the Dáil has a number of cases brought under his notice—cases in which affidavits have been made and in which the persons who have been making application for the pension have gone to the utmost extent possible to try and comply with the requirements of the Department in this connection, and in which notwithstanding this fact the applications have been turned down. It would save Deputies in this House and the people who are applying for old age pensions a great deal of trouble if the President would tell us what is required of an applicant for an old age pension in order to establish the claim. There is no doubt that there is a very large volume of dissatisfaction throughout the country on this particular question. Another matter which is creating a great deal of unrest and dissatisfaction is the way in which the means of an applicant is calculated by the inspector. I have had a number of cases brought under my notice, and I most certainly say that the method adopted means defrauding the old people of what they are justly entitled to. Since the cut has been put into force by this Government, there has been a tightening up of the administration to such an extent that it is almost impossible for any person to get an old age pension at the present time. This is a very genuine grievance, and it would assist Deputies in this House and the people in the country who are making applications for old age pensions if the Ministry would say definitely what is required of persons who make applications and who cannot produce birth certificates.
I wish to support the Deputy who has just spoken in the case which he has made in regard to the method of fixing what the amount of the income is. I have had put before me this week the case of an old lady who had not a penny piece in the world. She might have gone into the Union were it not for a niece of hers who said that she would keep her out. When the old lady reached the age of seventy years she and the niece prepared an application for an old age pension and sent it in. The visiting Inspector tried to prove that the old lady was enjoying fairly comfortable means. I took up the case. What was the result? They stated that as this old lady is kept in fairly comfortable circumstances by her niece, no pension can be paid. I have done my utmost to trace under what part of the Act voluntary help like that can be held to exclude a person from the right to the pension. It is given by a girl in business in the city earning little more than is sufficient to keep herself, but who, when she saw this old relative in needy circumstances, took her in and shared her room with her. And in the old lady's share of the room the pensions officer has put a value of six shillings a week; from this class of shelter that the old lady has got he decides that she has got an income of the value of six shillings a week. I do not think that was intended by the Act. I would ask the Minister if he would cause to be circulated to his officials a notification that such was not intended, and that they are not there to do everything they possibly can to whittle down the claims of these people, and instead that, if anything, they should go out of their way to assist the really deserving cases. I will give the President the name of the person I referred to, and I will send him all the correspondence if he cares to go through it, but I do not think that persons when they reach the age of 70 if they are provided for by some cousin, niece or distant relative with bed and shelter, should have that classed as income. Under the Act it should not be described as income, and I hope the President will see that those responsible for the investigation of the cases will change their attitude. This week I had a few cases, where I found it impossible to trace or get any evidence of age of a few very poor, old people, though every effort was made. We got a communication from the parish priest that records had been destroyed by fire, and information from the local districts in which they were born that records had not been kept at a certain date. Those people are going round without anybody to assist them. I think some latitude should be given to the Old Age Pensions Department in cases where they are satisfied that reasonable effort has been made to secure evidence of age, and where two or three members are satisfied that the person is 70 years of age and deserving of the pension, and that the mere fact that they cannot produce a certificate, or a sworn declaration from some person older than themselves, should not debar them from receiving what they are entitled to under the Act.
I also desire to be associated with Deputy Morrissey in his protest as to the valuation of means, and more particularly I speak with reference to the revision of means of persons who have been in receipt of pensions for many years. I have in mind cases of people who gave up their land in 1909 to their children, and who received the pension but have now been deprived of it. I am afraid that is hardly equitable. It is contended, I know, on behalf of the Department that these people were not really entitled to a pension in 1909, or in any subsequent year. But were the officials who served under the old regime incompetent, or wanting in their duties to the State? I do not think that could be seriously contended, and even if it were, have not these old people by custom or toleration got something approaching a vested interest in the pension? We should not put anyone out of any annuity or pension, certainly we should not arbitrarily deprive them of it. Some allowance should be made, but, unfortunately, in many instances old farmers in the country have been altogether deprived of their pension. When they first received the pension farming conditions were much better, and there was some money to be made in the land, whereas at present nothing can be made out of it. It is a sad commentary on the state of agriculture that in many cases old-age pensions were devoted to maintaining not alone themselves, but their children and grandchildren.
The case has been very well made regarding people who are deprived of what they are justly entitled to under the Old-Age Pensions Act on the grounds of being unable to procure evidence of age, and also because they have what is considered sufficient means to maintain them. I have tried to bring home to the Minister responsible the effect this has in the country, and so have many of the Deputies, but in vain. I could produce 30 or 40 concrete cases in proof of the contentions that have been put forward here. I will give one instance to the Minister and he will see what exactly is the position. An old woman made a claim for a pension. She was not able to prove her age, but her claim was granted by the Pensions Committee. The award was appealed against on the grounds that no evidence of age could be produced. On my advice she repeated her application for the pension which was granted, and again appealed against, and now the third appeal has been made. This claimant's younger sister is 69 years, and her older brother, 75 years of age. I find that in order to delay the beneficial effects of the Act a claim made to the Pensions Officer last February has not yet been submitted to the Pensions Committee. These are cases that should be looked into. I have another case where a claim made on a pensions officer 15 months ago has not yet been handed in to the Pensions Committee. These are hardships. The reduction of the amounts given and refusal of pensions owing to being unable to produce evidence of age, are factors making for discontent amongst those genuinely entitled to old age pensions.
Under the Old Age Pensions Act the yearly value of any benefit or privilege enjoyed by a claimant must be taken into account when calculating means for Old-Age Pension purposes. Consequently, maintenance must be included, and a Minister, official, or anybody else has no right to instruct a Pensions Officer, to the contrary. A good deal of criticism has been passed on the officers engaged on this particular work. I had experience of these officers years ago, and I found them very fair, sometimes generous, very generous. I would like to know whether the experience is the same in the country as in the city of Dublin. I do not recollect any claim being refused by the City of Dublin Pension Committee. Every claim was passed. I believe that if we were assessed ourselves for the payment of these pensions we would not have been by any means so generous. The fact is, that this particular service is costing much the same—there is not a remarkable difference between the sums put down in respect of Old Age Pensions in 1923-24 and 1924-25. We have already exceeded the amount put down for the first four months of this year—that is, £1,000,000 has been spent, and more than that. The fact is, that in 1924 the population has gone down very considerably from the time that this Pensions Act was first introduced. When it was first introduced in 1909 the cases dealt with the population of 1839, and the people who were seventy years of age in 1909 came from a population of seven or eight millions.
From 1839 until 1854, which is the particular period we are dealing with, there had been a very considerable reduction in the population, but the fact is that this particular service has not shown a corresponding reduction in the amount. We seem to be dealing all the time with a population far in excess of anticipations, and I think that some of the allegations of these applicants that they are up to seventy years of age are not supported by the facts of the cases. As I said, my experience of these officers when they were operating under the British Government was that they were fair.
The President did not apply for a pension to one of them?
No, I did not, but I got some pensions through. I got a number for persons who were not 70 years of age, and I believe many others did the same, and because these facilities are withdrawn and they are operating on a much leaner purse there is bound to be dissatisfaction and criticism. I admit that there is a drawback by reason of the destruction of the census records. There are other methods of finding out ages, and the difficulties cannot have increased in every possible way. When I was a member of an Old Age Pensions Committee I think fairly substantial weight was given to a marriage certificate, and I do not think it was a condition precedent that the person should be 21 years of age, even at that time, and it is well known that seventy or eighty years ago they married much younger than 21, and the advantage in regard to that is to the person making a claim for a pension now.
That consideration is not given now. No consideration is given to marriage certificates now.
I do not think I could subscribe to that. I believe that the usual evidence that is accepted in respect of a marriage certificate is 20, and there is sometimes no disposition at all to make enquiries as to age. I remember on one occasion pushing the claim of a person who certainly looked beyond 70 years of age, and after bringing the matter three times before the Pensions Committee the Pensions Officer told me that he had a birth certificate showing that the age of the man was 65. He had all the appearance of being over 70. If there are cases of delay, as mentioned by Deputy Hogan. I would like to get particulars of them.
I will give you particulars of two.
Very good. I will look into these.
I am afraid the President has failed to meet the point raised by Deputy Morrissey, and that is the new instructions that have been given to pensions officers with respect to the valuation of perquisites. I do not believe that it was ever the intention or ever the practice to count as a perquisite what was quite optional, charity, if you like to use that word, with respect to old men or women, the father or mother, or other relative, who might at any time be put on the road.
It was to my own knowledge.
Well, the President has been pretty successful in getting through Acts of Parliament, and if he wants to undo much of the damage he has done he would put through an Act very quickly remedying that particular fault. If by the action of the pensions administration you are going to invite persons to turn out their old people so that they will then be able to go for the pension, which is the interpretation which the Minister has given—
That is what they must do.
Then I think it is a very grave fault. The Minister says it was done. It may have been done in some places; it certainly was not general to value as a perquisite the bread and milk and tea, and the rest, that the relatives of an old man or woman provided at their option. But there has certainly been a very stringent tightening of that regulation. The valuation has gone up within the last twelve months. If the perquisites were valued at £10 a year or two years ago they are valued at £15 or £20 to-day, and it is a sort of closing of the shears, the pensions cut on the one hand, the re-valuation of the perquisites on the other, and in between the two the pensioner is having the cut in very truth. If the President says that this is purely a matter of legislation, of course, we cannot say anything, but many legislative faults are remedied by beneficent, thoughtful, sympathetic administration, and I am sorry to say that the evidence forthcoming is that the administration has been inspired by what is called economy, meaning the saving of money at the expense of the comfort of old men and old women.
May I say if the President's reading of the Act that maintenance must be taken into consideration, that is voluntary support given by distant relatives, it will mean that no person will ever get a pension because the maintenance charged against somebody brings them up to the value of the amount of income disqualifying them from an old age pension. No person at all can get a pension if his reading of the Act is put into operation by his officials.
That was the reading of the Act when I was a member of a Pensions Committee, and during that time more pensions were passed than since or before.
We can get none now.
Vote put and agreed to.